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whose warranties cover unintentional abuse/breakage?
- Thread starter Billmanweh
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Ebbtide
Gold Member
- Joined
- Aug 20, 1999
- Messages
- 7,954
Oh....please please have the chop off!
I can just see it now...we could promote it just like the WWF...
"In this corner Jerry and the B's"
(All the adoring fans dressed in yellow and black)
A rush of applause...
"And in this corner Mick and the Striderrights"
(All the adoring fans dressed in tigerstripes)
Another equally passionate rush of applause.
Our heros take the stage, knives in hand.
A hush falls over the crowd.
The custom makers whisper and point to the picture of Cliff hanging at center stage.
A truck arrives with a load of 2x4's and cinder blocks...
Oh the drama.
The pagentry.
The theater.
Oh please have a chop off, it'll do so much for the knife community!
I can just see it now...we could promote it just like the WWF...
"In this corner Jerry and the B's"
(All the adoring fans dressed in yellow and black)
A rush of applause...
"And in this corner Mick and the Striderrights"
(All the adoring fans dressed in tigerstripes)
Another equally passionate rush of applause.
Our heros take the stage, knives in hand.
A hush falls over the crowd.
The custom makers whisper and point to the picture of Cliff hanging at center stage.
A truck arrives with a load of 2x4's and cinder blocks...
Oh the drama.
The pagentry.
The theater.
Oh please have a chop off, it'll do so much for the knife community!
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2003
- Messages
- 3,049
if two knives complete the same task, one with functional damage, one without, it tells you something about the knives. wether the entire competition is shrouded in sensationalism or not, what happens to the knives is interesting and important to those who are going to use them for similarly, or harder use tasks.
and it would in essense be taking the "public destructive testing" out of the hands of the public and into the hands of the makers, wich i havent seen before. i would love to read about a makers destructive testing - not a "heres the basic set up, heres the basic out come", but a serious chart of imperical data that shows something concrete.
having a maker say what his knives can do, and having a maker show what his knives can do are two very different things. im not picking on anyone here - same goes for busse as it does for strider as it does for anyone. busse has said that he was going to put up a section on the website dedicated to the steels he's used and the comparative testing, but it hasnt happened yet. i will be truly impressed if it ever does, just like id be truly impressed when and or if any other maker did. until then, all i have to go on is the public demonstrations.
and it would in essense be taking the "public destructive testing" out of the hands of the public and into the hands of the makers, wich i havent seen before. i would love to read about a makers destructive testing - not a "heres the basic set up, heres the basic out come", but a serious chart of imperical data that shows something concrete.
having a maker say what his knives can do, and having a maker show what his knives can do are two very different things. im not picking on anyone here - same goes for busse as it does for strider as it does for anyone. busse has said that he was going to put up a section on the website dedicated to the steels he's used and the comparative testing, but it hasnt happened yet. i will be truly impressed if it ever does, just like id be truly impressed when and or if any other maker did. until then, all i have to go on is the public demonstrations.
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
- Messages
- 345
db said:
DB, I was about to write a post that would have been to your liking.. rude, simple words, and alot of heat. I won't even give you that much. I won't even entertain this thread regarding Strider/busse warrenty issues. The majority of the members here care nothing for Strider... its pretty apparent that not even the moderators have kept some members in check regarding the blatant and very rude remarks said in this thread. Thats ok too I guess since this is supposed to be a unbiased forum right?
Just stating facts and legit opinions? This forum is rampant with people running their mouth such as yourself just saying anything to start an arguement. They say this is the largest knife forum in the world.. but then again they also say bigger isnt always better. Perhaps if it didnt have members such as yourself, this would be a more quality place to be as it was a while ago. So DB, say what you want I could care less. I am a girl and im going. :barf:
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2004
- Messages
- 467
You folks really need to eat more fiber. The post was about warranties not whose red shovel in the sand box performs better.
Some of you seem to have no problem with distructive testing. I don't either but BE REAL you don't destroy it intentionally and ask for another one under warranty. I work for one of the BIG 3 AUTOMAKERS we buy one of each new model every year and tear it apart to see how its made down to the welds. Never have we brought back the pile of scrap and asked for it to be fixed under warranty.
