Why buy a handmade that is not really a made by hand?

I usually buy based on the design, performance, fit, and finish. Whether the maker achieves this by forging raw steel while standing naked on a remote cliff face, or by using every advantage of modern tooling, is irrelevant to me. A truely custom knife is something designed to a unique specification. Production variations resulting from hand tooling are just qualitative defects.

Most of our knife smiths can do things with steel that no machine will ever replicate. We can appreciate that; but, it still comes down to a superior product rather then the means used to produce it.

n2s
 
Chuck,

How long have you been making knives to have never repeated yourself. If I liked one of your knives and wanted one exactly like it would you make me one? If yes then what are you griping about? If your design was requested enough would you have people be turned away or update your manufacturing methods. If you don't you are leaving money on the table and are a hobbyist in the broadest sense of the word.

I've seen Allen's shop and he may at one time (IIRC) had runs laser cut. I remember him saying they were a pain in the ass since you have to rework them to spec anyway. You can't get the tolerances like he does by strappin sandpaper on your ass and scooting on the blade. You may have some folks that can file a flawless knife but I bet most knifemakers couldn't.

Don't mistake that some makers will *make* a serious living. They treat this as a business. People you name have probably done more singly or together to push the knives available than a hundred weekend welders with Sears sanders. Part of their plan I would assume it to *MAKE* money. Otherwise it is a hobby. To *make* good money you have to either sell very many knives or very expensive knives.

Why would I care if my cabinet maker cut the tree down or bought lumber. That is at a maximum seed stock for an idea. As long as he doesn't lie and tell me it grew out of his ass, all I care about is the workmanship and style. If he carved it all by hand and it looked and functioned like crap why would I want it...

I would bitch if a unknown assistant did the work or like some makers are suspected... Have "customs" pretty fully made in Taiwan and sent back here for electro etch with their mark. Just like brown bagging outside shows, it is a question of honesty. If you are told the truth great. If not...
 
Originally posted by SammyB


I would bitch if a unknown assistant did the work or like some makers are suspected... Have "customs" pretty fully made in Taiwan and sent back here for electro etch with their mark.
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Ok, when somone posts something like this I just have to ask, who exactly are you talking about here?
 
But that sound scary, Keith !!

Let me choose my words carefully ...

I have to say that as a relative newbie, I've sometimes not been able to recreate a particular pattern on blade / forge out that specific shape or cut more than 1, maybe 2 exact patterns on my bandsaw without getting into too much effort about it. My bandsaw just can't hack it (pun intended). Thats fine; I could "sell" that as uniqueness and personally I've found that very satisfying in the end. Someone else's already said - if we're not enjoying ourselves, why do it ?

But part of me has been wondering - can I get some specific patterns water-jet cut at the right price ? I know exactly what I want, and I've made 3-4 of the "prototypes" anyway> I like them, customers like them etc. What if I could have 25 of those cut and I slowly work on the over a 1 year period, depending on how much everything cost (probably not less, by the way) I could charge a bit less for each knife, after all, I'm doing everything else myself, including all the grinding and HT etc.

In the end, I do what works for me, and if the customer is satisfied that thats the "personality" of the knife that they are after, they might even give me a few dollars for one.

I think Sammy B has a point when he says that many will treat it as a business. I want to add to that. I think that like any art form, and I fully consider knifemaking an art form, it is still passion for the knifemaking (I hope) that drives the work behind each and every knife. Its just that some people NEED to make a living from this thing they enjoy. So there is a fine line between what each maker considers acceptable to their own philosophy to meet both ends - enjoyment and finances. That fine line is for each maker to clarify for themselves.

I hope this post makes sense, I'm pretty tired and my brain went to sleep some hours ago, I think. Cheers. Jason.
 
There are many ways to make a knife. It is the customer who chooses which knife to buy, and, what factors are important to him/her in making that choice.
If you want a pure custom, totally "hand-made" with no CNC machines used, then buy from makers who make their knives that way.
If you are a maker, and that is how you want to make your knives, then, do that. BUT DO NOT PUT DOWN THOSE WHO CHOOSE ANOTHER METHOD!
You only make yourself look foolish.

