whose warranties cover unintentional abuse/breakage?

[jedi_pimp]

[5555555555555555555555555555

 

[Steven Roos]

Our warrantee is simple.
If you are dissatisfied, we will do what we can to make it right. If you break a knife, we’ll replace it. If we WONT replace it, (because you’re an idiot) we WILL give you back your money. Period!

Now THAT is a warranty!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Mick :

How can you say our warrantee isn't as good as another, if you have never used it?

Because you specifically stated that if I did ask for a replacement the knife would be marked as abused and the warrenty voided. I don't need to test it when the maker clearly states it and the description is inferior.

Your logic is flawed. If I sell a knife and I describe the warrenty as being voided as soon as the knife is used, does a user have to buy the knife, use it, void the warrenty, try to get it replaced, fail to do so - all before he can state the warrenty is weaker than Spyderco's?

Hardly, you can infer that from the written statement.

...why should knife companies give you product to do it?

Ask them and find out, lots do.

Are you being asked or paid to do it?

It costs me about $1000 or so per year to do it (not including the cost of the knives I buy), mostly in duty and returns to makers, plus pass around to other members.

I get asked usually by users, often by manufacturers, like Sal and the Chinook, Kirk and his bowie, A.G. Russell and the Deerhunters, P.J. and the Uluchet, Bill and the khukuris, Busse and the Camp Tramp, etc. .

I have a standing policy of not accepting free knives or discounts because of reviews. All reviewed knives go back to the mankfacturer or out to an extended passaround. So no, I don't get paid.

So then should we send a new knife to ANYONE who decides to put it in a vise and break it?

If it breaks before you said it would yes. It isn't a hard concept to grasp, the knife should be able to do what it is promoted to do.

You promoted the knives as whacking into concrete, I did it, the knife suffered functional damage. You stated it was abused and the warrenty was voided.

This isn't a strong warrenty, lots of makers offer stronger warrenties, meaning that you can do with their knives what they say their knives can do.

So, do you full custom folders have the same torque weakness as the Buck/Strider versions? Would they have done any better than the Chinook I recently used in the batoning/prying?

Can I chop and baton on the Strider folders, will the blade break before the lock on sideways loads? Do you guarantee the flex limit that was described in the test linked to in the above?

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

1) Cuttingtest - pulling:
Testmedium here was the by now known Polyporpylenrope with an 8mm (0.315") diameter. Tested was, how well the knive will cut through that rope with a pulling cut and normal pressure applied. Several trials were done one after another, the number of cuts needed to finally cut through the rope were noted. At the end of that test an average was calculated. These were compared and points given in analogy to the cutting performance.



2) Cuttingtest - pushing down:
Testmedium was again the 8mm (0.315") Polypropylenrope. Tested was, how good the knive would cut through the rope only by pushing down, no longitudinal movement. Here the blade was pressed down hard with both hands. It wsa measured, how deep the blade could penetrate the rope or how often a rocking/swaying (?) motion ws needed to cut through the rope. At the end of this test, again an average was calculated. These were compared and points given in analogy to the cutting perfomance.



3) Test - edge retention:
To test the staiblity of the edge and the wear while using it, a very nasty material was cut : a steel square tub (St-37). The edge was pulled over the edge of that square tub several times with light pressure. Inbetween these cuts the edge was tested on the rope to compare how good or bad it could cut that one. Thereby it became clear, that the original edge and sharpness was lost very fast, still both knives could still cut even after several cuts on the square tub. In comparison the Strider SPB-S30V blade proved to keep its edge slightly better.

Was this with the NIB edge, or was it sharpened? Any difference in edge geometry could also be rectified in minutes on a x-coarse stone. Lots of knives come with low NIB sharpness, even the better brands occasionally release one under par.

The NIB cutting ability is of use to know, but you would also want to perform a quick sharpening, plus address the possibility of an edge rectification to increase cutting ability as this solution isn't known to a lot of users.

This will also allow you to comment on machinability of the steel, ease of polished vs coarse edge, etc. .

4) Grip - test:
The Knive's blade was mounted to a vice, the handle and hand were rubbed with the good and old-known Ballistol-weapon oil. This was done to simulate the effect of Dirt, blod and humidity. Here the secure grip and/or how easily it would slip out of the user's hand was tested. The subjective results were converted into points. Here the Strider proved to have a lot of grip in oily condition (not less than dry), while the Extrema Ratio was very slippery due to the smooht/slick surface.

That ER handle looked as funky as all get out to me, that isn't surprising. The strider grips have high security even when lubricated, both coard wrapped and G10.

