Why are gtinding jigs frowned upon?

Ive got a jig made out of aluminum square stock and drilled holes thru it and just bolt the knife to it (i have a tilting platen and place the jig on the work rest). I originally made it for my damascus blanks, ive screwed up more blades on the jig than i ever have free hand post HT. I find that I can freehand grind things wayyyyyyy faster than with the jig. But if your in the situation where you have to crank out like 20 of the same blade the jig would be the way to go for consistency. I agree whole heartily with elementfe i can crank out 3 blades in 3 or 4 hours while forging, plus a power hammer helps hide uneven forging sins.

I honestly think new people starting out grinding shouldnt use a jig, they should use thicker stock for their knives. Jigs have their place in production work IMO, naw mean.
 
I have a "jig" a 1-2-3 block I bolt some of my blades to and tilt my platen. I am using it less and less and I'm free hand all of my post HT grinding. I'm also using a technique now I haven't read about, but is working better for me which is free handing my grinds, but tilting my platen to a close angle to what I want. After 25 years of construction I guess my hands have better muscle memory to holding something level than trying to learn to hold it on an angle. It's working very well for me.
 
I get jiggy all the time.

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-Peter
 
I basically freehand 60% of what I do, like when I'm trying out a new design as it's usually a progression by feel, but once I have a design set the way I like it, I set the jig/fixture to the angle that matches what I had done and that way it's more repeatable for me. I can't imaging how much more filing and sanding it would take to match designs close enough by freehand alone for me as my grinding just isn't that perfect.
 
Any maker that produces specific designs, repeatedly, and wants to do so consistently and do this in a timely manner, they will benefit from a using a fixture. If you get to the end of a grind and you find yourself blending unmatched surfaces, you're working to hard and would benefit from a fixture. The most difficult part of grinding bevels should be at the beginning, when the bevel angle is set, with the easy part coming at the end. This happens when surfaces match.
When I tell a maker they will cut the grinding time in half and will end up with more exact geometry on their blades, they start listening.


At this point in time I am making knives where there is no time restraint, so it makes little difference the amount of time I spend making a knife. If I am in money making mode, I would only grind using a fixture that would give me more accuracy along with taking much less time.

I wear a few different hats. When I make a Queen Ann drop leaf table I do so using 4 different fixtures. I could not get the results I do without them. It would take me at least twice the amount of time to produce the table without the use of these fixtures and I would not get the same fit.

Don't let the social pressure of some old salt, telling you free hand is the only way a "real" knife maker grinds blades, keep you from working smart and in this fast paced world that means taking advantage of ever technique and every tool available to you.

Enjoy the trip, Fred
 
Fred I'm going to have to try one of your bubbles. I'm doing more and more long blades and think a bubble would help get the primary grind set faster across the entire length. Currently on long blades I grind in sections and then blend the sections as the edge bevel gets taller.

I think the reasion knife makers in general frown on "jigs" is to them it's cheating. Like my self Most Have spent crazy amounts of time standing in front of a belt honing our grinding skills. I take pride in being able to grind this way without any rests, handles or clamps. Like a painter that starts with a blank canvas and nothing but a brush and paints a beautiful painting. With the knife making market being flooded with so many new people I can see how the people that have put so much time into learning this craft can get annoyed when a new person slaps a laser cut blank into a jig and moves it across the belt and bam a knife. I know nothing is this simple but comparing the painter above to some one that paints a simaler painting but uses a paint by number canvis and then delutes the market with lower prices becaus he is just trying to get he name out there can rub people the wrong way. At this point jigs then are looked at for a way for new people to bypass all the years of practis and jump right into the major leagues.

I am not agents any jigs, fixtures, handles or rests. I use what works for me and allows me to make the best "hand made" knife possible. But I also believe that if you call your self a "knife maker" you should be well rounded and not paint by numbers.
 
JTknives said:
I know nothing is this simple but comparing the painter above to some one that paints a simaler painting but uses a paint by number canvis and then delutes the market with lower prices becaus he is just trying to get he name out there can rub people the wrong way. At this point jigs then are looked at for a way for new people to bypass all the years of practis and jump right into the major leagues.
Click to expand...

JT - If I were to place myself in your scenario; Because I use a jig, I create "paint by numbers" knives that are intended to flood the market at cut-rate prices because I'm trying to make a name for myself. Huh?

This topic always seems to raise the cackles. Look, I'm sure others have their reasons. I use a jig because I have trouble grinding freehand with a nerve-damaged left arm and hand. However, like you, I have spent many, many hours at the grinder gaining skill and confidence. I am now proud that I can do sweeping plunges that are perfectly matched(not quote as easy with a jig as some might believe). I am proud that I can bring a long, recurve blade to a hair-fine finished edge with my jig(again, not quite as easy as some may think) Indeed, I take a great deal of pride in the fact that I can produce a piece that attains my standard of quality and styling no matter how many "crutches" I use along the way. I also a drill press, files, and a file guide for guard slots - not hot drifting. And I use a Dremmel router to shape my wooden sheath inlays, not freehand with chisel and gouge.

Should I start describing my knives as "jig ground"?
And, I wonder if you, or anyone, would be able to tell the difference by looking at the finished product. And if you couldn't, why would it matter?

