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Well if I could swing it, I would have a Water Jet Cutter, CNC, and 5 highly trained immigrant workers in my shop..
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Why buy a handmade that is not really a made by hand?
- Thread starter Chuck Gedraitis Knives
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..and on that point it is unanimous. I, too, have learned and changed my opinion over the course of time by these spirited discussions. Excellent point!
Coop
I absolutely agree that in the end the two most important thing are that (1) the maker does whatever he or she feels produces the best knife and (2) the maker is honest and candid about the process so the customer is aware of the process, if it matters at all to the customer who did what and how. At what stage a knife ceases to be "handmade" or "custom" has been discussed before and I leave that to the makers and experts to decide. Personally, as long as I know who did what, and I usually ask, the label is irrelevant for my purposes.
But I have a comment to add. I do think who does what and how is important, and it affects my evaluation of a knife. Sometimes it's a positive thing that a step has been outsourced. What's wrong with Paul Bos heattreating a blade or a Meier damascus? But there is something special about a knife made entirely by one maker, even if they are more efficient methods. That's one reason why I like forged knives so much. Are they better? Not necessarily. Lots of "handmade" things command a premium even though the quality or function may not be superior. Suits, cars, watches, shoes the list is long. In the end, past a certain point of quality and care, it's not really about quality at all. It's personal, or tradition, or art, or status, or snobbery, or exclusivity. Everyone has an opinion. And those opinions can be pretty arbitrary. In japan, if you don't smelt your iron you're shirking. But someone else can do much of the work, do the "handle", polish the blade and that's fine.
Would I pay a premium for one of Wolfe's knives? Sure. But is it because he files by hand or because his blades are just plain incredible? Are they incredible because he does so much himself? Tnink about it and you tell me. I like my Art to be mostly hand done by one artist. Does he have to make his own paper and paints? It's cool if he does, but does it really make a difference?
But when I'm about to shoot a set of rapids I don't care how my boat was built as long as it manoeuvres and holds up and compensates for my dumb ass mistakes to save my life. I'm not taking my vintage Chestnut over the rocks in any event. I think the analogies are fair.
But I have a comment to add. I do think who does what and how is important, and it affects my evaluation of a knife. Sometimes it's a positive thing that a step has been outsourced. What's wrong with Paul Bos heattreating a blade or a Meier damascus? But there is something special about a knife made entirely by one maker, even if they are more efficient methods. That's one reason why I like forged knives so much. Are they better? Not necessarily. Lots of "handmade" things command a premium even though the quality or function may not be superior. Suits, cars, watches, shoes the list is long. In the end, past a certain point of quality and care, it's not really about quality at all. It's personal, or tradition, or art, or status, or snobbery, or exclusivity. Everyone has an opinion. And those opinions can be pretty arbitrary. In japan, if you don't smelt your iron you're shirking. But someone else can do much of the work, do the "handle", polish the blade and that's fine.
Would I pay a premium for one of Wolfe's knives? Sure. But is it because he files by hand or because his blades are just plain incredible? Are they incredible because he does so much himself? Tnink about it and you tell me. I like my Art to be mostly hand done by one artist. Does he have to make his own paper and paints? It's cool if he does, but does it really make a difference?
But when I'm about to shoot a set of rapids I don't care how my boat was built as long as it manoeuvres and holds up and compensates for my dumb ass mistakes to save my life. I'm not taking my vintage Chestnut over the rocks in any event. I think the analogies are fair.
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2002
- Messages
- 1,419
Originally posted by Trace Rinaldi
Well if I could swing it, I would have a Water Jet Cutter, CNC, and 5 highly trained immigrant workers in my shop..
Be careful what you wish for ...
In some parts of the world, that offer will have thousands queueing up for the privilege. Might even bring their own Water Jet Cutter and CNC for a green card ...
Not entirely kidding... Jason.
Les Robertson
BANNED
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- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Just a note to those of you with no experience with military "procurement procedures".