It is that simple.

I employ a level of technology in my shop that is state of the art.
I have a CNC, a mill, a lapping machine and a surface grinder (manual). And, 3 heat treat furnaces that, in total, cost about $8K.
Am I supposed to feel bad because I use these machines to do things that could not be done consistently without them? I don't think do!

There is a gross misconception that CNC's produce parts that are simply assembled without any work from the maker. Every part that I produce on a CNC requires the same manual finishing operations that would be required if it was hand made. The only difference is, that I can hold a profile to within .001, a thickness to .0002 and a hole location to within .0005
Try doing that by hand!

What my customers want is HIGH PRECISION cutting tools. That is what I deliver.
 
I don't want to comment on anything since I think Coop and Kit and others have said everything I want to say. But, I do want to say that it is *very* irresponsible to start naming names like Allen's when you are just wrong.

http://www.elishewitzknives.com/faq.htm

Having dealt with him I found him to be as friendly and more importantly honest and earnest a guy as you could hope to meet. You must be more than careful when saying things in a public forum, especially when talking about others' reputations.
 
Hey sammyB,
I have been making fixed blades for about 10 years and folders for the last 2-1/2 years. I have made close to 100 different folders. If you asked me to make you a knife like one I had already done I would say I could make you something similar, but not exactly the same. It's not that I couldn't do it, I just chose not to.
 
In an effort not to confuse the issue, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I've been under the impression that some mosaic type damascus is made with the use of a wire EDM machine to cut the parts out to pattern, before forging it all back together. Seems like I recall a few prominent bladesmiths doing that in some magazine articles. IHMO, there are things that you just cannot do without the use of the high tech machines, no matter what kind of maker you are.

RJ,
I was going to post what you did earlier but I figured it's been said so many times already, it would just be another waste of time :(
 
Danbo's out of popcorn so I'm gonna comment. Short story...a maker from Australia visitied my shop last year and we compared notes on how we make damascus. The Aussie used a sledge hammer and anvil for several years. I used a power hammmer and hydraulic press while he was in my shop.
After witnessing the wonders of a press and hammer the Aussie went home and built a hammer and a press. Why? He was killing himself by tearing up his arm trying to make steel like a caveman. He now can make damascus more efficiently, with cleaner welds, and has broadened the patterns he can achieve in a much more timely fashion. Is there anything wrong with using modern equipment? I don't think so.
So where do you draw the line? Is it okay for a maker use a little modern equipment for his knives or is there a law that says he should'nt.
I believe a collector should decide what kind of knife he wants to collect. If the method in which the knife is made is an issue...he should seek out a maker that will make the knife using methods he approves of. It's still a free country. We can all choose the makers and methods by which they supply a product without condemming those who may beleive differently from our own personal viewpoint.
Danbo....more corn please.
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery "Though in some cases this may well be true, I believe that there are many makers that just don't like to make the same knife twice. It has nothing to do with not having found a truely great design."


Keith, how many makers do you know that have not repeated a design or pattern in their careers? Other than Chuck, and some guys who do this as a hobby, I can't think of ANY! Yes, some make will make only one knife to customer's designs or requests, but the bulk of the business is in making specific patterns of their own design.
 
Originally posted by rj martin
There are many ways to make a knife. It is the customer who chooses which knife to buy, and, what factors are important to him/her in making that choice.
If you want a pure custom, totally "hand-made" with no CNC machines used, then buy from makers who make their knives that way.
If you are a maker, and that is how you want to make your knives, then, do that. BUT DO NOT PUT DOWN THOSE WHO CHOOSE ANOTHER METHOD!
You only make yourself look foolish.

It is that simple.
Click to expand...

Hear, hear!


