Why are we drawn to fat blades?

Father & Son Traditional Sharpening said:
Thin does cut better in general unless you are doing deep cuts on something like wood. In that case the added thickness really does increase the cutting ability and fluidity of the knife in the cut. For me this is the pretty much only reason to have a thick knife beyond the additional lateral strength. What many don't also realize is that a knife which is twice the thickness as another does not equal a knife with twice the strength at the spine. It is nonlinear and the added strength is many times more then the knife half the thickness. So it doesn't really take a knife being .33" thick to be unbreakable when it's made of Infi. I'd say anything over 3/16" to 210" will be virtually indestructible no matter the blade length.
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Added thickness doesn’t change a thing at all in cutting wood IMO other than hinder it. Thinner blades have just fine “fluidity” (whatever that is😂), only better than thick blades - because they cut better. I’m not talking splitting mauls, I’m talking cutting with knives.

I’d venture to say a lot of guys on here couldn’t bust a 1/8” thick blade with hand force. It’s harder than you think. Knives these days are made thick to be “Bubba proof” I guess.
 
AntDog said:
Added thickness doesn’t change a thing at all in cutting wood IMO other than hinder it. Thinner blades have just fine “fluidity” (whatever that is😂), only better than thick blades - because they cut better. I’m not talking splitting mauls, I’m talking cutting with knives.

I’d venture to say a lot of guys on here couldn’t bust a 1/8” thick blade with hand force. It’s harder than you think. Knives these days are made thick to be “Bubba proof” I guess.
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You are making a very broad statement when you say 'cutting wood', please note that I said 'deep cuts'. We may be talking apples to oranges because when I say knives, I'm generally not considering anything with edges that are 25-35 DPS in the equation as I consider that to be more along the lines of a 'knife-like object' in the sense that it looks like a knife but it does not cut at all how I expect a knife to cut because it actually behaves more like a chisel than a knife in many ways..

You see when a knife is that obtuse at the edge it doesn't penetrate very deep at all into wood unless you are chisel cutting through it by pounding on it like a caveman. I'd go out on a limb and say you've probably never chopped with a knife around 15 DPS if you don't think there's a difference there. Thick blades can cut very well in general assuming they are kept thin behind the edge. However, for most cutting, generally there is little reason to have such a thick blade as you mention.

Case in point, the Mega Ratmandu series was said (by the maker) to have much higher cutting ability than the standard 3/16" saber ground Ratmandu. This is not at all surprising consider it had the following...

1: much thinner edge geometry, to such a degree that on some of these knives the edge bevel is VERY narrow to be approaching the point of what one may call a micro bevel
2: twice the spine thickness (you will notice this again mainly on deep AND high force cuts as in heavy chopping)
3: Much higher primary grind which was ground in such a way that the knife stays thinner up into the primary grind.
 
No, I’d never put a 15° edge on a chopper because I don’t want them full of dings and chips. I have a few shorter fixed blades and folders with pretty low edge angles and yes they cut great.

All things considered, thinner stock blades cut better than thicker stock. They just do. I can’t think of even one instance where the opposite would be true. I have never tried any of the Mega stuff and don’t think I want to. The spines on those things instantly turn me off.
 
AntDog said:
No, I’d never put a 15° edge on a chopper because I don’t want them full of dings and chips. I have a few shorter fixed blades and folders with pretty low edge angles and yes they cut great.

All things considered, thinner stock blades cut better than thicker stock. They just do. I can’t think of even one instance where the opposite would be true. I have never tried any of the Mega stuff and don’t think I want to. The spines on those things instantly turn me off.
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What knives have you used that were 15 DPS that ended up full of dings and chips on wood?
 
I can also look over a 150 foot cliff and think “bet it would hurt if I jumped off” and have the sense not to do so. No need to prove it to myself.

The wood I get is mostly a mix of seasoned post oak and hickory. The shit is iron hard, like chopping freaking rebar. If I were to wail through stuff like this with a 15° edge that blade might be looking like a serrated Ginsu afterward. No need to prove it to myself that it wouldn’t.

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AntDog said:
I can also look over a 150 foot cliff and think “bet it would hurt if I jumped off” and have the sense not to do so. No need to prove it to myself.

The wood I get is mostly a mix of seasoned post oak and hickory. The shit is iron hard, like chopping freaking rebar. If I were to wail through stuff like this with a 15° edge that blade might be looking like a serrated Ginsu afterward. No need to prove it to myself that it wouldn’t.

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AntDog said:
None. I told you I wouldn’t put a 15° edge on a chopper. There’s no need.
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There is a need if you are required to work quickly/efficiently and conserve energy with the tool and you're not just hacking away for fun. Unfortunately, we all know what will happen if you jump off a cliff that big. What we truly, in fact, do not know is exactly what the results would be in YOUR specific use case for that specific knife at 15 DPS. Until you actually take it to that geometry your thoughts on the subject are mere speculation and would be better kept to yourself rather than being presented as fact on a forum where there are plenty of folks who are likely to take your word as being truth without so much as a second thought, let alone taking the time to run an experiment for themselves to find out on their own.

