Why do you baton?

Mongrel made a point that I want to elaborate on.
I read multiple times in this thread about how axes (I'm including hatchets in the "axe" description) are more dangerous because you have to hold the wood while swinging at it. Not to sound condescending, but if you are doing this, you don't know how to use an axe.
There's three ways to safely split with an axe.
1.) The one Mongrel described. Put the axe head against the top of the log, lift both and bring both down together to start the cut. Once the axe head is embedded, you can lift both together with just the pressure on the axe head and get a good, two-handed swing in.
2.) A variation on the above, where you hold the axe head on the side of the log, bring both down, ad give a little twist as the axe head embeds itself. Often with small branches you can split them with 2 or 3, sometimes as few as 1 swing -- much faster than batoning a knife.
3.) The third is to put the log on the ground, put the axe head on top of it, either starting it like in example 1, or resting it there, holding the log vertical with the pressure, and. . .here is come. . .da, da, da. . .BATON it. You baton it by striking the poll with a WOODEN baton (if an axe man sees you batoning the poll with another axe or hammer, he'll baton you). Once the head is embedded, finish the split as in example 1. Or, if using an all-steel axe like an Estwing or Craftsman, you could baton it all the way through striking the handle.

BTW, you can also baton an axe to make notches, or to make more precise splits to get the most planking from as log as possible.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
3.) The third is to put the log on the ground, put the axe head on top of it, either starting it like in example 1, or resting it there, holding the log vertical with the pressure, and. . .here is come. . .da, da, da. . .BATON it.
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Is there an echo in here? :D
 
Ok, so now we’re batoning axes, …It’s still batoning.

The bottom line is that knowing how to use a baton is a useful skill.
 
Big Mike said:
Ok, so now we’re batoning axes, …It’s still batoning.

The bottom line is that knowing how to use a baton is a useful skill.
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You are absolutely right...however, the use of the word 'baton' is relatively new. Traditionally a 'baton' was something used to direct a band or twirled by a young lady in front of a marching band. What is known as batoning in the knife world I simply called "using a stick as a hammer to split a piece of wood".

I still find it somewhat sad that we talk of these things as 'skills' as if you need to attend a course to be taught how to separate a piece of wood from itself and that a piece of wood that is wet on the outside will be dry on the inside.

I mean no haughtiness in this at all, but what is being described is something I and many others have done and known since we were children. These 'skills' were common among 'men' years ago before we started emasculating our children and keeping them out of the woods and the garage and buying them video games. The pain is in the realization that much of this stuff *has* been relagated to the "wilderness school" when it used to be taught in the back yard. Nostalgia can be a bitch. :(

Honestly-it's all good. No need to turn it into a pissing match. It's really just something to have a conversation about so that we all can learn.

I thought that it was interesting that the baton 'advocates' didn't point out one big advantage of using a long blade to baton vs. using an axe or hatchet. While the axe or hatchet may be superior for splitting, it becomes problematic once the head has sunk below the top of the log or limb when splitting larger stuff. It is almost a given that when using an axe you *will* need some type of wedge-wood or steel-to open the log up as you go along. By using the long blade you keep the tool exposed so that you can continue to 'baton' (gee-that wasn't so hard after all :D) the blade all the way through (I learned this years ago using a machete). One issue to watch out for that I have found while batoning is if you hit a hard knot. It can cause the blade to bend and if severe enough, I imagine break it.
 
okay, a few more things- first baton is a staff or truncheon used for hitting people- that's the original sense of the word in english. The word is actually french and means stick or staff.

Second, I find batoning no more silly than using a wooden maul on a chisel to do fine cuts for a post and beam building. I find batoning a lot LESS silly than using a knife as a prybar yet a large percentage of knives are made with this use in mind!

Third- no one here seems to argue that hitting a blade on wood really hard- as in chopping- is stupid, yet many people feel that hitting the spine with a piece of wood is. Why is this? I could argue reaosnable that it makes *more* sense- especially in a differentially treated blade.