Originally posted by Kit Carson
I've been under the impression that some mosaic type damascus is made with the use of a wire EDM machine to cut the parts out to pattern, before forging it all back together. Seems like I recall a few prominent bladesmiths doing that in some magazine articles. IHMO, there are things that you just cannot do without the use of the high tech machines, no matter what kind of maker you are.
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That's true. I know that at least Pierre Reverdy, in France, uses this method. Anyone thinking that Mr. Reverdy isn't a "true" custom maker and artists should check his site: http://www.reverdy.com/pages/indgalerie.htm
 
Originally posted by Kit Carson

RJ,
I was going to post what you did earlier but I figured it's been said so many times already, it would just be another waste of time :(
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Actually Kit, it has not been a waste of time; at least not in my case. From what has been written on knife forums I have completely changed my opinions on what is being discussed here.

Originally posted by rj martin

There are many ways to make a knife. It is the customer who chooses which knife to buy, and, what factors are important to him/her in making that choice.
If you want a pure custom, totally "hand-made" with no CNC machines used, then buy from makers who make their knives that way.
Click to expand...

Exactly!

Originally posted by RonNewton

Is there anything wrong with using modern equipment? I don't think so.
So where do you draw the line? Is it okay for a maker use a little modern equipment for his knives or is there a law that says he should'nt.
I believe a collector should decide what kind of knife he wants to collect. If the method in which the knife is made is an issue...he should seek out a maker that will make the knife using methods he approves of. It's still a free country. We can all choose the makers and methods by which they supply a product without condemming those who may beleive differently from our own personal viewpoint.
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Once again, exactly!

The maker must choose the way he thinks is best for him/her to make knives and the customer must choose the way he wants his/her knife to be made. There is no wrong way to make a knife; at least not as far as what equipment is used in the making goes. The thing that is important is that the maker be honest in telling the prospective customer what methods are used in the making of his/her knives and if it is important to the customer then he/she must not be afraid to ask.
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery


The thing that is important is that the maker be honest in telling the prospective customer what methods are used in the making of his/her knives and if it is important to the customer then he/she must not be afraid to ask.

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Keith,

You said it all right there.

It doesn't matter the methods used as long as the customer is aware of them before purchasing the knife. If your not sure on the methods used, just ask the maker. Most of the guys I have done business with are very up front about how the knife is produced and they don't consider how they choose to do it superior to anyone elses method. All they know is that it is what works for them.
 
Damn, Keith, you make it tough. How can I argue with you (at least on this thread :) )when I'm in total agreement with your last post. :)

Gonna kick my feet up, get some more popcorn, and watch the screen in case "those" guys names show up :D
 
So basically the maker should be clear in his product marketing on how his knives are made.
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Yup - IMO, that about sums it up.

If you use any tools, and what knifemaker doesn't, then all you are really doing is clarifying the types of tools that you are using.

If a buyer likes the mythology of the "sweat and soul forged (stock removed!??) into the blade", then it will make them happier. I think it is pretty clear that this mythology doesn't guarantee that a knife made that way performs better than the next.

Using tools presumably allows for a higher rate of production and that certainly has a potential benefit - but remember, you still have to find the buyers for that increased production. I can tell you from both the three major knife forums and Ebay that Allen's work and Bob T.'s work have very poor resale (secondary market) value, which is understandable since there are so many of their knives out there. This may not be the case at shows - I have no idea. Allen definitely used laser cut parts in the past, although he says he is no longer using them - not that it ever mattered to me.

Now, taking the stance that you won't repeat a design would be pretty novel and might really differentiate your work from others if you stick with that approach over a substantial period of time.
 
In my old art classes in college, the oil painting folks would rag on the acrylic painting folks. Then, both would rag on the photographers. Each group held their methods and techniques to be the end all.

The wind up is what you produce with your chosen method of creation. It's not the tools or methods - it's the outcome, judged by your peers and the buying public.

Some folks could take CNC machines and create atrocities with them. Others make works of art. It's the work that counts, not the methods or technology.
 