Do all the testing you want dress your knives up and call them sweat heart if you want. But be just to the makers when you break it and want another.
A
Some of you seem to have no problem with distructive testing. I don't either but BE REAL you don't destroy it intentionally and ask for another one under warranty. I work for one of the BIG 3 AUTOMAKERS we buy one of each new model every year and tear it apart to see how its made down to the welds. Never have we brought back the pile of scrap and asked for it to be fixed under warranty.
Do all the testing you want dress your knives up and call them sweat heart if you want. But be just to the makers when you break it and want another.
A
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,671
Ebbtide said:Oh....please please have the chop off!
I can just see it now...we could promote it just like the WWF...
"In this corner Jerry and the B's"
(All the adoring fans dressed in yellow and black)
A rush of applause...
"And in this corner Mick and the Striderrights"
(All the adoring fans dressed in tigerstripes)
Another equally passionate rush of applause.
Our heros take the stage, knives in hand.
A hush falls over the crowd.
The custom makers whisper and point to the picture of Cliff hanging at center stage.
A truck arrives with a load of 2x4's and cinder blocks...
Oh the drama.
The pagentry.
The theater.
Oh please have a chop off, it'll do so much for the knife community!
Funny stuff.
Sounds like the perfect time to put in a plug for the "ICCT" (International Cutting Championship Trail).
Mr.Bruce Voyles and Mr. Steve McCowen (both heavily involved in the industry media) have organized and are promoting a cutting competition. They are currently looking for sponsers to sponsor contestants, each with a knife that will carry them through the contest. (length limit, safety requirements, etc.) The contest will have several events that add up points for the winners to a year end winner.
They have been developing the tests for a while now. Talk about passion for the industry
. Good potential for a competition with performance involved, the "Cutter?" (driver?) the "blade?" (car) and the brand, all pushing for a season win. I'm would guess that Mick and Jerry have been approached. Spyderco is planning on sponsoring Ed Schempp (Cutter) with a knife of Ed's design (camp knife) manufactured by Spyderco in Golden.
If you have any interest or care to support, get involved, etc. contact Steve McCowen at 715-445-2885.
Might give you something to do besides ARGUE over "shovels in the sandbox, LOL...and support your favorite Gladiator (Cutter), Shovel (blade) and also important, the brand that you like.
Way to go, Bruce & Steve.
sal
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2004
- Messages
- 3,178
canranger said:
Agreed. Intentionally breaking knives can be informative but the manufacturer should not be expected to eat the costs. I'm sure that they've already done their own destructive testing and are quite aware of what their knives will and won't do.
If I understand it correctly, I believe that Cliff's initial gripe was with knives that are promoted to perform certain tasks, yet are not warrantied if those tasks are performed by the user. I'll leave the validity of his complaints to others - I didn't witness the episode and I'm not going to speculate on it.
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
- Messages
- 637
I agree with your agreementSatori said:
If I were to purchase a Mercedes (I wish), whose bumper is advertised to withstand an impact of X mph, and proceed to test it to failure by driving it into a wall, I seriously doubt that I would receive repair or replacement costs from the company whether failure occurred at X mph, X - 5 mph, or X + 5 mph.
I may have provided a service to the consumer, but it would be at my own cost.
It would be a different story if I were contracted by the company to test.
Mike
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2000
- Messages
- 1,385
This is so retarded.
To begin, let me apologize to EVERY one involved in this retarded thread. What I should have done is let you all say what you had to say and not care .
BUT
To sit and listen to Mr. Stamp speak more untruths about my company was more than I could swallow. Cliff likes what he likes and that is fine. To talk poorly about a companies warrantee, which you have yet to use, is more than misleading. It is slanderous. Maybe one day ill have the chance to talk to Cliff about it in person, maybe not. But im done with it here. This has moved to the point of lawyers, **** it.
Mr Sal,
I have huge respect for you, and everything you have done in this industry, of which Im sure i only know a very small amount.
I may have misunderstood the flavor of your posts that spoke of companies that had unconditional warrantees. I felt as if you were discrediting our warrantee and I needed to address it. I could have and should have addressed it more clearly. For not doing so, I apologize.
