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Who Would Be Interested In Doing A Collaboration Classic Hunter With Me??
- Thread starter rlinger
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!!!!!! Pretty good, Roger! You, too, Dave!
We went through this question several months ago but now is the time to be sure what we want. I believe the general, or weighted, concensus was to achieve a hardness of 58 - 59 HRc. It is time to give advise. It will be HT'ed by or during the weekend.
I will say this: I have tested a 1084 / 15N20 damascus that I HT'd to 58 -59 by so far cutting 310 ft. of beer carton cardboard, chopped a good bit of seasoned oak and whittled seasoned oak (White Oak). All testing was done only on a 1 inch length of the edge and it still shaves and there are no chips under 10X magnification . I stroped it a couple times on leather but never retouched it with a stone.
Let me know what hardness you guys think we should aim for and I really hope Nick sees this since only he would know his steel best.
Thanks.
RL
I will say this: I have tested a 1084 / 15N20 damascus that I HT'd to 58 -59 by so far cutting 310 ft. of beer carton cardboard, chopped a good bit of seasoned oak and whittled seasoned oak (White Oak). All testing was done only on a 1 inch length of the edge and it still shaves and there are no chips under 10X magnification . I stroped it a couple times on leather but never retouched it with a stone.
Let me know what hardness you guys think we should aim for and I really hope Nick sees this since only he would know his steel best.
Thanks.
RL
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
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- 9,437
Sounds good Roger. Pretty much everything I do is in the 58-60 range.
Nick
Nick
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- Dec 7, 2000
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Same here; harder is better.
- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
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- 9,910
I say you nailed it Roger. Go ahead and cook that bad boy.
I've had this on my mind since I promised HT by or during this weekend. I can not make it this weekend and owe a statement to you fellows. Too much other steel right now. I am aiming for HT'ing the Collab blade Tuesday and Wednesday (2 day process). Sorry about the delay.
Bruce, I have been experimenting with the PBC. While I like it I do not believe I have learned its use that well. I have sprinkeled, dipped, and poured it out on aluminum foil to lay the blade upon. So far my best results is to pour it out and lay the 500 or about 510 degree blade upon. That way it seems I am getting about 90% NO-DECARB or SCALING. I have never gotten any scaling using it but am still getting a short percentage of decarburation; just enough to aggravate you. Can you give me a tip or are you experiencing similar results?
Dave, I would say expect the blade back for some decarb grinding. I will try my best to be as gentle on you as I can. Its your grind and we look to you to clean it after HT.
I think we are aiming for about 59 HRc and no less but not much more. I will aim for 59.
RL
Bruce, I have been experimenting with the PBC. While I like it I do not believe I have learned its use that well. I have sprinkeled, dipped, and poured it out on aluminum foil to lay the blade upon. So far my best results is to pour it out and lay the 500 or about 510 degree blade upon. That way it seems I am getting about 90% NO-DECARB or SCALING. I have never gotten any scaling using it but am still getting a short percentage of decarburation; just enough to aggravate you. Can you give me a tip or are you experiencing similar results?
Dave, I would say expect the blade back for some decarb grinding. I will try my best to be as gentle on you as I can. Its your grind and we look to you to clean it after HT.
I think we are aiming for about 59 HRc and no less but not much more. I will aim for 59.
RL
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2000
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Cripes Roger, I thought I could relax now! 
She's in snap temper now. Before placing in snap temper I have little time to examine how the quench went. I can say I saw nothing discouraging and I saw alot that encouraged me. I will check straightness and snap temper hardness before putting in cryo (or I will start all over again).
I'll be back.
P.S., There is one thing I was unhappy about. I did not hit my oil temp. where I wanted it. I was aiming for 130 F and ended up at 132 F at quench time. Does'nt sound like much but it may be.
RL
I'll be back.
P.S., There is one thing I was unhappy about. I did not hit my oil temp. where I wanted it. I was aiming for 130 F and ended up at 132 F at quench time. Does'nt sound like much but it may be.
RL
She is straight. If there is any decarburation it is of the shallowest and only about a dozen spots and so shallow I can not tell if it is decarb or not. The tang is as clean as the blade. There is no warp that these old eyes can see.
She still needs to cool a bit and I will Rockwell. If it is not 61 minimum I will re-do. If it is 61 minimum I will place in cryo very shortly.
I'll be back.
RL
She still needs to cool a bit and I will Rockwell. If it is not 61 minimum I will re-do. If it is 61 minimum I will place in cryo very shortly.
