Why do people knock 440C so readily???

[Gator97]

Ya' know, since square one, all you've done is ramble on and on about how much you know, and science, and BLAH, BLAH, BLAH.

I C. And that irritated simple Simon type guy are or something else?

BTW, for all the "ramble" in my posts I never stated I know more than any of the forum members. The only thing I said, I look at steel compositions a lot, because I work on steel chart.
So, before getting over-agitated, I suggest you go back read, but this time slower and more carefully.

I'll take the opinions of someone with calloused hands who has worked IN REALITY with steel for a few decades long before I would from a 'scientist'...or ultra-smug steel snob.

Right. And you suppose I sharpen my knives in a dream world? And how exactly someones "calloused hands" make 440C or whatever else steel perform any better than it does? Cardboard is a cardboard, steel is a steel. At any rate, you are free to listen whomever you want.

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

So what difference does sub zero business (whatever it's called) do to 440C?

I'm thinking about wanting an Entrek Forester, a scandi grind blade that's had the full works done to it.

Good, bad, indifferent?

I don't fancy cutting cardboard with it but only fish, wood and meat.

If 440C is so friggin bad how come Helle and other Scandinavian manufacturers successfully use 12....whatever it's called?

 

[hardheart]

12C27 is tough, probably 3 or 4 times as tough as 440C in most knife applications. It is also easy to blank and sharpen, reducing costs to manufacture and effort for end users.

 

[JParanee]

Because 440 c is junky stainless steel in fact all stainless steel sucks

 

[GoodGuy]

In my experience there's too much variability in its composition which leads to inconsistency in the performance of knife blades manufactured from it. I suspect that inconsistency spurs some users to "knock" it.

 

[SkinnyJoe]

Never understood it either. Given a proper heat treat, 440C is a perfectly good steel.

Are there steels that are perfectly good, even when the heat treat is crappy?

 

[Guyon]

Do they? Some of my favorite knives are in 440C.

 

[J.Davey]

I C. And that irritated simple Simon type guy are or something else?

BTW, for all the "ramble" in my posts I never stated I know more than any of the forum members. The only thing I said, I look at steel compositions a lot, because I work on steel chart.
So, before getting over-agitated, I suggest you go back read, but this time slower and more carefully.


Right. And you suppose I sharpen my knives in a dream world? And how exactly someones "calloused hands" make 440C or whatever else steel perform any better than it does? Cardboard is a cardboard, steel is a steel. At any rate, you are free to listen whomever you want.

Gator, I apologize for my being snippy. It was out of line. I just felt that the use of words like 'ignorant' were unnecessary. In my original post, I posed a question, that is all. I personally like 440C on knives by reputable makers (BM, Entrek, Boker to name a couple). It holds a great edge, is plenty corrosion resistant, and is easier to put a spectacular edge on than many other stainless steels. I never stated it was better than anything else, just that I've read quite a bit over the last few years that it's 'cheap', or 'low grade'. I disagree. I wanted to read the opinions of others, not see people being called uneducated, ignorant, or 'Simple Simon'.

(oh yeah, my actual favorite stainless is VG10)

 

[J.Davey]

In my experience there's too much variability in its composition which leads to inconsistency in the performance of knife blades manufactured from it. I suspect that inconsistency spurs some users to "knock" it.

I think Carpenter Steels has done away with that inconsistency...and re-named it.

 

[knarfeng]

In my experience there's too much variability in its composition which leads to inconsistency in the performance of knife blades manufactured from it. I suspect that inconsistency spurs some users to "knock" it.

The inconsistency comes from knives made overseas that are labeled as "440C" when, in fact, they are not.

American made 440C is not inconsistent in composition.

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

So how does the sub zero effect 440C?

Does it really make it better than 440C that hasn't gone through this process?

 

[Gator97]

Gator, I apologize for my being snippy. It was out of line. I just felt that the use of words like 'ignorant' were unnecessary.

My bad, although to be honest, I felt I was defending knife users, by saying more than 1% can appreciate better steel, or it's not as bad as 99% not being able to utilize advantages of a good steel.

I wanted to read the opinions of others, not see people being called uneducated, ignorant, or 'Simple Simon'.

Well, may be I didn't express my opinion clearly enough, but I do believe more that 1% of knife users and enthusiasts are smart and experienced enough to take the advantage of the better alloy.