5) Test blade tip:
To test the stability of the blade tip and also the whole knive construction while stabbing, both knives were pushed straight through a 2mm (0.079") thick steel plate (St-37 construction steel). Here a hydraulic press was used. the Strider GB bend noticably to the side, but flexed back into its inital position. At a hydraulic pressure of 85bar the tip broke off - exactly at the point of time where it completely penetrated the steel plate. The Extrema Ratio blade was "not impressed" (?), the locking bent at a pressure of 65bar though. The bolt safeguard of the locking (??) was not activated on purpose, to prevent the handle from blowing/breaking appart. With that safety a higher pressure would have been possible and the Fulcrum might have also penetrated the steel plate.

6) Lock(-ing) test
Both knives were first tested with spine-whacking, to perform a dynamic test to the lock. Here the back of both blades were repeatedly beaten onto a hard surfaceö Both knives passed the test without difficulties. Then a static test to the lock was performed with a hydraulic press. With a slowly raising pressure across the blade pivot, the maximum load was tested. The Fulcrums bolt/hammer of it's lock failed at a pressure of 70bar, releasing it's blade (without bolt safety/safeguard). With activated bolt safety a higher load would havebeen possible, until the whole handle would break apart. the liner locking mechanism of the Strider GM kept up until 80bar, untl the liner failed. The extreme load/force/stress (?) did not leave any marks on both knives.

Liner / integrals are quite strong under compression and vertical loads, however they are instable under side torques which can cause the bar to move across the lock. If this happens it can either disengage completely, or engage only partially and then a shear failure is trivial to achieve. You would want to examine this as it is the real problems with that type of lock, the raw strength is rarely a problem.

7)bending test blade:
Both blades were one after another put onto two pads/bases and put under presssure with the hydraulic press in the middle. The Strider GB blade proved to be of etreme elasticity - in spite of the powdermetallic steel (?). Not before a pressure of 83 bar (which resembles a high load in transverse direction), the blade broke into several parts. At that point of testing a bending degree of nearly 30° was reached. The extreme thick blade of the Extreme Ratio Fulcrum II passed that test nearly unimpressed. It kept up until the hydraulics maximum pressure of 85 bar was reached and moved back nearly to it's initial position. A slightly deviation of one to two degree (angular transformation) (?) was left.



8)bearing test:
To test the bearing and handle construction, both knives were put under vertical load/pressure with the hydraulic press.The knives were positioned in such way, that the handle was on the right, the blade on the left side based onto a block, putting pressure directly onto the bearing. The hydraulic press support point was immediatly behind the pivot. The Strider GB proved its impressive flexibility of its handle, which flexed back into its original state. Here the Ti-liners showed their strenght and flexibility. At a pressure of 80bar the outer ring of the pivot blew off. The Extrema Ratio Fulcrum also withstood 80bar, a permanent deformation of the handles stayed.

Here you would want to be a little closer to normal application, it is impossible to put pressure in the middle of a blade. Lock the tip and deflect the knife sideways to see if the blade breaks before the lock is damaged.

Interesting work anyway, did the ER guys ever comment on this?


-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

A bent knife is totally useless, I would rather have a broken useful part of a knife than a bent piece of metal that wont even go back into its sheath…..

Straighten it back out and then insert it back into the sheath. Can people really not see this solution?

Ray Kirk took his bent ABS bowie and straightned it with little effort into a fully functioning knife. If it broke in half it would have had to be welded, and rehardened, which is a lot harder to do for most people, especially unless you carry a paragon oven and a welder with you when "in the field", or of course an xpress remailer addressed to Bos and a plane on standby for delivery.

Any bent knife can also be converted into a broken knife by simply bending it further. So if you really get annoyed it didn't break and the fact that it will no go into the sheath, keep bending it until it snaps and then you can put the handle back into the sheath and put the blade pieces in the little pouch on the side, or use them for arrow heads, spear tips, or shaving implements.

Plus knives that tend to break with no flex, also tend to fracture under impact with no deformation as well, this isn't generally a good idea on a heavy use knife. That being said, I don't see the use for the extreme bends, like 180+ degrees, once a knife has gone beyond 45, it is hard to see it being functional at prying, and beyond 90, you can't even exert any force on it any more because the knife is perpendicular to what you are trying to actually leverage.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Are you a scientist? NO

I publish several papers each year in peer reviewed journals, several coming out right now, and being presenting at conferences.

I am currently doing research in solid state physics at Memorial University of Newfoundland while teaching first year university physics courses (three right now).

Would have had my PhD long ago except a teaching job came up that was too good to pass up on and it delayed the review process, which should complete this summer.

I actually head the physics department at the College of the North Atlantic, GrandFalls Windsor, oversee the development of the labs and the courses.

Want to give me a defination that I don't satisfy.

