Why do people knock 440C so readily???

When 440C was popular, a lot of poor quality knives were labeled 440 to imply the steel was similar to 440C.

Some unscroupelous manufacturers mislabeled their blades or didn't care about proper heat treatment.

I guess some people associate 440C with those knives.

I own and use 440C and Aus8 folders and I'm still happy with both steels.
 
I don't have a problem with 440C, my issue is mostly price point. A $20 production folder in 440C is wonderful, but at $80 it's not great.
 
elkins45 said:
If Spyderco made two identical versions of the Military, one with S30V and one with 440C, but priced the $440C model at 75%, which one do you think would sell more?
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Which would sell more to knife geek Spyderco buyers?

The S30V version.

Which would sell more to WalMart Spyderco buyers?

The 440C.
 
I don't think many people 'knock' 440C, they just see it for what it is. As Gator said, it doesn't have a really high attainable/usable hardness, corrosion resistance isn't spectacular, wear resistance either, and toughness also falls well below other choices offered in the same price range. Yes, it's good enough for cutting tasks, but what steels aren't? Being recognized as good enough isn't the same as knocking. People just as often talk about AUS8 being their lower limit, or how 12C27 doesn't hold an edge very long, or scoffing at 420HC for whatever the price. 1095 works well, but I'm going to take 3V instead if given the choice. There aren't any 'bad' alloys, but there are better ones for certain criteria. Other than price, you can often identify a better alloy in every other criteria.
 
Tostig said:
I can sum it up by saying there are some very famous and in demand makers who have been using 440C as part of their line-up for decades.
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I also can sum up that in 19th century the most famous and in demand makers used steels far worse than 440C and 1095, simply because it was the best, and going back in time, the best knifemakers in stone age used flintstone :)
So, at any given time sufficient number of people like you would stop any progress dead on its tracks using exactly the same argument(s).

BTW, when referring to "famous" and in "demand" makers, somehow nobody mentions that many of those makers dropped 440C in favor of more modern steels.

Tostig said:
That says far more to me than forum fanboyism ever will. :)
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As opposed to maker fanboyism :)
 
a few thoughts on 440c. i'm not sure a higher polish can be done on the newer stainless alloys. i know that a majority of collector --art knives were made of the 440 years back . at this time i'm not sure what the custom guys like for a true mirror finish. maybe 440 has been surpassed for a nonused art knife. another thought some of the old carbon steels have been tweaked by custom guys to achive super steel results. maybe this is possible with 440. i do know that vg10, s30. zdp189, & a bunch of others have left 440 in the barn as far as performance goes. even aus8 which is a fairly pedestrian alloy outcuts 440.dennis
 
In my experience the 440c is a good steel for cutting. I've got a small pushdagger from Benchmade I believe its model 175 in 440c. For what it is I don't need anything more from that knife. Its a bit to brittle for my tastes though, at least on the 175.
 
Two of my favorite steels are 440C and CPM-M4. Now keep in mind that this is a strictly subjective point of view, but for me, both of these steels take a fine edge that seems almost 'toothy', if that makes any sense. I prefer CPM-M4, but I will never turn my nose up at properly treated 440C from a reputable manufacturer.
 
Are all 440C blades sub zero stabilised? (I hope I used the proper term!).

I read that doing this process costs as much as the heat treat does.

Is there an appreciable difference between 440C that has had this process done to it verses one that hasn't?
 
I have a number of older kitchen and pocket knives in 440C made by Gerber - quite some time ago. I have used them extensively. The Gerbers are good, but they do not hold an edge as long in the kitchen or in general use in pocket knives as 154cm or VG10. Gerber knives in high speed steel are another story - they take and hold a great edge forever.
Current heat treatment of 440C, if better quality, involves cryo and yields a blade that holds an edge almost as long as the more modern steels, like 154 cm. My newer knives in 154 cm and VG10 are much better at keeping an edge than these older Gerbers in 440C. The newer 440C knife blades should be much better if given optimal heat treatment.
 
Gator97 said:
That's super vague. Great steel... For what? And great compared to what? Carbon steels? How about you compare it to stainless steels? How about comparing it to CPM S110V, or S30V, or ZDp-189, let's say for light cutting... There's nothing great about 440C, it's performance simply sucks compared to those. So, what is the reason I'd have to pick 440C over one of those? Because it was great in 1970?