There is a specific format for this. Contrary to what most non-military types think, the military does operate on a budget. Knives, which are mostly frowned upon in all Military Branches, are low on the list.
I have sold knives to all 4 branches of the military. All the "alphabet soup" government types as well as some foreign SOF types. I was even approached by DOD to develop a "particular" knife for them based on one of my designs.
Now with all that being said. I will in no way, shape or form tell the public that I am a "Dealer" to the elite. I have sold knives to "individual" who worked for or in those organizations.
Generally my experience has been when a maker claims they have a "contract". It is in fact a private purchase by either an individual or a small group.
There are exceptions to this, but very few.
The main problem that custom knife makers have is that they cannot (usually) produce enough or at a low enough price to compete competitively with the factories.
If a maker suggests that it is a "secret or clandestine" organization. More than likely they are "full of it". If it truly was a secret organization, the maker would not have the "clearance" to know who they were.
When I was in the Army I had a SF Major contact me looking for some particular knives. At the time I was in Military Intellingence, which means I had the clearance to talk with this individual.
When I went to some of my friends in procurement to set the paperwork in motion. The SF Major dropped the order like a hot rock.
As it turned out, he was a few months from retirement and was starting a knife collection. He was asking makers and other dealers for knives to be sent to him. They would then be evaluated by his "team". At which time they would place an order for "several".
Guys, knives are low priority for the military. Most units (with the exception of SOF, who do receive some knife instruction) receive NO KNIFE TRAINING.
As such, the chances of a unit requesting multiple knives from any maker are slim and none. Again, this is not to say impossible, but highly improbable.
As for the topic at hand. As long as the maker is straight forward as to how the knives are being made. It is up to the individual buyer to make the determination as to which method(s) they prefer.
There is a specific format for this. Contrary to what most non-military types think, the military does operate on a budget. Knives, which are mostly frowned upon in all Military Branches, are low on the list.
I have sold knives to all 4 branches of the military. All the "alphabet soup" government types as well as some foreign SOF types. I was even approached by DOD to develop a "particular" knife for them based on one of my designs.
Now with all that being said. I will in no way, shape or form tell the public that I am a "Dealer" to the elite. I have sold knives to "individual" who worked for or in those organizations.
Generally my experience has been when a maker claims they have a "contract". It is in fact a private purchase by either an individual or a small group.
There are exceptions to this, but very few.
The main problem that custom knife makers have is that they cannot (usually) produce enough or at a low enough price to compete competitively with the factories.
If a maker suggests that it is a "secret or clandestine" organization. More than likely they are "full of it". If it truly was a secret organization, the maker would not have the "clearance" to know who they were.
When I was in the Army I had a SF Major contact me looking for some particular knives. At the time I was in Military Intellingence, which means I had the clearance to talk with this individual.
When I went to some of my friends in procurement to set the paperwork in motion. The SF Major dropped the order like a hot rock.
As it turned out, he was a few months from retirement and was starting a knife collection. He was asking makers and other dealers for knives to be sent to him. They would then be evaluated by his "team". At which time they would place an order for "several".
Guys, knives are low priority for the military. Most units (with the exception of SOF, who do receive some knife instruction) receive NO KNIFE TRAINING.
As such, the chances of a unit requesting multiple knives from any maker are slim and none. Again, this is not to say impossible, but highly improbable.
As for the topic at hand. As long as the maker is straight forward as to how the knives are being made. It is up to the individual buyer to make the determination as to which method(s) they prefer.
knightsteel
Sword Smith
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2002
- Messages
- 143
Sure am enjoying the popcorn. I am having a beer with mine, and doing my part to support international diplomacy by making it a Foster's Lager.
I have heard quite a bit of exactly the kind of innuendo as presented by SammyB. Fairly often it has been about me! Honestly I think it is a little sick, no matter who it is about. If you have something to say then say it. If you can't say it openly then it is better to just stay quiet. If someone is running a scam and you know about it then you have an obligation to speak up. If it is only that so-and-so told so-and-so then...