Mr. Jerry.
Come on Bro!
Dont join in on this crap.
I was in no way discrediting your videos or product. I think your gear is rock solid. I applaud both you and your company for making both an incredible product, and for making it amazingly affordable. You will NEVER find an instance of me saying otherwise. Additionally, I have seen some examples of your custom work that were amazing, which impressed the **** out of me in that I didnt even know you made custom knives.
To be honest, I was shocked to hear you were posting here, and offended. Im sorry if you feel I have stepped on your toes. It was in no way my intention.
I was simply attempting to rebuff the fact that videos offer more than advertising.
In case no one has noticed, we (Strider Knives) dont EVER compare our gear to anyone elses. Why should we? We are not in competition with any one.
No where does it say our warrantee is the best!
No where in there does it say our knives are the best.
No where does it say you should ONLY use our gear.
We want people to buy what they want. If its not our gear, good for whoevers it was ..
Most of the knife companies out there, as well as the makers are our friends.
Most of them make awesome gear, as is clear by the huge support of their customers.
We make our product the way we want it. Some people like it, some dont. There is an ass for EVERY seat and were happy about it.
You go buy what ever knife you want, and ill be happy. I personally have owned and used the **** out of Busses. I gave my damn groomsmen (the first time) Spydercos
Which may have been bad luck, im not sure
..it couldnt have been my charming personality
.
This is turning into something ugly, all because of a single lie, and a single misguided individual. (Strider hurt my feelings so their warrantee sucks)
Thanks again Cliff for mixing pseudo-science with psychopharmacology.
Again, Mr. Sal , Mr. Jerry, and every one else.
im sorry that you were drawn into this odiferous situation.
m
edited to add: Mr. Jerry and Mr. Sal, i tried to PM you but my account wont allow it....
To begin, let me apologize to EVERY one involved in this retarded thread. What I should have done is let you all say what you had to say and not care .
BUT
To sit and listen to Mr. Stamp speak more untruths about my company was more than I could swallow. Cliff likes what he likes and that is fine. To talk poorly about a companies warrantee, which you have yet to use, is more than misleading. It is slanderous. Maybe one day ill have the chance to talk to Cliff about it in person, maybe not. But im done with it here. This has moved to the point of lawyers, **** it.
Mr Sal,
I have huge respect for you, and everything you have done in this industry, of which Im sure i only know a very small amount.
I may have misunderstood the flavor of your posts that spoke of companies that had unconditional warrantees. I felt as if you were discrediting our warrantee and I needed to address it. I could have and should have addressed it more clearly. For not doing so, I apologize.
Mr. Jerry.
Come on Bro!
Dont join in on this crap.
I was in no way discrediting your videos or product. I think your gear is rock solid. I applaud both you and your company for making both an incredible product, and for making it amazingly affordable. You will NEVER find an instance of me saying otherwise. Additionally, I have seen some examples of your custom work that were amazing, which impressed the **** out of me in that I didnt even know you made custom knives.
To be honest, I was shocked to hear you were posting here, and offended. Im sorry if you feel I have stepped on your toes. It was in no way my intention.
I was simply attempting to rebuff the fact that videos offer more than advertising.
In case no one has noticed, we (Strider Knives) dont EVER compare our gear to anyone elses. Why should we? We are not in competition with any one.
No where does it say our warrantee is the best!
No where in there does it say our knives are the best.
No where does it say you should ONLY use our gear.
We want people to buy what they want. If its not our gear, good for whoevers it was ..
Most of the knife companies out there, as well as the makers are our friends.
Most of them make awesome gear, as is clear by the huge support of their customers.
We make our product the way we want it. Some people like it, some dont. There is an ass for EVERY seat and were happy about it.
You go buy what ever knife you want, and ill be happy. I personally have owned and used the **** out of Busses. I gave my damn groomsmen (the first time)
Spydercos
Which may have been bad luck, im not sure
..it couldnt have been my charming personality
.This is turning into something ugly, all because of a single lie, and a single misguided individual. (Strider hurt my feelings so their warrantee sucks)
Thanks again Cliff for mixing pseudo-science with psychopharmacology.