I'll be back.
RL
61.5 HRc after snap temper. Text book. I am pleased. What a piece of steel it was to work with. Nick, you do VERY GOOD. What a pleasure and excersise in nerves it has been to heat treat such a one of a kind forged by one of our best. She is in cryo now. I know Dave feels the same as I.
Okay, now that I have a real handle on this heat treat and know that I can hit her where ever we want. Do you guys want a 60 HRc blade or are we still going to aim for 59? I can do 60 and still 400 F temper. I can do 59 with about a 430 - 440 F temper. I will not go below 400 F on the primary temper, so 60 max is about it after secondary temper.
WoW! I am glad this blade is quenched and snap tempered! I have felt like Dave must have felt before he grinded it.
Dave, I am going to send her back to you. It is your grind and only two of us should touch this blade with a belt: you for cleaning any possible decarb and Nick for secondary bevel (if he chooses to use a belt - up to him).
Tomorrow is tempering. All is well and she is clean and straight.
RL
Okay, now that I have a real handle on this heat treat and know that I can hit her where ever we want. Do you guys want a 60 HRc blade or are we still going to aim for 59? I can do 60 and still 400 F temper. I can do 59 with about a 430 - 440 F temper. I will not go below 400 F on the primary temper, so 60 max is about it after secondary temper.
WoW! I am glad this blade is quenched and snap tempered! I have felt like Dave must have felt before he grinded it.
Dave, I am going to send her back to you. It is your grind and only two of us should touch this blade with a belt: you for cleaning any possible decarb and Nick for secondary bevel (if he chooses to use a belt - up to him).
Tomorrow is tempering. All is well and she is clean and straight.
RL
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
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- 9,437
Great job Roger
59/60 makes no matter to me....as long as it's harder than 45 I'm happy
Did you pre-heat the Tough Quench, or did you use another oil? I've never tried heating it, may have to try that.
Nick
59/60 makes no matter to me....as long as it's harder than 45 I'm happy
Did you pre-heat the Tough Quench, or did you use another oil? I've never tried heating it, may have to try that.
Nick
Nick,
I got the Tough-Quench specifiacally for this blade (however the timing was good for other blades too - as it turns out) and I spent the better part of a week testing samples of O1 without pre-heating the oil at all. I did get a warp even though the quench seemed consistant. I then had an opportunity to edge quench another maker's 5160 forged blade. I first heated the Tough-Quench to about 137 F and edge quenched. It was not optimal. No warp but I did not get the hardness I knew I should have. I repeated at about 127 F and I was very pleased.
Your steel was pre-heated at a rate of 450 F per hour to 1200 F for a pre-heat equalize (7 min. at 1200 F) and then balls to the wall to 1475 F for 5 minute soak, then quenched to oil temp. (132 F + steel influence) and boiled in tap water for several minutes to remove the Brownell's PBC and hold for snap. Upon pulling from water and allowing to fall to hand warm I snapped at about 335 F / 1 hour, tested and placed in deep cryo.
Before all that and two days prior, Monday and Monday evening I ramped slowly to 1400 F / hold 2 min. (foil wrapped) and still air cooled after oven cooling to black (repeated three times).
The major reason there was no warp is because of the slow ramp to 1200 F pre-heat and then allowing it to equalize there but not for too long - and, of course, the two minute 1400 F treatments you had long ago (it seems) advised me to do.
I would, from my limited experience, advise the oil be heated to the task and steel type at hand. I would heat less for an edge quench than I would a full quench. We must remember that the oil acts as a sink for unquenched surfaces through the quenched surfaces.
RL
I got the Tough-Quench specifiacally for this blade (however the timing was good for other blades too - as it turns out) and I spent the better part of a week testing samples of O1 without pre-heating the oil at all. I did get a warp even though the quench seemed consistant. I then had an opportunity to edge quench another maker's 5160 forged blade. I first heated the Tough-Quench to about 137 F and edge quenched. It was not optimal. No warp but I did not get the hardness I knew I should have. I repeated at about 127 F and I was very pleased.
Your steel was pre-heated at a rate of 450 F per hour to 1200 F for a pre-heat equalize (7 min. at 1200 F) and then balls to the wall to 1475 F for 5 minute soak, then quenched to oil temp. (132 F + steel influence) and boiled in tap water for several minutes to remove the Brownell's PBC and hold for snap. Upon pulling from water and allowing to fall to hand warm I snapped at about 335 F / 1 hour, tested and placed in deep cryo.