By presenting something in this way "it" looks dirty. "It" is inferred as GUILTY since "it" can't really be said. The "Dirty Secret" gossip is a fantastic method for perpetuating (and magnifying) foul rumors.
As an example of how this works lets look at a rumor that X piece was secretly made by an unknown assistant. For over 20 years I have openly run my forge as a multi-man shop. I set the artistic flavor, control the metallurgy and HT, and do ALL the forging, with very few exceptions. If, in the rare case, either of the 2 journeymen now with me, Todd Barnhardt (for 14yrs.) and Anthony Telesco (for 6 yrs.), forge out the blade then they must mark it with their personal logo.
It seems very difficult to pigeonhole the various ways we as a group approach our art. I usually don't refer to my pieces as custom or handmade. Instead we simply tell how it is made and have different trademarks for each of various approaches.
If the blade is hand forged in a charcoal fire then it can get the Angel Sword trademark. If the blade is made via stock removal, CNC machining, and/or hand grinding/polishing, then it gets a Bright Knight trademark. If the blade is wootz then it gets the Avatar trademark.
I also have some pre-made blades purchased through one of the suppliers, such as K&G, that I multiwave cryo process, reshape a little, mount grips, maybe add some filework, just give it some flavor. These are marked Buccaneer. At renfairs we have flyers and posters explaining the various trademarks. But with a little exaggeration as always happens with gossip the 440C Buccaneer could easily become a fake custom hand forged Angel Sword fully made in Taiwan.
I like it where all the information is out in front for the potential client to see. I have long term repeat customers that swear by the BK line. Others would have nothing but AS. The Avatar line is now my favorite. Buccaneer lets folks buy something inexpensive that they can use and then trade-in later on. ( http://www.angelsword.com/guaranty.html )
Based on this, all may decide for themselves which criteria of "handmade" or "custom" they wish to apply.
Time for more popcorn.
Daniel
- Joined
- Jan 17, 1999
- Messages
- 539
Daniel,
Not recognizing you or your work, I assure you it has not been your name that crops up. I don't follow ren fairs or repro swords. I could care less if you and fifteen faries worked by the light of the moon. As long as you are honest in your methods and advertising you are fine by me.
The brownbag remark is not about a specific individual but is a sh**ty business practice and dishonest in the main. Of course most shows and the guild don't really crack down on it to the detriment of the paying vendors. Complaints are however filed and become known and documented. Not a dirty secret.
Stating that people do indeed discuss this type of thing may or may not fit your definition of sick. IIGAS I would say - It is simply a fact. I have sat at shows and dinners and listened to these discussions of people and methods. I don't have anything to add and I don't activly redistribute their names and I am staying quiet. If I found out it was true I would name a name. This is not a "dirty secret" either.
-Sam
Not recognizing you or your work, I assure you it has not been your name that crops up. I don't follow ren fairs or repro swords. I could care less if you and fifteen faries worked by the light of the moon. As long as you are honest in your methods and advertising you are fine by me.
The brownbag remark is not about a specific individual but is a sh**ty business practice and dishonest in the main. Of course most shows and the guild don't really crack down on it to the detriment of the paying vendors. Complaints are however filed and become known and documented. Not a dirty secret.
Stating that people do indeed discuss this type of thing may or may not fit your definition of sick. IIGAS I would say - It is simply a fact. I have sat at shows and dinners and listened to these discussions of people and methods. I don't have anything to add and I don't activly redistribute their names and I am staying quiet. If I found out it was true I would name a name. This is not a "dirty secret" either.
-Sam
knightsteel
Sword Smith
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2002
- Messages
- 143
Sam,
I'm not into the fairie thing, but I did like Trace Rinaldi's idea of 5 highly skilled immigrant workers in my shop. And I think Tai Goo heads up the moonlight forge circle.
Sorry to put you on the spot and step on your toes. :footinmou Please come by Scarborough Fair just south of Dallas any of the next 8 weekends and I will buy you a beer.