Again, Mr. Sal , Mr. Jerry, and every one else.
im sorry that you were drawn into this odiferous situation.
m
edited to add: Mr. Jerry and Mr. Sal, i tried to PM you but my account wont allow it....
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
You stated that if I tried to use the warrenty the knife would get marked as abused and the warrenty voided. This statement from you, the maker, describes a weak warrenty, not a strong one. You called abuse when I attempted to duplicate tests you use to promote your knives.Mick Strider said:
The funny thing is that you are the one who asked me to do the review of that WB in the first place. You promote the knives as heavy use tacticals, chopping steel, concrete, prying, hitting them with sledges, etc. . What did you think I was going to do, peel a carrot, and sharpen a pencil?
As for the rules of the forum, look at the whole host of personal attacks from Mick and company, now look at what I said and find the corrosponding personal attacks. Find statements I have made which are not based on actual facts.
Facts :
1) Mick asked me to review the WB which got damaged
2) the WB suffered functional damage chopping concrete something Strider promotes
3) Mick Strider said plainly that this was abuse and that a warrenty claim would be met with an abuse stamp and the warrenty on said knife was then voided
Now actually deal with those facts if you can and argue how this is a strong warrenty when the company promote use but then refuses to cover it under warrenty.
-Cliff
Food stamp,
Where does Strider promote chopping up concrete with a knife?
I can't find it anywhere on their website?
Please provide a source.
If you're talking about a demonstration...there's one that's been bugging me for years that I will pay you to debunk.
This crazy glue commercial has a guy gluing his hardhat to a girder and being suspended 100's of feet in the air.
I'll pay you if you can debunk that one.
I'll send you a tube of krazy glue, a hardhat, and a map to tall unfinished unoccupied buildings.
Make it happen and let me know where to send the check.
Where does Strider promote chopping up concrete with a knife?
I can't find it anywhere on their website?
Please provide a source.
If you're talking about a demonstration...there's one that's been bugging me for years that I will pay you to debunk.
This crazy glue commercial has a guy gluing his hardhat to a girder and being suspended 100's of feet in the air.
I'll pay you if you can debunk that one.
I'll send you a tube of krazy glue, a hardhat, and a map to tall unfinished unoccupied buildings.
Make it happen and let me know where to send the check.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2004
- Messages
- 12,955
I cannot say I've read all the replies here. I only scanned a few of them from some of the names I recognized and mostly those after it grew beyond the bounds of a normal conversation. I may go over them in more depth later but for now I want to say this.
Remember that company that used to be huge? You know the one called Schrade Walden that no longer exists. They went under for many reasons but part of it was from bad promotional stuff like a warranty to cover loss of a knife. This was completely unheard of and very abused by the public. I remember when I was in the Air Force a guy in the service with me claiming to have recieved a free knife just by telling them he lost his Uncle Henry. Later I found out he had done it with other Uncle Henry knives and that he never lost any of them he just took them for freebies. I doubt he is a unique individual at all in our society. I would suspect that this was done by the thousands based on my own observations of bad people pretending to be good. Call me cynical if you want. I can live with it because when it comes to human nature I have grown that way.
Any company that has an outrageous warranty is just asking for it from the general public so who can blame them if they put their guard up on a knife they made when it is one that was obviously abused? So what if they themselves do promotions to show how tough their product is.
Cliff I understand your point of view to some extent but I also see the company side too. My new Jeep has a new revolutionary material incorporated into the door panels to stand up better to denting but I'm not about to run out and shove grocery carts into the side of it just to test it to see if it works and then call the company to cover it when it doesn't pan out.
I think any mature adult that takes a knife to a concrete block knows that he is voiding any warranty out there. Regardless of promotional stuff in survival situations or toughness tests done by the companies in question that is abuse of a knife beyond it's original intent as a primary cutting tool. I have seen Cold Steel doing that absurd stuff too but that is not covered under the warranty and they tell you so. I don't see why you are surprised that they call what you did abuse. That is what it was from my point of view. You took the risk with the knife and it didn't pan out. Why the big stink? You did it! Take responsibility for it!
Just my two cents worth.