Obviously this isn't some OneTrue way to cut wood. I split firewood at home with a splitting maul. That doesn't mean I should carry said 10 pound device around the woods.

I don't always make bonfires. If I want a small fire, relatively smokeless, for cooking- i want piee no longer than about a foot, and split so they burn hot and fast and don't heavily smoke for hours. I can do that with a hawk, but I can do it with a good blade, too. Mostly I use a saw for the cutting to length, but what if the saw breaks? what if my hawk decides to go walkabout without me?

The OP asked a reasonable question, which I feel has been reasonably answered. It's been pointed out that knives can be made to handle the job, that there are reasonable uses, and that there are other tools than knives in existence.

I won't give up on baton work simply because someone feels it's an abuse of a knife- but I'd like to point out that rarely outside of Extreme PCness is using a tool for something it's been designed to do considered actually wrong.

I'll uise scott as an example- we go about it in fairly opposite ways, yet we both definitely consider batoning as a functional part of our knives working lives. (so to several other makers, I just like using scott because we have different solutions to the design problem)
 
Well, I had to go out and try it. Does it work, yes. Is it safer this way, without a doubt I would have to say yes. Is it something I will ever do out in the bush. I am not sure. I am still trying to think of a time when I could not find something dry to start a fire. Even down at my farm-ranch in Central America during the rainy season, I way always able to find something dry enough to start a fire without splitting wood.

Actually, one reason I could maybe see needing to split wood, would be to make a fire board. I have seen many people do it, but I myself have never tried it. :o

I am not saying it can't be done, isn't safer, more accurate, or just good to know how to do, all I am saying is I never had to do it.

So, I am going to look at this new skill like I do CPR, I know how to do it, and I hope I never have to.

By the way, I did not find any fun in doing it. I still hate splitting wood. ;)
 
desmobob said:
That's my whole point... I don't NEED to baton (or use an axe) to get small stuff; it's everywhere! I bring an axe or saw so I can cut up the big stuff so it fits in the firepit or so I can carry it to the camp site.

Stay sharp,
desmobob
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If I need fire and need it NOW, batonning is the way I go. It has been my experience that some of the Texas trees; oak, hickory, pecan, and even cedar, burn better when split. If I am trying to get a big flame going for whatever reason, it is easier when you increase the surface area of the material burning. It is the same concept of 'fluffing' PJCB to start a fire.



PeACE
Dougo
 
wow folks, calm down :) Look at it this way, there are always going to be multiple ways to do things, find what works for you!
 
amen

you folks that baton can baton all you want. I choose not to, and by doing so that does not in any way diminish my wilderness skills. Finally, we have so much wood here (thanks to a liberal eco nazi "forest fires are bad" attitude from our Forest Service), that the forest floor is covered with firewood, ready to burn. I also happen to enjoy swinging an ax, its a side business for me. I use my knives for cutting and slicing, my axes for felling and splitting (splitting ax), also use my chainsaw.

as for batining being the only way to make a fire board, i cry foul. Whatever happened to shaving down your round with your knive? i can get a perfectly flat surface in no time by squaring off a round and shaving it down to a fireboard. just saying

THBBBBT! :)
 
Bushman5 said:
you folks that baton can baton all you want. I choose not to, and by doing so that does not in any way diminish my wilderness skills.
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+1

As I said to the OP in my first post in this topic, "If you want to do it, then by all means do it".



Kind regards
Mick
 
People baton because they have a really big knife and have to justify and find a use for it. It seems like there has been alot of pictures on this forum of large FBNMBS knives doing it. Maybe as a last resort in a survival situation but I prefer and carry an axe.
 
Why does this always end up a "I can pi$$ further than you can"? I can't even count the number of times there has been a thread about batonning, who does it, why, why am I smarter than they are, etc., etc., etc.

Bushman5 said, "you folks that baton can baton all you want. I choose not to, and by doing so that does not in any way diminish my wilderness skills."
I agree 100%. Other very knowledgable and experienced people on here have shared Bushman's opinion - Codger 64 and Runningboar to name a couple. I don't doubt the capability of any of these people.

