Yup, thats basically all that needs to be done. As long as a maker does not go out of his/her way to purposely mislead or lie about the methods he/she uses to make knives then it's fine. If you use particular machines or automated processes to make your knives then let it be known.
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Why buy a handmade that is not really a made by hand?
- Thread starter Chuck Gedraitis Knives
- Start date
Yup, thats basically all that needs to be done. As long as a maker does not go out of his/her way to purposely mislead or lie about the methods he/she uses to make knives then it's fine. If you use particular machines or automated processes to make your knives then let it be known.
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I think Baileys response was the best so far except for the last part. Here's what I think.
As along as a maker is looking to "improve" his product and not his profit from the use of modern technology , then I'm in favor of using whatever technology makes the knife better.
Phillip
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There is nothing wrong in trying to improve on the profit made in selling knives. That is just smart business.
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About 1990-92, I was having a phone conversation with Steve Hoel, who by the way, has a very well equipped machine shop. This subject came up, because of an article in one of the knife rags. His statement was to the effect, that the people b1tching about expensive machinery being used to make knives, are those that can't afford it. I think I agree with him.
Dad!!.........Er, uh, ..I mean KIT!, ARE WE THERE YET?
Dad!!.........Er, uh, ..I mean KIT!, ARE WE THERE YET?
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My only complaint taht I can possibly make about people using methods such as cnc and laser cutting is that I'm jealous that I'm not to that point yet.
And I must admit that the letter from Bill McHenry was very humbling to me, even though I hadn't commented on them. My hat is VERY much off to he and all other makers who are doing their best to help the LEO and armed forces communities right now. Too often you turn on the TV and see protesters(and trust me, I normally use much more colorful language to describe them) crapping all over our service folks(whether military, LEO, fire, etc). It's refreshing to be reminded that there are still people out there who realize that these people are sacrificing time, health and often their lives for us. So my hat is off to all of them, and all the knifemakers that are helping them. I'm sure Mr. McHenry could be making more money by continuing his art work, but he knwos what's important. And as I think of friends I have in service various places(includng the front lines), it heartens me to knwo that people of that caliber are back here in US doing their best to help them.
OK, I'm off my soapbox now, just still a bit riled up, dealing with a guy from Brazil jsut an hour ago who was crapping all over our servicemen
And I must admit that the letter from Bill McHenry was very humbling to me, even though I hadn't commented on them. My hat is VERY much off to he and all other makers who are doing their best to help the LEO and armed forces communities right now. Too often you turn on the TV and see protesters(and trust me, I normally use much more colorful language to describe them) crapping all over our service folks(whether military, LEO, fire, etc). It's refreshing to be reminded that there are still people out there who realize that these people are sacrificing time, health and often their lives for us. So my hat is off to all of them, and all the knifemakers that are helping them. I'm sure Mr. McHenry could be making more money by continuing his art work, but he knwos what's important. And as I think of friends I have in service various places(includng the front lines), it heartens me to knwo that people of that caliber are back here in US doing their best to help them.
OK, I'm off my soapbox now, just still a bit riled up, dealing with a guy from Brazil jsut an hour ago who was crapping all over our servicemen
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Mike (kids),
Dammit, nope, we aren't there yet. Just hold it for a little longer
I'll get you some popcorn...
Props my feet back up and still watching the screen. Those "names" have to come up sooner or later or "I'm gonna be Appalled".
Dammit, nope, we aren't there yet. Just hold it for a little longer
I'll get you some popcorn...
Props my feet back up and still watching the screen. Those "names" have to come up sooner or later or "I'm gonna be Appalled".
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Agreed.
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- 1,276
Okay,let's say maker X,Y and Z are having their frames,liners ect. laser cut and A,B and C are using a template and band saw.I'm assuming :footinmou in the end they have to finish them the same way to meet their specs.So if you are using an old bench drill or radial arm what is the difference and where do you draw the line? For me I'll draw that line and make that decision because it's my money.One of a kinds are great but some of the classic styles would leave me very sad if I was not afforded the opportunity to own and see for myself what makes them that damn good.