The basic concept is to take the knife geometry to the failure point in the hardest use that it will see and then slightly thicken from there to end up with the best balance of cutting ability and strength for your application. If you haven't taken it to the failure point then you are likely to be using a tool which is severely overbuilt for your uses. People here have done tests with INFI at very low edge angles and I believe you would be surprised at what sort of edge geometry it can hold if you're willing to put in this effort to maximize cutting ability. I would say the main factor that prevents people from doing this is not understanding how much edge angles correlate to cutting ability and underestimating the strength of steel.

The following video is from Cliff Stamp (RIP) which does well to outline the basic proces. He is using a very inexpensive folding knife to aggressively cut slices of hardwood flooring to establish this as the hardest use and work out what edge geometry will have the highest cutting ability yet not take any visible damage to the apex. It's worth noting that many people here would tell you that you need 20 DPS for most knives and anything less will cause a terrible failure. The damage he observed at sub-10 DPS was significant because of the twisting of the blade in the wood exerting lateral forces to ripple the apex. As soon as he cuts the damage off and resets at sightly higher angle the damage goes away almost completely.

 
AntDog said:
Added thickness doesn’t change a thing at all in cutting wood IMO other than hinder it. Thinner blades have just fine “fluidity” (whatever that is😂), only better than thick blades - because they cut better. I’m not talking splitting mauls, I’m talking cutting with knives.

I’d venture to say a lot of guys on here couldn’t bust a 1/8” thick blade with hand force. It’s harder than you think. Knives these days are made thick to be “Bubba proof” I guess.
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It's also worth mentioning that the knife you posted picture of just now would qualify as a fat blade in my book. Anything over 3/16" I would say goes to the point of being fat, so I'm really not sure what exactly you consider a fat blade. I know many here would probably go by Busse standards and say that's anything over say .31" thick. Fat is all relative so unless we're talking specific measurements it's likely we all don't agree on what that even means exactly.
 
Father & Son Traditional Sharpening said:
It's also worth mentioning that the knife you posted picture of just now would qualify as a fat blade in my book. Anything over 3/16" I would say goes to the point of being fat, so I'm really not sure what exactly you consider a fat blade. I know many here would probably go by Busse standards and say that's anything over say .31" thick. Fat is all relative so unless we're talking specific measurements it's likely we all don't agree on what that even means exactly.
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No, it’s not worth mentioning because that wasn’t my point. My point posting that picture was that I wouldn’t put a 15° edge on that knife.

Also, I don’t consider Cliff Stamp to be the be all, end all knife usage guru. He was an interesting guy and had some interesting thoughts on knives but that’s about it to me.

I like “overbuilt for my uses”. That pretty much sums up what I aim for. You have no f@cking business telling me my thoughts are better kept to myself until I do some type of arbitrary test (mandated by you) on my knives.

This is all the time I am going to waste on this.
 
AntDog said:
No, it’s not worth mentioning because that wasn’t my point. My point posting that picture was that I wouldn’t put a 15° edge on that knife.

Also, I don’t consider Cliff Stamp to be the be all, end all knife usage guru. He was an interesting guy and had some interesting thoughts on knives but that’s about it to me.

I like “overbuilt for my uses”. That pretty much sums up what I aim for. You have no f@cking business telling me my thoughts are better kept to myself until I do some type of arbitrary test (mandated by you) on my knives.

This is all the time I am going to waste on this.
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So my takeaway here and please correct me if I'm wrong...


Refuse to give clarification of what is 'fat' blade.... check

Present a theory and be rude upon critical review.... check.

Ignoring a valid approach to dialing in edge angles.... check.

Discussing performance testing methods is also a waste.... check.

Personal commentary on Cliff Stamp ignoring his life's work .... check.




I'm not trying to be difficult here but I'd have to agree that you have wasted your time. I have not wasted my time as it may help others here to not be mislead by your statements and oversimplified generalizations of a very nuanced subject matter.

You can share your thoughts all you want but realize that this is a public forum and without sharing direct experience to suport you thoughts there's always the chance that someone will challenge your beliefs and there will be nothing to cite for reference. Your words came off as though you hold yourself to be a 'subject matter expert' who knows exactly what will happen but you then admitted that you have no actual experience using knives in this way at that specific geometry.
 
RobStanley said:
Have fun, be happy 😊 Enjoy the knives we love. That is all that is required.
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I’d like to second this. I made this thread without “performance” in mind. Just the phenomena of how thick knives draw our attention.