*******************
Calling my work repro swords sends a shiver up my spine. :barf:
Daniel
I'm not into the fairie thing, but I did like Trace Rinaldi's idea of 5 highly skilled immigrant workers in my shop. And I think Tai Goo heads up the moonlight forge circle.
Sorry to put you on the spot and step on your toes. :footinmou Please come by Scarborough Fair just south of Dallas any of the next 8 weekends and I will buy you a beer.
*******************
Calling my work repro swords sends a shiver up my spine. :barf:
Daniel
- Joined
- Jun 25, 2001
- Messages
- 8,474
OK my 2 cents
honesty so the customer can make a sound decision on what he wants
and is buying, first and for most.
hand made? do we dig our own ore or buy the steel.
I'm making a line of folders now that I can have laser cut or not I can make
one for a customer laser cut if he wants it that way or cut it out with a band saw,
or start by scratch what ever the customer wants is my goal
the jest of the whole thing is IMHO there are way to many view points on the
subject and many more customers,
than that,
to ever come to a conclusion,,,,
you can have it your way it's that simple,
the customer is the guy that's paying the bill. build it the way
he wants it if you can't, tell him.
you both will be much happier in the end.
if you like anything a maker makes because he's who he is Great Buy it
you're the man..and it's your money.
I don't put anybody's knife down or place myself at any level of greatness
may God strike me down if I ever do.
I learn as I go, tell what I can and if you want my honest
opinion and I can help, I will.
i will tell you I don't grow my own Mastodon Ivory, and I buy my acid to etch with
I am a custom knife maker making hand made knives.
I will say I have not yet had anything Laser cut but I will when it's time to do so
I like to eat too.
To tell you the truth, I think if you get down to it,, a true fully Hand made custom
Knife starts with a stick
this is so you can dig some up Iron Ore to start it with or
that sharp rock our ancestors used now that's a knarf.
besure you build the forge from the Ore then the trees to make your coke for the forge.
you see where we are
is at the middle road of who wants what
the quote is
you can make some of the people happy some of the time
and you can make some of the people happy all of the time of the time
but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time
I too had different thoughts on the subject some time ago..
how far backwards do we have to go to make
true hand made knives food for thought a custom car ?
do u hire a Black smith to start on it or a stone wheel maker ?
my 2 cents
you guys got any more pop corn.
honesty so the customer can make a sound decision on what he wants
and is buying, first and for most.
hand made? do we dig our own ore or buy the steel.
I'm making a line of folders now that I can have laser cut or not I can make
one for a customer laser cut if he wants it that way or cut it out with a band saw,
or start by scratch what ever the customer wants is my goal
the jest of the whole thing is IMHO there are way to many view points on the
subject and many more customers,
than that,
to ever come to a conclusion,,,,
you can have it your way it's that simple,
the customer is the guy that's paying the bill. build it the way
he wants it if you can't, tell him.
you both will be much happier in the end.
if you like anything a maker makes because he's who he is Great Buy it
you're the man..and it's your money.
I don't put anybody's knife down or place myself at any level of greatness
may God strike me down if I ever do.
I learn as I go, tell what I can and if you want my honest
opinion and I can help, I will.
i will tell you I don't grow my own Mastodon Ivory, and I buy my acid to etch with
I am a custom knife maker making hand made knives.
I will say I have not yet had anything Laser cut but I will when it's time to do so
I like to eat too.
To tell you the truth, I think if you get down to it,, a true fully Hand made custom
Knife starts with a stick
this is so you can dig some up Iron Ore to start it with or
that sharp rock our ancestors used now that's a knarf.
besure you build the forge from the Ore then the trees to make your coke for the forge.
you see where we are
is at the middle road of who wants what
the quote is
you can make some of the people happy some of the time
and you can make some of the people happy all of the time of the time
but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time
I too had different thoughts on the subject some time ago..
how far backwards do we have to go to make
true hand made knives food for thought a custom car ?
do u hire a Black smith to start on it or a stone wheel maker ?
my 2 cents
you guys got any more pop corn.
- Joined
- Feb 15, 1999
- Messages
- 11,566
WOW!!! Dan You are long winded, but true.