Kit: Yes, we have been in this debate more than a few times now. If nothing else, I have learned to summarize the whole debate clearly in just 5 lines. <G>
When I was in the Helicopter industry, I was part of a major shift from hand done drawings to 3D, solid modelled parts. What was interesting is that the amount of design work and effort actually increased, because we had MORE PRECISE CONTROL over the most minute details in the parts. While the assembly time decreased, other aspects of part production, like inspection, increased. We actually worked harder and longer to make batter parts, and, we had to be real careful about managing our data. Ultimately, the results were worth it. We achieved levels of fit and finish that were staggering, and, we improved the quality of our product by a great degree.
I generally spend at least 20-40 hours of computer time on a folder design before I even cut a part. That's what it takes to verify the design, double check the design, write the programs and make the tooling. Now, I'm not getting paid for that time. I'm counting on being paid over time, which assumes that my customers will buy the knife and I'll get to make more than just a few. The benefit for me is that the parts fit together consistently, and, thus I am able to focus on those operations that I am not doing by CNC.
My productivity has NOT quadrupled by the use of CNC and other sophisticated equipment. BUT MY QUALITY AND CONSISTENCY HAS!
And, I can INNOVATE, which keeps me motivated and my customers happy.
I recently invested in tumbling equipment that will enable me to vastly improve my finish on S30V, which is a bear to finish out at the higher Rc levels that I prefer. Although the tumblers require no input from me other than loading/unloading parts (apparently a timesaver), I actually have to hand finish the blades to a finer and more uniform finish than I would if I weren't tumbling them. So, I'm using technology AND working longer and harder because of it. Why?
BECAUSE THE QUALITY OF MY FINISHED PRODUCT IS HIGHER.
And, that's the truth...
When I was in the Helicopter industry, I was part of a major shift from hand done drawings to 3D, solid modelled parts. What was interesting is that the amount of design work and effort actually increased, because we had MORE PRECISE CONTROL over the most minute details in the parts. While the assembly time decreased, other aspects of part production, like inspection, increased. We actually worked harder and longer to make batter parts, and, we had to be real careful about managing our data. Ultimately, the results were worth it. We achieved levels of fit and finish that were staggering, and, we improved the quality of our product by a great degree.
I generally spend at least 20-40 hours of computer time on a folder design before I even cut a part. That's what it takes to verify the design, double check the design, write the programs and make the tooling. Now, I'm not getting paid for that time. I'm counting on being paid over time, which assumes that my customers will buy the knife and I'll get to make more than just a few. The benefit for me is that the parts fit together consistently, and, thus I am able to focus on those operations that I am not doing by CNC.
My productivity has NOT quadrupled by the use of CNC and other sophisticated equipment. BUT MY QUALITY AND CONSISTENCY HAS!
And, I can INNOVATE, which keeps me motivated and my customers happy.
I recently invested in tumbling equipment that will enable me to vastly improve my finish on S30V, which is a bear to finish out at the higher Rc levels that I prefer. Although the tumblers require no input from me other than loading/unloading parts (apparently a timesaver), I actually have to hand finish the blades to a finer and more uniform finish than I would if I weren't tumbling them. So, I'm using technology AND working longer and harder because of it. Why?
BECAUSE THE QUALITY OF MY FINISHED PRODUCT IS HIGHER.
And, that's the truth...
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First of all I am the one that enlighten Bill McHenry about this thread. I feel that if the maker improve his quality of his product with addition of equipment it is only to the consumers benefit. I do agree, that the maker must be up front with the process that is used to produce a blade. What made me laugh about this thread was how some people try and put themselves in the same class as a Bill Mc., Jason W., Steve O. and etc.
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I must say that all of this has been some very interested reading.
I guess there will always be the debate on to what degree of modernization a knife can still be crafted & justly labled as hand-made. I realize that there are many very fine makers who have been turning to a greater degree of mechanization to increase the production of their work to meet the demand. Personally I can't find anything wrong with that as long as quality doesn't deteriorate but I've often wondered myself where the line is drawn between what can be considered hand-made or otherwise.