I disagree about it being so great today, it was great in 70s, not in 2010.
There are far better choices out there today. I see absolutely no reason to cling onto old alloys, they do belong in budget knives, but not in high end.
That has nothing to do with elitism, but simple fact that outdated materials and technologies cost less.
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Who said we were only discussing "high end" knives? And what qualifies for high end? Your high end might differ with mine.

Especially when you factor in material costs, I think 440C is an excellent steel. It's not the hardest, it may not hold and edge the longest, and it's not the most stainless steel ever, but if you took every aspect of a knife steel (cost, hardening ability, stain/rust resistance, grinding/production workability, edge retention, ease of sharpening, etc.), scored each one of them, and then combined and averaged the score, I bet 440C would grab a place near the top of the pack. It's one of the best *generalist* steels available, even today.

The "super steels" you list are in fact great steels. I have a number of S30V knives, and a sweet little ZDP-189 knife. No S110V, yet, but we'll see. However, none of them are *always* better than 440C. For example, if I were buying a fixed blade knife with a blade longer than 5" (that isn't a kitchen knife), I'd take 440C over S30V or ZDP-189.
 
LawyerSam said:
How does the 8CR13mov compare to 440?
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It is much worse than 440C from reputable company. I SUPPOSE it is less pure, has less carbon and most importantly is undergoing much worse HT than 440C.
The easiest to compare - BM vex, and any BM made from 440c.
 
topher said:
For example, if I were buying a fixed blade knife with a blade longer than 5" (that isn't a kitchen knife), I'd take 440C over S30V or ZDP-189.
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I would not. S30V has higher impact toughness & wear resistance, at a higher hardness, than 440C. There are steels I like more than S30V, 440C isn't one of them.
 
I carry knives with 440C blades from Boker and Benchmade. I like them a lot but they are both inexpensive knives (under $100). I do have some custom slip joints with 440C blades as well. The slip joints don't get used all that hard so no worries. I don't have any problems with 440C depending on price. If I'm paying $150 or more for a production knife, I want something better than 440C.
 
Gator97 said:
... and going back in time, the best knifemakers in stone age used flintstone :) ...
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I understand your general remark about progress, but I don’t understand people who (figuratively) knock flint stone. It’s not susceptible to corrosion, has great edge retention and when micro chipping occurs, it’s self sharpening. The actual edge of correctly prepared flint stone is actual sharper (much thinner) than a steel edge.
 
Question, and I'm guilty of doing it do, but do we need to preface our steel discussion with proper heat treat, good heat treat, (assuming proper heat treat of course), etc. Is there any steel that would be a good blade material that wasn't heat treated properly? I mean we need to remember who were writing these post for, all of us should know any steel not heat treated properly is practically worthless as a blade steel, right?

I'm just saying this is something I've noticed a lot lately here and again I'm guilty too, but just look at this thread hell it is every other post. I'm done, I'm not doing it anymore and by the way I have a Boker SubCom TI in 440C and it does just fine, so I'm assuming it was heat treated properly. Dang, I did it again.
 
Well, I personally like to buy something that's not in 440 before I got with 440. I don't really look down on 440 or anything, I just like to try out new steels, and 440 is about as "new" as dirt in that regard. I remember once I took an AUS8 knife over one in 440 just beacuse I wanted to see what AUS8 was like, and there's virtually no real difference between the two.

So I think a lot of people like me just want to try out "exotic" steels.

I'm trying to find a knife that's either in D2 or M4 so I can try one of those out.
 
hardheart said:
I would not. S30V has higher impact toughness & wear resistance, at a higher hardness, than 440C. There are steels I like more than S30V, 440C isn't one of them.
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The adds I see show that S30V is only 45% better than 440C. And I'm sure it costs a ton. I sharpen my knives. If I can get 1,000 solid cuts with 440C, and it costs less, I'll take it. I'll sharpen my knive before the 1,000 cuts anyway, so who needs 1,450.

I bet the cost of S30V is far more than the 45% improvement over 440C.

440C is good stuff.
 
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