 

[J.Davey]

So how does the sub zero effect 440C?

Does it really make it better than 440C that hasn't gone through this process?

From what I know, the majority of steels benefit from sub-zero quenching. Something to do with it's effects on the molecular structure. I'm sure someone else will chime in that actually knows the details.


Gator, I'm glad we got this misunderstanding cleared up. I hate arguing with people, especially about personal opinions.:thumbup:

 

[GoodGuy]

In my experience there's too much variability in its composition which leads to inconsistency in the performance of knife blades manufactured from it. I suspect that inconsistency spurs some users to "knock" it.

The inconsistency comes from knives made overseas that are labeled as "440C" when, in fact, they are not.

American made 440C is not inconsistent in composition.

To clarify... I'm convinced the recipe for the alloy permits a manufacturer (no matter who the maker is or where the alloy is produced) too much lattitude in the steel's production. Carbon content, for example, can vary 20% or more from batch to batch without disqualifying the alloy from being 440C. That variability creates the inconsistency which, in turn, can frustrate knife users.

 

[knarfeng]

So how does the sub zero effect 440C?

Does it really make it better than 440C that hasn't gone through this process?

Depends on what you're using it for.

For bearings, a common usage for this alloy, no.

For cutlery, I think so.
Latrobe offers an optional heat treat schedule that includes a sub-zero quench in its Tech Data Sheet for this alloy. If cryo were bogus, they'd leave the user on his own.

 

[knarfeng]

Personally, I have no problems buying an American-made knife that has a 440C blade. The steel performs quite well for a multitude of uses, is reasonably corrosion resistant, and, with the aid of ceramic stones, is easy to sharpen. (Sharpening 440C on a Washita stone used to suck.)

 

[Hitzy]

My bad, although to be honest, I felt I was defending knife users, by saying more than 1% can appreciate better steel, or it's not as bad as 99% not being able to utilize advantages of a good steel.


Well, may be I didn't express my opinion clearly enough, but I do believe more that 1% of knife users and enthusiasts are smart and experienced enough to take the advantage of the better alloy.

Your application is pretty specific....you need a thin sharp blade for light/medium duty cutting, something where the newer super steels can really shine.
Would you want the same steel and blade shape in a throwing knife, or a hunting knife used to quarter a moose, or to baton a log for a campfire?
Not likely, but for a couple of reasons....cost being the first, as most ordinary folks would be a little gunshy to try and snap bones or seperate ribs with a $500+ knife, or use the same to chop/baton a large piece of wood in half.
Second being the high hardness of some of these new alloys. Can they take prying, hammering, droping, etc without chipping, cracking or breaking?
I think there has to be comprimise somewhere, when price/performance/and application all play a roll. And I don't think you can say (yet, but maybe soon) that there is a super steel out there that will get an A+ in all the possible uses we have for knives.
We are definately seeing a major revolution in knife steel going on right now, and it's cool to be a part of it. I've been on a mission to buy and try as many different steels as I can and it's been a lot of fun so far.
And scalpels are still made from pretty low grade carbon and SS AFAIK, and they perform the most important roll a knife can play I think

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

So how about taking famous or not...knife makers who use 440C in their blades and talking about them, the plus points and failings....

I'll start with one that I'm interested in, Entrek...good?..

How about Randall, or Boker?

Are these good working outdoor blades?

Wood, meat, rain and high humidity tests...not cardboard cutting tests.

 

[Yorkshire Boy]

Personally, I have no problems buying an American-made knife that has a 440C blade. The steel performs quite well for a multitude of uses, is reasonably corrosion resistant, and, with the aid of ceramic stones, is easy to sharpen. (Sharpening 440C on a Washita stone used to suck.)

Been a total newb what ceramic stones would you get for a 440C knife?

 

[J.Davey]

So how about taking famous or not...knife makers who use 440C in their blades and talking about them, the plus points and failings....

I'll start with one that I'm interested in, Entrek...good?

I have personally never owned one (but will when I can spare the cha-ching), but have read nothing but praise for Entrek knives. Keep in mind that they are pretty much handmade and VERY reasonably priced. The owner, Ray Ennis, has been making knives for a looooong time, and knows what he's doing when it comes to 440C!:thumbup: