Who is using CPM D2

[nozh2002]

What in the heck are you talking about......

That has to be the most uneducated statement I have ever read regarding steels.

By that statement you are implying that one cold take a knife made out of pot metal and it would hold an edge forever.

Leaves to go beat head against the wall......

Yes, I do reject all "education" I get from reading blade forums and count only my own real tests. I do not have any regular metallurgical education. As well as you, I bet. However, I am MS in Math. What is your level of education?

Now CPM S90V as well as CPM 10V show same results and they are not at the top at all. Reason I may think - huge content of alien Vanadium Carbides which make steel matrix weak and so edge (not blade side surface) wear out easy because not too much steel to hold all this "sand" - vanadium Carbides. If we are talking about flat surface (which wear resistance test dealing with) not very edge it will be different story.

This is why CPM D2 outperforms CPM S90V and CPM 10V - 9% of "sand" in steel does not make better edge.

So Kershaw CPM D2 performs better then CPM S90V, cost much less and less wear resistant - which make it easier to sharpen using inferior sharpening tools like water stones etc (different then DMT) as well as easier to bring to high sharpness with polish.

Rake to me is perfect deal - around $80, with composite blade, G10 scales etc... and performs better then any CPM S90V (will be over $200).

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[CrimsonTideShooter]

Well when someone makes a statement that makes no since at all and goes against everything that is metallurgy then yeah I beat my head against the wall.

I started laughing when I read that....

Yeah, D2 will never outperform S90V, not on this planet anyway...

Oh that wasn't a jab at you. It seems like every time someone talks steel nohz comes in and spouts some outrageous claim as fact.

There was some facepalming happening on this end too.

 

[crom]

My 2 cents. I dinged the edge up a bit on my g10 Tyrade over the weekend when I carelessly hit the edge of my concrete porch wall. The dings sharpened out nicely, they are almost gone with one-sittings worth of work to the edge with a diamond stone and ceramic rods. If I had done that to one of my other "regular" D2 knives, I'd have had a much harder time getting the edge back. For some reason the cpmD2 sharpens more easily, does this mean it's softer? I don't think so but I do like that attribute.

 

[Danbo]

Not sure how S90V got into a discussion about CPM D2, but I'll just add again that CPM D2 is some really good stuff. Easier to work with as a knifemaker; easier to finish, etc... As a user, I find that it takes a better edge than regular D2, too. I like CPM D2 enough that, when I first heard that Crucible was having problems and that they were only going to make the 2 melts of CPM D2, I scrambled around and bought all I could.

 

[iandh]

Not sure how S90V got into a discussion about CPM D2, but I'll just add again that CPM D2 is some really good stuff. Easier to work with as a knifemaker; easier to finish, etc... As a user, I find that it takes a better edge than regular D2, too. I like CPM D2 enough that, when I first heard that Crucible was having problems and that they were only going to make the 2 melts of CPM D2, I scrambled around and bought all I could.

Do you mean they aren't making CPM-D2 anymore, or just not until they get it sorted?

 

[Tsujigiri]

Haha I saw Vassili's post last night, and woke up this morning looking forward to the responses. I'm surprised he hasn't mentioned his assertion that CTS-XHP is the super bestest steel ever made yet...

 

[Ankerson]

Oh that wasn't a jab at you. It seems like every time someone talks steel nohz comes in and spouts some outrageous claim as fact.

There was some facepalming happening on this end too.

Yeah, I am still laughing.

And after that last post I was laughing so hard I fell out of my chair....

 

[Noctis3880]

Haha I saw Vassili's post last night, and woke up this morning looking forward to the responses. I'm surprised he hasn't mentioned his assertion that CTS-XHP is the super bestest steel ever made yet...

Well technically CTS-XHP would be what you call a "stainless" version of CPM-D2. I personally don't find it to be that big a step up in terms of stain resistance as both my Manix 2 and XM-18 in CTS-XHP have rusted on me. Though admittedly my Speedform with CPM-D2 spine had rusted even more aggressively(might be due to the bead blast finish though), my Dozier Buffalo River Hunter in the regular flavor of D2 has yet to get even a patina(though I admittedly polished the entire blade).

However, Ankerson tested better performance than CPM-D2 at Rc62, and I suspect the XHP blade was at Rc 60-60.5(seems to be where Rick Hinderer has his). I'd also imagine that toughness is up there if Rick uses it, and I haven't observed any chipping on the edge(Ankerson didn't mention it either).

Given that the datasheet says the steel can be treated to Rc64, it would be very interesting to test a blade in that hardness.

In all fairness, D2, CPM-D2, and CTS-XHP(and especially ZDP-189) are not low carbide steels either, so that invalidates Vassili's argument that high carbide volume steels have worse edge holding, as it would mean 1095 should be the absolute best in edge holding.

As for the availability of CPM-D2, I believe I saw a few custom makers are still using it in their mid-tech knives when I was window-shopping on knifeart.

 

[Ankerson]

Well technically CTS-XHP would be what you call a "stainless" version of CPM-D2. I personally don't find it to be that big a step up in terms of stain resistance as both my Manix 2 and XM-18 in CTS-XHP have rusted on me. Though admittedly my Speedform with CPM-D2 spine had rusted even more aggressively(might be due to the bead blast finish though), my Dozier Buffalo River Hunter in the regular flavor of D2 has yet to get even a patina(though I admittedly polished the entire blade).

However, Ankerson tested better performance than CPM-D2 at Rc62, and I suspect the XHP blade was at Rc 60-60.5(seems to be where Rick Hinderer has his). I'd also imagine that toughness is up there if Rick uses it, and I haven't observed any chipping on the edge(Ankerson didn't mention it either).

Given that the datasheet says the steel can be treated to Rc64, it would be very interesting to test a blade in that hardness.

In all fairness, D2, CPM-D2, and CTS-XHP(and especially ZDP-189) are not low carbide steels either, so that invalidates Vassili's argument that high carbide volume steels have worse edge holding, as it would mean 1095 should be the absolute best in edge holding.

As for the availability of CPM-D2, I believe I saw a few custom makers are still using it in their mid-tech knives when I was window-shopping on knifeart.

That's why his post s don't make any since when he says High Carbide steels are worse at edge holding because of high percentage of carbides then in the same statement talks about how great D2 is.

Then we all know how he rates ZDP-189, S60V and XHP, these are high alloy steels along with D2, ZDP-189 is loaded with chromium carbides with 20% chromium.

HE contradicts all of his own statements and testing results....

KInda funny when you think about it.

 

[Artfully Martial]

IM using CPM-D2. Just got my third tyrade today

 

[The Mastiff]

Not being able to keep intellectual discussion some people desperately try to turn it to some kind of word circus, bringing everything (like conspiracy etc) to hide their inability to speak on the matter, having very limited or no any personal experience with discussed topic, rather then second, at best, if not third or fourth hand data reading something somewhere

Vassili, you were the one who claimed there was a "conspiracy" by metallurgists, steel foundrys, and knife manufacturers. We can put up lots of your old posts if you like. Editing them now won't help. That's a hint.

CPM S90V is more wear resistant, some people can not understand that edge holding and wear resistance is different thing. Wear resistance is good to resit grinding, but not stay sharp. Huge content of carbides weaken steel mitrix, like too much sand weaken concrete. So all those V steel may be good for tank garage floor to not to be wear by tracks but not for knife edge.

Do you mean "Edge stability"? Edge retention is just another way of saying wear resistance. You are making up new definitions now it seems. Yes, it's recognized that lower carbide fractions and smaller carbides can help give a steel better edge stability. The Super Blue steel is an example of higher edge stability than , say, S90V. Hitachi White steel is even better when it comes to edge stability than super blue. For stainless steels about the best you're gonna do there is the 12C, 13C sandvik, AEBL, etc.

Don't confuse edge stability with wear resistance though in some cases high edge stability can help a steel get the most out of it's structure and composition, it's the carbides that give wear resistance

This is why CPM D2 outperforms CPM S90V and CPM 10V - 9% of "sand" in steel does not make better edge.

So you are now claiming S90V and CPM 10V have 9% "sand" in their composition? Wow! No, just a bad analogy?

 

[merkava001]

This is why i love this forum.........the passion + the knowledge + different points of view + personal preferences + own experiences = the best f@#% forum on earth!!!

thank you guys

 

[JNewell]

This is why i love this forum.........the passion + the knowledge + different points of view + personal preferences + own experiences = the best f@#% forum on earth!!!

thank you guys

Not to mention the comedy and entertainment value. These threads are better than Monty Python re-runs.