Remember that company that used to be huge? You know the one called Schrade Walden that no longer exists. They went under for many reasons but part of it was from bad promotional stuff like a warranty to cover loss of a knife. This was completely unheard of and very abused by the public. I remember when I was in the Air Force a guy in the service with me claiming to have recieved a free knife just by telling them he lost his Uncle Henry. Later I found out he had done it with other Uncle Henry knives and that he never lost any of them he just took them for freebies. I doubt he is a unique individual at all in our society. I would suspect that this was done by the thousands based on my own observations of bad people pretending to be good. Call me cynical if you want. I can live with it because when it comes to human nature I have grown that way.
Any company that has an outrageous warranty is just asking for it from the general public so who can blame them if they put their guard up on a knife they made when it is one that was obviously abused? So what if they themselves do promotions to show how tough their product is.
Cliff I understand your point of view to some extent but I also see the company side too. My new Jeep has a new revolutionary material incorporated into the door panels to stand up better to denting but I'm not about to run out and shove grocery carts into the side of it just to test it to see if it works and then call the company to cover it when it doesn't pan out.
I think any mature adult that takes a knife to a concrete block knows that he is voiding any warranty out there. Regardless of promotional stuff in survival situations or toughness tests done by the companies in question that is abuse of a knife beyond it's original intent as a primary cutting tool. I have seen Cold Steel doing that absurd stuff too but that is not covered under the warranty and they tell you so. I don't see why you are surprised that they call what you did abuse. That is what it was from my point of view. You took the risk with the knife and it didn't pan out. Why the big stink? You did it! Take responsibility for it!
Just my two cents worth.
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2002
- Messages
- 9,948
Billman,
The consensus is that Ginsu's warranty is the best for intentional abuse.
For unintentional abuse, most of the more expensive makers will all step up (and I can't stress unintentional strongly enough) as will some of the lower-priced makers within reason.
The consensus is that Ginsu's warranty is the best for intentional abuse.
For unintentional abuse, most of the more expensive makers will all step up (and I can't stress unintentional strongly enough) as will some of the lower-priced makers within reason.
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2000
- Messages
- 1,385
Sniff said:
Yes your correct, in that we told you the knife WOULD be replaced, and that the new one would be marked to indicate that you intentionally destroy knives in your "tests" and that any further destructive "testing" would not be warranteed on that knife.
So then how is this weak? Because we wouldn't continue to send you items to intentionally destroy?
dude.....you have issues....
i know because i have more issues than Time Magazine......but your fkdup like a football bat.
i guess one good thing came from this retarded thead.....thirteen pages of posts and only one issue with our warrantee....and its by someone who admits they never really used it.......
cool!
m
- Joined
- Mar 18, 1999
- Messages
- 9,966
Stider, Busse, Spyderco and all the other companies mentioned in this thread do not need to defend their product. I own plenty of knives from ALL you guys and they all are solid working tools that get used almost daily. You guys are all the most highly regarded and should have nothing to prove.
Mick and Jerry could sit down around a few beers and probably laugh their a$$es off at this whole thing! You guys all make amazing tools that soldiers, LEO's, etc. have depended their lives on, and plain old regular Joe's like me enjoy using. Don't get bogged down in this mess!
Mick and Jerry could sit down around a few beers and probably laugh their a$$es off at this whole thing! You guys all make amazing tools that soldiers, LEO's, etc. have depended their lives on, and plain old regular Joe's like me enjoy using. Don't get bogged down in this mess!
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,671
Hey Mick.
No problem on my end.
sal
No problem on my end.
sal
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2003
- Messages
- 12,554
I have always thought it was cool that guys like Strider, Busse, Sal, and other manufactures read, and even occasionally posted on these forums.
When I bought my Dakota, I spent a lot of time on the Dodge Dakota forums(like over a year) and never saw anybody from Daimler Chrysler post one way or the other. Still makes me wonder, because it would have gained a lot of points for DC to have had a presence on that forum. Make the customers feel like you care, and all.
It is not a stupid thread, it originally asked a very good question, one that could be useful for those considering a purchase. The way that it got co-opted and politicized IS stupid.