In my shop, I craft all my knives myself & every piece is worked entirely in my hands from the initial shaping through the hardening/tempering processes & final blade & edge polishing on stones. The only exception being the cutting of saw teeth on a milling machine if that feature is used, after which they are trued with a file. I can find a sense of achievement only when I personally handle my knives through all the stages of its evolvement. For me, this is the only way I feel I can better learn my trade & continue to make improvements.
I know there are many fine knives out there which are being produced using more "production-type" applied methods but I often wonder if these folks ever feel like they're cheating themselves by eliminating the labor-intensive processes which teach the finer, more subtle lessons which could mean the difference between making a good knife & one which is outstanding. Is this the frame of mind what we strive for or am I just too old fashioned in my thoughts? Maybe I can probably make a greater profit if I'd turn to more mechanized techniques which would enable me to produce more blades but at what cost? Sacrificing my own edjucation? Giving up part of the pride for true hands-on craftmanship that makes us what we are & for what? Oh yeh, I guess money is an issue for some people. I think I'd rather just make the best knives I can. HAND-CRAFTED! If I don't make out in profit I know I can at least sleep at night knowing I did the best work I can & am not trying to fool anybody.
I guess there will always be the debate on to what degree of modernization a knife can still be crafted & justly labled as hand-made. I realize that there are many very fine makers who have been turning to a greater degree of mechanization to increase the production of their work to meet the demand. Personally I can't find anything wrong with that as long as quality doesn't deteriorate but I've often wondered myself where the line is drawn between what can be considered hand-made or otherwise.
In my shop, I craft all my knives myself & every piece is worked entirely in my hands from the initial shaping through the hardening/tempering processes & final blade & edge polishing on stones. The only exception being the cutting of saw teeth on a milling machine if that feature is used, after which they are trued with a file. I can find a sense of achievement only when I personally handle my knives through all the stages of its evolvement. For me, this is the only way I feel I can better learn my trade & continue to make improvements.
I know there are many fine knives out there which are being produced using more "production-type" applied methods but I often wonder if these folks ever feel like they're cheating themselves by eliminating the labor-intensive processes which teach the finer, more subtle lessons which could mean the difference between making a good knife & one which is outstanding. Is this the frame of mind what we strive for or am I just too old fashioned in my thoughts? Maybe I can probably make a greater profit if I'd turn to more mechanized techniques which would enable me to produce more blades but at what cost? Sacrificing my own edjucation? Giving up part of the pride for true hands-on craftmanship that makes us what we are & for what? Oh yeh, I guess money is an issue for some people. I think I'd rather just make the best knives I can. HAND-CRAFTED! If I don't make out in profit I know I can at least sleep at night knowing I did the best work I can & am not trying to fool anybody.
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Well Dave, I think that some of the statements you made here are going to raise a few hackles.
Though I think that in some cases added profit is the motivator that leads people to add more automation in the making of their knives, I personally think that for most makers the reason they do this is to improve the precision with which they produce their parts. It is my belief that they do this because they too want to make the best knives they can and maybe they think they have gone as far as they can using handcrafted techniques. I doubt that any of them have trouble sleeping at night, nor should they; they are doing nothing that should cause them to lose sleep. It is likely that there are a few makers that are trying to fool people about the way they are making knives. Heck, I have heard of guys that finish kits and sell them at shows as if they were handmade from the ground up, but I am completely convinced that this lack of integrity is very rare indeed within the knifemaking community.
I'm pretty sure I understand what you were trying to say Dave, but I think it might not have come out quite the way you intended.
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As has already been mentioned in this thread. It's removing the labor-intensive processes, which then save time to do the the finer more subtle lessons, which could mean the difference between making a good knife & one which is outstanding.
I think it works both ways.
You gotta love it! I really hope this was intentional.
(I have no more business in this thread, but it's SOOO much fun!)