 

[nozh2002]

That's why his post s don't make any since when he says High Carbide steels are worse at edge holding because of high percentage of carbides then in the same statement talks about how great D2 is.

Then we all know how he rates ZDP-189, S60V and XHP, these are high alloy steels along with D2, ZDP-189 is loaded with chromium carbides with 20% chromium.

HE contradicts all of his own statements and testing results....

KInda funny when you think about it.

Again you are twisting my words and add some drama. This is of course what you must have on the show and I should admit you are quite entertaining and successful in that area.

If we return to formal steel performance testing - on the bottom line CPM D2 from Kershaw is pretty good deal and this is supported up by manila rope cutting test (200 times) where it outperform CPM S90V and CPM 10V. There is some rumor and disbelieve that this can not happen, however there is not any test results to proves this disbelieve. A lot of cross reference in different forum discussions but no single test just talks.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. - http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Results.html
P.P.S. BTW I just last weel tested Aogami and Cobalt Special COS-3 - very good performance.

 

[Ankerson]

Again you are twisting my words and add some drama. This is of course what you must have on the show and I should admit you are quite entertaining and successful in that area.

If we return to formal steel performance testing - on the bottom line CPM D2 from Kershaw is pretty good deal and this is supported up by manila rope cutting test (200 times) where it outperform CPM S90V and CPM 10V. There is some rumor and disbelieve that this can not happen, however there is not any test results to proves this disbelieve. A lot of cross reference in different forum discussions but no single test just talks.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. - http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Results.html
P.P.S. BTW I just last weel tested Aogami and Cobalt Special COS-3 - very good performance.

Only in your own little world would D2 outperform S90V and 10V....

For the rest of the world that just doesn't happen and never will.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

ank,

if you can decipher nohz's posts and his data sheets i'll give you a friggin medal.

 

[Ankerson]

ank,

if you can decipher nohz's posts and his data sheets i'll give you a friggin medal.

They give me a headache....

Anyone that says D2 will outperform S90V and 10V is crazy IMO....

 

[Peter Parker]

I use it in this my only model with it, CPM D2 powder steel is for my uses better the D2 tool steel! Hands down CPM D2 is my favorite steel to date, and I've heard Spyderco RCs this one to 62! I usually don't care for a steel above RC 60 but this PM takes an amazing edge!

 

[nozh2002]

Only in your own little world would D2 outperform S90V and 10V....

For the rest of the world that just doesn't happen and never will.

Yes my little World of 1/2" Manila rope cut 200 times isolated from hitting base, measuring sharpness in a process. It may be little, but it least it is real.

You created some mythical World of chatting to each other, and more you chat - more real it appear to you. You support each other and attack anyone who sceptical about your believes. Most interesting is that "testing show" which meant to prove this mythology. With "flexible" procedure and undisclosed raw data it is perfect to "prove" what you already believed.

Fortunately there was a class in University - "Scientific methodology". One of the proves of right testing is unexpected or unknown before results which then proven by independent testing.

In case of my testing - I found poor quality of SGPS, then it was also demonstrated independently by BLUNTRUTH4U. I found average performance on CPM S30V - also later CATRA tests where published with same data.

Now I rather believe in my test results then to chorus of voices here saying that CPM D2 should not be better then CPM S90V. Why should I? Show me test results (I mean real test not test show) then I may have a look. The fact that so many people here talk about that a lot - does not impressed me at all, after being on this forum for over eight years and thousands spend on super steels with average or poor performance, I learn that I should test blade performance myself and do not trust to commonly accepted opinions.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[neuron]

Fortunately there was a class in University - "Scientific methodology". One of the proves of right testing is unexpected or unknown before results which then proven by independent testing.

You must have missed the part of the class that laid out the distinction between internal validity and external validity of experimental results. An experiment can have high internal validity (results that are consistently obtainable under the specific conditions used) but low external validity (fails to generalize across a range of different conditions/situations).

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that your experiment has high internal validity. The only conclusion that allows us to draw is that Steel X is better that Steel Y at cutting manila rope (under the specific test conditions you used, and the specific metric for "better" you used). It doesn't at all warrant the conclusion that Steel X is better than Steel Y in general (i.e., across a range of conditions/tasks/metrics) -- in other words, that the study has high external validity. And this is exactly the inferential leap you're making when you pop up in every steel thread using your experiment to make blanket statements that one steel is better than another.