Just to amplify Les Robertson's comments. I've been a supply officer in the Army before. There are two ways units (not individuals) can get things through the supply system. The first is to submit it as Les has explained, where, once accepted by DOD, it gets a National Stock Number. If the item is unrestricted, units can requst it, with some exceptions. The other is through "Local Purchase" where the local supply support activity takes your request, and a local "contracting officer" finds the item on the local market, and pays for it with local funds. This last way should not be considered an "issue" item since it has no national stock number.
Bruce Woodbury
Bruce Woodbury
. I think I'll be waiting for QUITE the long Canadian winter on that one...eh
- Joined
- May 9, 2000
- Messages
- 29,205
I have never seen the same knife twice from Dellana, Daniel Winkler, Michael Walker, Dr. James Lucie, or for that matter, Ron Newton. Some of these makers make Bowies, but they don't have a set model that they do over and over. Dellana makes exquisite folders and I have never seen two even close to being the same. Dr. Lucie makes Scagel style knives, but every one I have ever seen has been different. If you gave me enough time I am sure I could name quite a few more. Makers like Lloyd Hale and Buster Warenski come to mind as well.
Do these makers have styles that work in, yes. Do they have set patterns, like say a Ralph Madd Maxx, a Carson Model 4 or a Terzuola ATCF? If so, I have never seen them.
Do these makers have styles that work in, yes. Do they have set patterns, like say a Ralph Madd Maxx, a Carson Model 4 or a Terzuola ATCF? If so, I have never seen them.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 5,868
Good read folks!! My personal opinion is that it should be made known if you have your blades cut for you. I am not saying that its a bad thing, but I would never have guessed that so many makers practice these techniques. Does this put the CRK issue to rest and make them customs now??
- Joined
- Dec 2, 1999
- Messages
- 12,249
What TheBadGuy said!
This is the "A sebenza is too expensive because it's made by machine debate" that has been going on for a long time.
It's interesting to me that it seems that more people now agree that using certain production steps can increase quality, keep costs down and benefit both the maker and buyer.
This is the "A sebenza is too expensive because it's made by machine debate" that has been going on for a long time.
It's interesting to me that it seems that more people now agree that using certain production steps can increase quality, keep costs down and benefit both the maker and buyer.
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Messages
- 1,217
Dellana,and Michael Walker have made more than one copy of the same pattern. Della's "Comet", and Walker's folders are repeated patterns (I actually asked for quotes on "similar" knives). The bowies and Scagels are "reproductions" of a successful pattern anyway. Dellana and Walker produce very few knives that make to dealers which is why you haven't seen them repeated. The reference was to every Knife being a unique design. Ron Newton also produces the "Ovation" model folder, a repeated pattern (I could find at least 4 of those).So, keep on thinkin' Keith. Sorry 'bout yer Maple leafs, eh....
Les Robertson
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 10, 1998
- Messages
- 3,565
Hi Bad Guy,
Actually, the CRK Knife issue was put to bed years ago. Right after the Sebenza won the award at the Blade Show for the "Best Manufactured Knife of The Year". This was voted on by all the other factories.
Custom makers, dealers and collectors have not vote for the knife that wins this award. Why? Because it is an Factory Knife Industry Award.
So it's fair that only factory reps get to vote for this award.
Actually, the CRK Knife issue was put to bed years ago. Right after the Sebenza won the award at the Blade Show for the "Best Manufactured Knife of The Year". This was voted on by all the other factories.
Custom makers, dealers and collectors have not vote for the knife that wins this award. Why? Because it is an Factory Knife Industry Award.
So it's fair that only factory reps get to vote for this award.
- Joined
- Jul 24, 2002
- Messages
- 5,868
Les Robertson, The only reason I said that about CRK, is it's a custom knife maker, using CNC machines and other high tech tools. I think there are some custom makers out there that follow a similar way of making there wears yet are able to keep up there high prices b/c they are not considered manufactured knives. But I guess if folks are willing to spend the money and are happy with the knives, so be it.