Coop
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RJ illustrated a good perspective on this issue. I have a wire EDM in my shop. I use it to profile parts for folders and make tooling. I also cut out inticate guards and even cut guard slots to press fit on the tangs of the knife. In order for ALL of these parts to fit together, a degree of accuracy in simple procedures has to be maintained. I get parts that are accurate to within .0005" on a singel pass. That means I have VERY little room for error when fitting the parts together. A wire EDM will not put holes in the parts. It will not surface material or do any three dimensional work. It is basicly a very accurate automated band saw. Also,I still had to spend countless hours ready tech manuals and learning to draw in CAD programs. Not to mention the amount of time it takes to become profitient in learning to use the machine as an advantage to my business and not a hinderance by cutting incorrect parts. I started out making knives while on watch at sea in the Navy. I would forge blades before we left for whatever mission, and use files and sandpaper to finish them. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt, a file is MUCH easier to use than a piece of CNC equipment. Had I possesed the knowledge of knives at that stage as a knifemaker that I do now, I could have made them look just the same with a file as I do with the grinders and mill and even the EDM. But I couldn't make a living that way and I certainly wouldn't have any fun doing it.
Ask me how I make my knives, and I will tell you. I will even invite you to my shop and show you how to do it. If you want to learn to make knives with a file and the most simple hand tools, bring a lunch, lots of patience and we will sit down and file out a blade. It is not my prefered method. My products are, like RJ said, better and more consistent becasue of all of my equipment and the capability they offer me. I can do so much more for the money on my knives than I could using simple tools.
My MS dagger is a good example. The guard is made up of two mirrored scrolls. I EDM'ed the profile and then spent over a week carving it's leaves and stems. I couldn't have made the knife in a reasonable amount of time (and therefore price)if I had add the time to hand cut the guard with a jewelers saw. The value of the knife is therefor greater because I can do more on the knife in less time. As a customer, what would be more important to you, the time it took in hand work, or more features and embelishments?
Ask me how I make my knives, and I will tell you. I will even invite you to my shop and show you how to do it. If you want to learn to make knives with a file and the most simple hand tools, bring a lunch, lots of patience and we will sit down and file out a blade. It is not my prefered method. My products are, like RJ said, better and more consistent becasue of all of my equipment and the capability they offer me. I can do so much more for the money on my knives than I could using simple tools.
My MS dagger is a good example. The guard is made up of two mirrored scrolls. I EDM'ed the profile and then spent over a week carving it's leaves and stems. I couldn't have made the knife in a reasonable amount of time (and therefore price)if I had add the time to hand cut the guard with a jewelers saw. The value of the knife is therefor greater because I can do more on the knife in less time. As a customer, what would be more important to you, the time it took in hand work, or more features and embelishments?
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Originally posted by tom mayo
I for one am going to get one of those fancy belt sanders as soon as I can save up enough money!!
I admit I'm still a newbie, but I STILL don't understand why you would want to wear a belt that needs sanding? Why not buy one with the finish you like or just buy suspenders in the first place?
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Originally posted by cockroachfarm
I admit I'm still a newbie, but I STILL don't understand why you would want to wear a belt that needs sanding? Why not buy one with the finish you like or just buy suspenders in the first place?
Holger, don't quit your day job. - Joined
- Mar 3, 2003
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Keith,
Your right. I guess I wasn't so good getting my meaning across.
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers guys. I guess I'm just slow to change because I'm so accustomed to the methods I use & like the results I get. My intention wasn't to put anyones methods down I assure you.
I can appreciate the points being made here & I can understand the benefits of incorporating more modern techniques in the trade. Being a trained tool & die maker myself, I can see where this can make sense where both makers & customers can sometimes benefit by crafting knives with precision equipment. You all have good points & this is one thing I am liking about this forum. The edjucation never stops. I am always looking to learn more about my trade & with the feedbackfrom other makers who produce their knives in a different manner I, along with others can benefit by your knowledgable input.
Keep talking. I'm one who is listening.
Your right. I guess I wasn't so good getting my meaning across.
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers guys. I guess I'm just slow to change because I'm so accustomed to the methods I use & like the results I get. My intention wasn't to put anyones methods down I assure you.
I can appreciate the points being made here & I can understand the benefits of incorporating more modern techniques in the trade. Being a trained tool & die maker myself, I can see where this can make sense where both makers & customers can sometimes benefit by crafting knives with precision equipment. You all have good points & this is one thing I am liking about this forum. The edjucation never stops. I am always looking to learn more about my trade & with the feedbackfrom other makers who produce their knives in a different manner I, along with others can benefit by your knowledgable input.
Keep talking. I'm one who is listening.