OTOH, many survival instructors employ batonning: Ray Mears, Chris Janowsky (may he rest in peace), Mors Kochanski,and Ron Hood to name a few.

zman308 People baton because they have a really big knife and have to justify and find a use for it.
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zman, I hate to disappoint you, but I baton because I have a bad back and can't use an axe. If I had a good back, and I was in the Boreal Forest, an axe would be my #1 choice.

The point here is that if you baton, it doesn't make you smarter, or more experienced than people that don't. Similarly people who don't baton are not necessarily smarter, or more bush savvy than those that do.

The bottom line is, if it works for you -GREAT!

Threads should be emphasizing skills and techniques that work for you, in the hope that they may be of some help to someone else, not why and how you are so much smarter, woods-wise, experienced, etc., etc. etc.

We're here to help one another, not engage in one-upmanship, or am I mistaken? :confused:

Doc (leaving his soap box)
 
DOC-CANADA said:
Why does this always end up a "I can pi$$ further than you can"? I can't even count the number of times there has been a thread about batonning, who does it, why, why am I smarter than they are, etc., etc., etc.

Bushman5 said, "you folks that baton can baton all you want. I choose not to, and by doing so that does not in any way diminish my wilderness skills."
I agree 100%. Other very knowledgable and experienced people on here have shared Bushman's opinion - Codger 64 and Runningboar to name a couple. I don't doubt the capability of any of these people.

OTOH, many survival instructors employ batonning: Ray Mears, Chris Janowsky (may he rest in peace), Mors Kochanski,and Ron Hood to name a few.

zman, I hate to disappoint you, but I baton because I have a bad back and can't use an axe. If I had a good back, and I was in the Boreal Forest, an axe would be my #1 choice.

The point here is that if you baton, it doesn't make you smarter, or more experienced than people that don't. Similarly people who don't baton are not necessarily smarter, or more bush savvy than those that do.

The bottom line is, if it works for you -GREAT!

Threads should be emphasizing skills and techniques that work for you, in the hope that they may be of some help to someone else, not why and how you are so much smarter, woods-wise, experienced, etc., etc. etc.

We're here to help one another, not engage in one-upmanship, or am I mistaken? :confused:

Doc (leaving his soap box)
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Good post Doc. Yes, I was taught to never beat a knife through a piece of wood either with or across the grain. I was taught this by an older generation who themselves were taught by their fathers and grandfathers. None of them grew up in a society where knives were considered "disposable" or easily replaced. Knives were first and foremost cutting tools.

Other tools were specifically designed for hacking, chopping and splitting wood. Knives meant for hunting (camping, bushcraft, woodcraft) (and I have studied knife design from circa 1900 - 1970 extensively) were designed with fairly thin blades. Beating on one or prying with one was considered abusing a tool.

But as knives became more easily replacable (disposable), and more people (customers of cutlers) favored beating and prying with their knives, thick spined knives became more available. Some companies specialize in knives like this now. I've personally never developed a fondness for thick blades (yes, thin blades can be used like this, even a paring knife from the kitchen). I use methods of firebuilding and other bushcraft/woodcraft chores which avoid having to use the baton (maul) on a knife, even when I have no axe or pocket axe available. Old habits die hard.

What works (and is enjoyable) for me may not work (and be enjoyable) for everyone. I do understand why people here like to baton, or find it a useful technique to reduce wood to desired sizes and shapes.

I am reminded of a fellow I bought an old used hunting knife from. He related the story of how he came by the knife, a Schrade Walden 165UH. It seems he had bought another, thinner spined flat ground knife from that company and promptly broke it while cutting through a pelvis (deer or hog, I don't remember). Schrade Walden had a liberal replacement policy and sent him another which he again promptly broke. As a final replacement, the President of the company sent him the heavier spined, full tanged 165UH. Even using it as a pelvis bone chopper/prybar for years, he didn't break that one, the one I eventually bought.