I rarely mention any of this because I don't think it is relevant to talking about the performance of a knife, which anyone can do. You don't need a degree in physics, just go out and use a few of them and say what happened.

I respected Clark's opinion long before I knew of his acedemic backgroud, I have no idea what Joe's is, and it doesn't matter to me in the slightest when I read what he has to say about locks, ergonomics, security, cutting ability etc. .


-Cliff

 

[soa]

Are you a scientist? NO

I publish several papers each year in peer reviewed journals, several coming out right now, and being presenting at conferences.

I am currently doing research in solid state physics at Memorial University of Newfoundland while teaching first year university physics courses

That'll do for me...

 

[Mongo-man]

:footinmou

 

[BlackShark]

Our warrantee is simple.
If you are dissatisfied, we will do what we can to make it right. If you break a knife, we’ll replace it. If we WONT replace it, (because you’re an idiot) we WILL give you back your money. Period!

To all Cliff Stamps out there:

Hmmm... Which part of 'if you break it, we'll replace it' don't you understand? ...

 

[BigMike]

To all Cliff Stamps out there:

Hmmm... Which part of 'if you break it, we'll replace it' don't you understand? ...

Obviously any part that's in English and follows a logical train of thought.

 

[zinn1348]

I would guess that a natural question for Mr. Strider concerning credentials is whether or not he's a scientist, or if he has one is his staff..... Also, what might be their area of expertise in the scientific realm?


Thomas Zinn

 

[jedi_pimp]

xggggggggggggggggggggggggg

 

[zinn1348]

My Jedi, you certainly seem to be running your mouth as well. I ask a simple question about creditials, and you take umbrage.

I am no one's parrot, have made my own knives for close to 30 years, been a soldier during the Viet Nam era and don't claim to be any kind of warrior.

You can continue with your tirade with some one else, I won't acknowledge your comments any further.

And yes, I own a Strider AR, it's a good knife, bought it from a forumite, so I can speak from first hand experience as to what I know about them.

Have a good life,

Thomas Zinn

 

[Aniketos]

I removed my post, no point in argueing here anymore....

 

[Jerry Busse]

In response to Cliff Stamp stating that “Mr. Busse has videos with his knives. . . ”

Mick Strider writes:

…if you like, I can show you a video of me lifting my dodge truck over my head…..do you always believe what you see in videos?

If you base your knife choice by a video…..you don’t need a Strider Knife…buy more videos instead.

m

Mick,

Insinuating that Busse Combat and Swamp Rat knife performance claims are based on video editing or trickery is not only fallacious but irresponsible.

We couple our video documentation with well documented "Live" demonstrations at the BLADE Show in Atlanta and other shows around the country. “Live” demonstrations negate the “video editing” argument.

If you have any more insinuations to make concerning Busse Combat or Swamp Rat knife performance or documentation, please let me know via private email instead of on a public forum.

Also, feel free to duplicate our performance tests in a “Live” demonstration at the BLADE Show as we have so many times before. I will be more than happy to send you the performance and testing criteria.

If you’d like, I’ll stand side by side with you in a “Live” comparative demonstration with one of our relatively inexpensive Swamp Rat blades, and vastly outperform ANY Strider CPM S30V blade in cutting, impact strength, lateral toughness, etc. . .

If you want to call Cliff Stamp names and infer that he has a conspiratorial “agenda” that’s your business. If you want to bring Busse Combat or Swamp Rat into the mix then you might want to rethink your strategy.

Jerry Busse
Busse Combat Knife Co.

 

[the45guy]

If you’d like, I’ll stand side by side with you in a “Live” comparative demonstration with one of our relatively inexpensive Swamp Rat blades, and vastly outperform ANY Strider CPM S30V blade in cutting, impact strength, lateral toughness, etc. . .

Jerry Busse
Busse Combat Knife Co.

 

[Normark]

Hey Guys...

Ok now it's getting interesting...
A multi brand Chop Off!

ttyle

Eric....

 

[the45guy]

yeah we can put the Busse folder up against the AR...oh wait what Busse folder ??

 

[Bohica2u]

Time for someone to go back to the "other" mall ninja forum (I suspect) where they belong before they hurt themselves. That way they can ban each other, make up, get unbanned, and THEN kiss each other's well proportioned buttocks. By the way; DO NOT play with firearms while you are watching a war movie (especially if you are underage) or play with sharp objects while taking ritalin. Work hard on your paper route this summer and maybe you can own your very own Strider knife (if mommy will let you) to use and carry at the mall in case terrorist ninjas decide to kidnap the teen girls working at the Gap.

Leave the Busses for real men, kids.

 

[Aniketos]

I removed my post, no point in argueing here anymore....