That MOAB of yours especially triggers a sensation of mental salivation for STEEL. Knice blade!! I regret selling my WTF, that was another beautiful slab of INFI😁


Let’s try to keep this thread about eye googaling thick blades without a worry of performance. 🙏
 
Father & Son Traditional Sharpening said:
So my takeaway here and please correct me if I'm wrong...


Refuse to give clarification of what is 'fat' blade.... check

Present a theory and be rude upon critical review.... check.

Ignoring a valid approach to dialing in edge angles.... check.

Discussing performance testing methods is also a waste.... check.

Personal commentary on Cliff Stamp ignoring his life's work .... check.




I'm not trying to be difficult here but I'd have to agree that you have wasted your time. I have not wasted my time as it may help others here to not be mislead by your statements and oversimplified generalizations of a very nuanced subject matter.

You can share your thoughts all you want but realize that this is a public forum and without sharing direct experience to suport you thoughts there's always the chance that someone will challenge your beliefs and there will be nothing to cite for reference. Your words came off as though you hold yourself to be a 'subject matter expert' who knows exactly what will happen but you then admitted that you have no actual experience using knives in this way at that specific geometry.
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Completely ignore and twist around everything I posted to fit your bullshit narrative?… ✅

Let me address your points.

I did not refuse to give clarification of what a fat blade is. IMO it’s above 3/16”. Satisfied?

What theory did I present exactly? That a chopper sharpened to 15° would probably get fubar doing what I do with one? Your “critical review” amounts to nada IMO, and I was not rude. Simply stood my ground.

“Ignoring a valid approach to dialing in edge angles” - ? Lmao, “valid” because you say so? Now here you go presenting opinions as facts. Anybody’s method of dialing in edge angles is the right way - FOR THEM. This is all a matter of opinion, not fact.

Discussing performance testing methods is also a waste - where exactly did I say that?

Personal commentary on Cliff Stamp ignoring his life's work - Nope. Read what I posted again. I didn’t ignore anything, I simply didn’t put him on the pedestal you seem to.

Now, twist that around to fit the square pegs into round holes. By the way, I hear you don’t even Busse, bro - so where’s your leg to stand on? More like a kickstand.
 
AntDog said:
Completely ignore and twist around everything I posted to fit your bullshit narrative?… ✅

Let me address your points.

I did not refuse to give clarification of what a fat blade is. IMO it’s above 3/16”. Satisfied?

What theory did I present exactly? That a chopper sharpened to 15° would probably get fubar doing what I do with one? Your “critical review” amounts to nada IMO, and I was not rude. Simply stood my ground.

“Ignoring a valid approach to dialing in edge angles” - ? Lmao, “valid” because you say so? Now here you go presenting opinions as facts. Anybody’s method of dialing in edge angles is the right way - FOR THEM. This is all a matter of opinion, not fact.

Discussing performance testing methods is also a waste - where exactly did I say that?

Personal commentary on Cliff Stamp ignoring his life's work - Nope. Read what I posted again. I didn’t ignore anything, I simply didn’t put him on the pedestal you seem to.

Now, twist that around to fit the square pegs into round holes. By the way, I hear you don’t even Busse, bro - so where’s your leg to stand on? More like a kickstand.
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Thanks for sharing that, we both in fact DO agree on something then (3/16"+)

Your statement that 15 degrees would fail in such a dramatic way on your use is only but a theory if you do not actually put that into practice to see what happens.

'Critic'al review meaning I have stated that I don't believe it will work exactly how you describe based on my understanding of edge angles and explained why I felt it was incorrect.

Can you please share what makes Cliff's approach to getting the most ideal cutting geometry invalid? I'm asserting that it's perfectly valid if it resulted in an acute edge that has sufficient strength.

You said you weren't going to waste your time anymore discussing this... AND ..... we are discussing how you would test for performance at a given angle and adjust as necessary.

I don't hold Cliff on a pedestal but I respect his work and understand most of what he taught, you on the other hand seemed to casually discard it as nothing more than 'he had some interesting ideas'. Many here prefer 'hype' so I understand.

I do not have time to use Busse anymore due to family obligations, perhaps you will hold it against me? My customers are using them at low angles (what many would call 'extreme low angles') and are happy and that's what matters. If an edge shows some visible damage from going too low then I fix it for them and put a small bevel on the edge that's a bit more obtuse to thicken up the edge. I'd say that's putting it into practice well enough from my perspective!

Interesting that my lack of using Busse knives these days is a way to invalidate my views on the subject but you don't see your lack of experience running 15 degrees on a chopper blade as invalidating your views on the subject.
 
Folks, can we knock it off now, please?
Thanks.
There are other sub-forums on this site y'all can go to finish this discussion between you 2 if you still wanna debate it out.
 
What Jaxx said.

You know there is always PM's and E-mails for you to argue back and forth on
 
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