The Art parallel is not really to far off in another respect. The Old Masters would often have many people working for them producing everything from fresh pigments to setting up the layouts and doing studies of specific subjects. Who got the credit? The Master...lol but that was the way it was done and everyone knew it... Even classic art was sometimes done by comittee.

The maker's Process/Honesty/Product are used by the consumer to value the item. If someone is hiding info or lying or is in general a dishonest businessman and buyers find out... Sooolong maker's sales. Keep it aboveboard and most buyers will judge your work accordingly.

-Sam.
 
After talking with some makers, including some who have responded to this thread, my views on this subject have somewhat changed. I used to fill outsourcing parts was sort of like "cheating." In reality, it is just another means of creating the parts to make the final product.

Some makers have guys in their shop that are sort of an apprentice. Or as Kit used to call Mike O, a band saw bitch :D

Anybody can be taught to bandsaw a piece of steel into a profile. It's not that complicated. It's not grinding or finishing a blade. It's bringing a profile to the table to work with that still has to be ground, fit, and finished to complete the overall project. Just because another person rought cuts a profile doesn't mean they had a part in making the knife, IMHO. It is still a raw piece of steel that needs to be ground and formed into a blade.

I think it's funny how people are willing to jump on folks who use machines as "shortcuts" to make the knife, yet don't complain about a maker who makes everything by hand and then ships out the blade for heat treat. Heat-treating is what makes the knife a working knife, and quite possibly the most important aspect of the entire product. It amazes me how many people think that step is ok to farm out to "professionals" yet get mad when a maker uses machines to help keep his tolerances and fit to the absolute highest quality he possibly can. I guess it comes down to honesty and buying what you like.

JR
 
... for this thread. I mean it. It has been *very* enlightening for all, and I hope you as well. Less than a year ago, I had an entirely different opinion. But now I'm quite a bit more open-minded.

And sometimes *I* need to 'think twice--hit 'Enter once'. :) After my attmpt to embellish a point on the first page, I used this point which I regret:
Strangely, not ONE of the aforementioned names were present at the NYC ECCKS, where it is regarded as the premier high-end show in the East. Don't let the tail wag the dog...
Click to expand...
(referring to: Bill Mchenry, Jason Williams, Ralph Selvideo and Steve Olszewski)

This morning I got a letter from Bill McHenry himself. Word gets around! Here was his very concise response to my statement (posted with his permission):

Coop,

With all due respect, Jay and I attended that show , ECCKS, religiously.....until we were drafted by Benchmade to trouble shoot, consult and invent. As I am sure you are aware of, our work on the Axis series has led to a new degree of utility in professional grade folding knives.

BKC, and the extensive, important work for the US Military now consumes ALL of our time. I am sure you understand the need for this at this critical point in American history.

Jason and I continue to create `art knives', but only when the real work is done. We are forced to maintain a low profile because of the current need for sophisticated cutlery for our troops and the LE community. We are no longer taking orders for art work , and we are booked solidly into the future by a select clientle whose patience is truely appreciated. Because of this situation, we feel it would be unfair to `tease' the public.

Our focus has had to shift from creating elegant edged sculpture for the fortunate few, to building tools for the real world. For now, our skills as cutlers are more important than our desire to be artists. With out sounding facetious, McHenry Forge has gone to war.

As for the rest of the `makers Striper cited, we can only speak for ourselves. I`m sorry if I have seemed distressed in tone in this note, but you are not the only one who has noticed our absence from the `scene', perhaps the long hours are getting to me , but we have real work to do, and this is no longer a game for us.

Pray for peace, and give `em Hell,

WJMcHenry

McHenry and Williams Metalworks

Well, I want to apologize right here to Bill Mchenry, Jason Williams, Ralph Selvideo and Steve Olszewski for using their names to emphasize a point. One that has been made clearer by others, without my diversion. My bad. :(

I think we ALL wish these guys well, and Bill made his point perfectly clear. Thanks.

Coop
 
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