I have never really liked Busse or Strider knives. As Strider said, there is an ass for every seat. I wish that I did like his knives, because I LOVE his attitude, absolutely 100%. There are, however, a whole lot of knife users out there who have chosen to use his stuff, and vigorously stand by it. I like to think that if a Strider user, who was by employment, in a hostile environment, and had thier knife fail, that they would still be alive, and able to post on these forums. Either way, we probably would have heard about it by now.
I have always found Jerry Busse to be an excellent person as well. I have the same problem with Busse Knives, that I have with Striders, they are big, thick, ugly knives. I love the Satin Jack, as an exception to the above statement. I ordered one about 1 1/2 years ago, and got an older model, which I promptly sent back. It looked like a big, old butter knife. I am sure that it would cut quite well. The customer service aspect of the business has been frustrating in the past and has not met with my expectations at all. I have spoken with whoever answers the phone at Busse about my frustrations, and have not attempted to speak with them in the last 9 months, things may have changed for the better by now.
I have a Thick NICK on order with Idaho Skunk that I look to use in the kitchen, hammering through frozen pork loins being a favorite test.
I was chopping down some bamboo last year with an Ang Khola from Himalayan Imports. I hit some rocks, and it banged the edge up really, really well, bending it back about 1/4" or more. Then I went into my garage, and sharpened out the bend. Wow, no more damage!
Anyone who expects to cut anything like concrete or rock without edge damage is either delusional or nuttier than a fruitcake. They make special masonry saws for cutting these materials. My thoughts would be if you have to cut concrete, use a concrete cutter.
My thoughts about Cliff Stamp have been published here, a peer reviewed forum. Every body needs an a****le, and at least we all know who the resident part is at the Bladeforums body. He even volunteered for the duty, one that you could not pay me for, although I do play an amateur from time to time, right, Brownshoe?
The above comments made me laugh, a lot, which I needed today, I assure you.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
When I bought my Dakota, I spent a lot of time on the Dodge Dakota forums(like over a year) and never saw anybody from Daimler Chrysler post one way or the other. Still makes me wonder, because it would have gained a lot of points for DC to have had a presence on that forum. Make the customers feel like you care, and all.
It is not a stupid thread, it originally asked a very good question, one that could be useful for those considering a purchase. The way that it got co-opted and politicized IS stupid.
I have never really liked Busse or Strider knives. As Strider said, there is an ass for every seat. I wish that I did like his knives, because I LOVE his attitude, absolutely 100%. There are, however, a whole lot of knife users out there who have chosen to use his stuff, and vigorously stand by it. I like to think that if a Strider user, who was by employment, in a hostile environment, and had thier knife fail, that they would still be alive, and able to post on these forums. Either way, we probably would have heard about it by now.
I have always found Jerry Busse to be an excellent person as well. I have the same problem with Busse Knives, that I have with Striders, they are big, thick, ugly knives. I love the Satin Jack, as an exception to the above statement. I ordered one about 1 1/2 years ago, and got an older model, which I promptly sent back. It looked like a big, old butter knife. I am sure that it would cut quite well. The customer service aspect of the business has been frustrating in the past and has not met with my expectations at all. I have spoken with whoever answers the phone at Busse about my frustrations, and have not attempted to speak with them in the last 9 months, things may have changed for the better by now.
I have a Thick NICK on order with Idaho Skunk that I look to use in the kitchen, hammering through frozen pork loins being a favorite test.
I was chopping down some bamboo last year with an Ang Khola from Himalayan Imports. I hit some rocks, and it banged the edge up really, really well, bending it back about 1/4" or more. Then I went into my garage, and sharpened out the bend. Wow, no more damage!
Anyone who expects to cut anything like concrete or rock without edge damage is either delusional or nuttier than a fruitcake. They make special masonry saws for cutting these materials. My thoughts would be if you have to cut concrete, use a concrete cutter.
My thoughts about Cliff Stamp have been published here, a peer reviewed forum. Every body needs an a****le, and at least we all know who the resident part is at the Bladeforums body. He even volunteered for the duty, one that you could not pay me for, although I do play an amateur from time to time, right, Brownshoe?
The above comments made me laugh, a lot, which I needed today, I assure you.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
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