-Peter
 
Not trying to ruffle any feathers here gents.
JT I can completely understand where your coming from on that perspective thats why in my OP I said "I'd it's for pride i understand " I definitely plan on learning free hand or atleast tim hancock style. I do believe some makers blur the line between handmade and production. Hey if that's what they wanna do more power to them. I will never use a CNC machine to cut everything out including bevels. Just not my style. I just never understood why some guys get flack for using a grinding jig if everything else is done by hand. But I can see where JT and other makers may get upset by the dilution. This is a craft after all
 
I think I was miss understood. I was NOT saying that's how I feel. I was saying that's how some makes could feel. At the bottom I said use what works but be well rounded.
 
I use jigs for shortening screws on every folder I make, shortening every pivot on my folders, pivot inlays, indexing screws, grinding clips and sometimes on blades. I usually finish freehand no matter what so I can get my lines just where I want them but the grinding jig (sled) helps me get there quicker. I like to be able to do anything I want to in the shop and that includes jigs or freehand.

I ground 1000's of blades freehand before I tried a jig on a folder blade... you have to attach a folder blade to something for leverage so I made a "sled" out of a square of Aluminum and I like how it works. I still do most of my blades freehand from start to finish.

I'd learn to grind freehand but that's just my opinion! If you made scandi knives only a jig would make the most sense... wild recurves and convex tips only freehand might do.

I like to do what my customers want but I doubt they care if a jig is used or not... I'm doing this to feed my family and above all because it is my passion.
 
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To me this is just a case of "to each their own " I've burned through a butt load of metal and even more frustration trying to free hand on a 2x42. It gets pretty depressing and I don't want to quote so I was looking into maybe a jig for the initial bevel to help me out.
 
JT - Likewise. My response wasn't to skewer you at all. I just take exception with the sweeping jig-use rationale you attributed to "knife makers in general". I surely hope that isn't the popular perception.

-Peter
 
Normally this "jig" discussion is sparked by new makers who have a hard time grinding by hand and are looking for an easyer way to bypass the years of experience needed to become proficient in grinding by hand. I can't fault them for this becaus no one wants to mess up steel. But it's part of the learning experance and quite valuable in the long run. Fixtures can be quite useful in creating repeatable results and help an unsteady hand.

The only thing that kinda gets to me is under pricing your work. Your time is valuable and so is the work you put into a knife. So pricing your knife crazy cheep because your doing it on the side or because your new just hurts the craft. If you can provide the quality then ask for an aproporate price. If your trying to get your name out there nothing works better then giving away knives for free.
 
I am going to leave this right here.



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And with Adam's post I think we've come full circle to the last time this was discussed :cool:

When I hear "jig ground" I think perpendicularity, form and position measured to the 4th decimal place on a Moore.
 
I have a question...

Are you guys using handmade fixtures and jigs, or are you cheating with CNC made fixtures and jigs? ANYBODY can make a knife with a machine made jig.

Just sayin'....
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
I use jigs for shortening screws on every folder I make, shortening every pivot on my folders, pivot inlays, indexing screws, grinding clips and sometimes on blades. I usually finish freehand no matter what so I can get my lines just where I want them but the grinding jig (sled) helps me get there quicker. I like to be able to do anything I want to in the shop and that includes jigs or freehand.

I ground 1000's of blades freehand before I tried a jig on a folder blade... you have to attach a folder blade to something for leverage so I made a "sled" out of a square of Aluminum and I like how it works. I still do most of my blades freehand from start to finish.

I'd learn to grind freehand but that's just my opinion! If you made scandi knives only a jig would make the most sense... wild recurves and convex tips only freehand might do.

I like to do what my customers want but I doubt they care if a jig is used or not... I'm doing this to feed my family and above all because it is my passion.
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The funny thing is I free handgrind all my blades, and I make flipper knives. I don't use an extension handle or push stick, I saw a video of Brad Southard doing it free hand and I was determined to get that skill. I have jigs and haveno problems with anyone using them, I choose to do free hand for as long as I can because quite frankly I spent way too much time learning the skill and the upsweep at the end of my hollow grinds can only be done freehand.

My only beef is when guys use extension handles or some other aid and claim they are free handing.... or you see them use a tool rest.... as I said I don't care how anyone makes their knives or what they use, just identify it correctly. Like guys that claim handmade in house but outsource to a waterjet place... again no one cares, just identify what you do correctly.
 
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knife to a gunfight said:
I have a question...

Are you guys using handmade fixtures and jigs, or are you cheating with CNC made fixtures and jigs? ANYBODY can make a knife with a machine made jig.

Just sayin'....
Click to expand...

Ha! Nice

After that, we can ask whether or not they programmed the CNC or supplied the drawing ... or at least are in the same room as the machine making the knife for them. Where does it end, right. For me it is simple ...

If you don't start by locating the ore and smelting your own bloom, YOU AIN'T NO KNIFEMAKER!
 
Rick Marchand said:
If you don't start by locating the ore and smelting your own bloom, YOU AIN'T NO KNIFEMAKER!
Click to expand...

Everybody check out Mr. Fancy Pants with his modern Iron Age technologies! REAL knife makers are knapping chert rock with another rock. Of course, even that is going to be controversial for all your sharpened stick purists.... those neanderthals!
 
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