Before all that and two days prior, Monday and Monday evening I ramped slowly to 1400 F / hold 2 min. (foil wrapped) and still air cooled after oven cooling to black (repeated three times).
The major reason there was no warp is because of the slow ramp to 1200 F pre-heat and then allowing it to equalize there but not for too long - and, of course, the two minute 1400 F treatments you had long ago (it seems) advised me to do.
I would, from my limited experience, advise the oil be heated to the task and steel type at hand. I would heat less for an edge quench than I would a full quench. We must remember that the oil acts as a sink for unquenched surfaces through the quenched surfaces.
RL
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2000
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- 5,179
Good work Roger! This blade has "magic" written all through it. Let's just hope I don't twitch and pop a big scratch in that baby when I'm cleaning it up... I'll sure be glad when that's all done...
I'll sure be glad when that's all done... - Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 2,767
All of you fellas that are doing and making the blade are the "magic" in the blade. No hokus pokus here, just the best of the best blade making, gentlemen.
Disappointing news. I have to repeat the HT. I don't believe I got a good quench. Will need to lower the Tough-Quench oil temperature to about 125 F. This happened to me on another blade that I originally edge quenched at 137 F and the fix was to lower the oil to 125 F. After tempering at 410 F I got varying Rockwell tests from 54 to 59.5. Sorry but its not good enough yet. Hope to quench tomorrow (Friday).
RL
RL
Sorry for the delay. I have been pulled in different directions all of different meanings. Anyhow the blade has been HT'ed again at a Tough-Quench oil temp. of 122 F. I got a tiny warp at the end of tang that I will straighten. The blade and rest of tang check good on the comparison plate and there should be little problem straightening the end of tang.
I am not able to get a consistant Rockwell. It is because of tang taper, I believe. I need a rather flat surface to be reliable and there is none and that is the blade design and is proper for this blade. Based on experience I rate the blade hardness at 59+ to about a high of 60 HRc. However, I believe the edge should be tested before sending out for finish work and I do not believe I am the best to do that. I would suggest that our very best should be the one to test the edge/blade. Nick has been assigned, with his consent, to put the edge on the blade. Therefore I ask him first to do this testing. Should Nick be too assigned to other obligations I would like to ask Bruce to do the testing. Should Bruce be too assigned at the moment we will need to get the next one in order (Dan Gray). If testing fails the blade needs to be returned to me for proper HT'ing. If it passes it needs to be sent to Dave for post HT grinding (not much to do there).
Nick and Bruce please advise.
RL
I am not able to get a consistant Rockwell. It is because of tang taper, I believe. I need a rather flat surface to be reliable and there is none and that is the blade design and is proper for this blade. Based on experience I rate the blade hardness at 59+ to about a high of 60 HRc. However, I believe the edge should be tested before sending out for finish work and I do not believe I am the best to do that. I would suggest that our very best should be the one to test the edge/blade. Nick has been assigned, with his consent, to put the edge on the blade. Therefore I ask him first to do this testing. Should Nick be too assigned to other obligations I would like to ask Bruce to do the testing. Should Bruce be too assigned at the moment we will need to get the next one in order (Dan Gray). If testing fails the blade needs to be returned to me for proper HT'ing. If it passes it needs to be sent to Dave for post HT grinding (not much to do there).
Nick and Bruce please advise.
RL
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
Roger,
You're worrying too much, life's too short!
Go ahead and put an edge on it and test it. You're a knifemaker, you can do it just as well as the rest of us, and it will save the back-and-forth shipping.
I know you asked me to put the final edge on it....but I REALLY do not mind if you test it out. In fact, I would really prefer it, as it will help to keep the ball rolling since everyone has been working so well and getting this knife in progression. Sending it to me will only slow down the process, when we all know you can do the job. I can't say for sure, but I bet Bruce will feel the same way!
So have at her Roger
Nick
You're worrying too much, life's too short!
Go ahead and put an edge on it and test it. You're a knifemaker, you can do it just as well as the rest of us, and it will save the back-and-forth shipping.
I know you asked me to put the final edge on it....but I REALLY do not mind if you test it out. In fact, I would really prefer it, as it will help to keep the ball rolling since everyone has been working so well and getting this knife in progression. Sending it to me will only slow down the process, when we all know you can do the job. I can't say for sure, but I bet Bruce will feel the same way!
So have at her Roger
Nick