While I thanked him for his story and didn't mention what was obvious to me, I was reminded of how I have butchered deer and hogs for more than fifty years and never broke a blade. Or needed to split a pelvis that couldn't wait until I had access to a saw or and axe. In fact, I have reduced a deer to meat using a tiny pen knife. It took a while, but it was doable.

I guess what I am saying is to each his own. If you enjoy one style of knife usage, even if it involves what to me seems like non-traditional usage, by all means enjoy. It is your knife, your skills used in your environment, all quite different from mine.

Codger

PS: It is Doc's fault that I posted on yet another batoning thread. I hope I kept it urine-free!:D
 
desmobob, your right about the abundance of wood in upstate NY. I do a lot of hunting in the tug hill region, and there definitely is no shortage of it. Everywhere you look there is dead and fallen wood. I guess were lucky in that aspect. I carry a fiskars telescoping saw to handle all my wood needs, but I could get by without it.
 
Big Mike said:
Ok, so now we’re batoning axes, …It’s still batoning.

The bottom line is that knowing how to use a baton is a useful skill.
Click to expand...

Right, I was just pointing out that batoning is not just a knife skill. There seems to be the misconception that it's only a useful technique for knives.
 
zman308 said:
People baton because they have a really big knife and have to justify and find a use for it. ... Maybe as a last resort in a survival situation but I prefer and carry an axe.
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Yes and no, big knives have an edge, in batoning, but most modern "big knives" are thick, and thick doesn't help in batoning, those are actually more useful for chopping. The best blade for batoning large logs is probably long and thin like those Saami knives.
As for carrying an axe, I agree it is more efficient with a large margin when it comes to chopping or splitting, but I've given up carrying 2lbs for occasional use while I can do the job with a sturdy small knife, by batonning. Slower, more complicated but ten times lighter.

Codger_64 said:
Beating on one or prying with one was considered abusing a tool.
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While using a pocket or hunting knife to baton, would probably have been considered abuse, the action of batonning is actually pretty old, if you consider the right tools:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Froe

Yes you bash it with a wooden mallet. Arguably this is not exactly a knife, but it isn't so different from certain other knives.
As said earlier I consider battoning a knife not so different from "battoing" a wood chisel, and there isn't that exccentic if you look at it that way.

Arguably, I'll also use twigs instead whenever possible.
 
Yep - voices of reason....

DOC-CANADA said:
Why does this always end up a "I can pi$$ further than you can"? I can't even count the number of times there has been a thread about batonning, who does it, why, why am I smarter than they are, etc., etc., etc.

Bushman5 said, "you folks that baton can baton all you want. I choose not to, and by doing so that does not in any way diminish my wilderness skills."
I agree 100%. Other very knowledgable and experienced people on here have shared Bushman's opinion - Codger 64 and Runningboar to name a couple. I don't doubt the capability of any of these people.
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Codger_64 said:
What works (and is enjoyable) for me may not work (and be enjoyable) for everyone. I do understand why people here like to baton, or find it a useful technique to reduce wood to desired sizes and shapes.

...I guess what I am saying is to each his own. If you enjoy one style of knife usage, even if it involves what to me seems like non-traditional usage, by all means enjoy. It is your knife, your skills used in your environment, all quite different from mine.
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You know - I kind of miss Runningboar stirring the pot (a.k.a. how are you guys breaking your mora's) every once in a while. Glad you reminded me of him Doc. He sort of fell off the forum map this year. I hope he returns. Mneedham also seems to be taking a vacation from us.

Good to see your posts Codger!
 
I reframed from posting in this thread due to I thought after a few post from those who do & those who do not baton posted this thread would make its way to the next page,it is a good thread and I enjoy the different views ,both with good points,I typically do not baton anything under 6" blade length and must be atleast 1/4" thick if I am going to Baton wood and that is just me not saying other blades are not built to handle this but I for one have two knives that I use to baton ,Becker Brute & Chopweiler all my other blade are use as intended.that is my personal choice.
 
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