Why Does Everyone Think 1095 is Tough?

[James Starr]

Thanks for all the great replies. This has been a lively thread, but everyone has been super helpful and the discourse has been very civil, even if we don't agree. I appreciate that, and I feel like I have a pretty good handle on why my experience with 1095 doesn't jive with the common perception. There is no doubt that1095 is a great, classic steel, and it can excel at outdoor tasks. It's not tough relative to a lot of other steels, but it can be tough enough with an appropriate heat treat and blade profile. That is in line with my experience. I'm going to spend the holidays with my loved ones, and I hope all of you enjoy your holidays. Merry Christmas.

 

[91bravo]

Great, a batoning thread!

 

[91bravo]

I've been trying to break this BK9 for about 5 years now. I have failed miserably. 1095 with a good heat treat is a wonderful steel in a heavy-hitting woods blade. You can even sharpen it with a rock.

 

[studio]

Not to derail too far, just postulating batoning may be a regional and timing thing? An environment of close in wet woods with limited room to handle a larger tool combined with a population of more urban folks with little upbringing around larger wood processing tools?

I did see A2 on the earlier charts and was surprised to see a relativelty low hardness. My assumption had always been A2 tool steel, must be really tough.

Thank you all for the wonderful and educational conversation.

 

[Zeunerite]

I said that TO ME, they're more energy efficient, less bothersome and allow more control.

And to me, tomahawks are more energy efficient, not bothersome at all, and allow plenty of control.

Every solution is fine to me as long as you can get through. That's what bushcraft is and that's exactly what I replied to you above.

Yes, versatility in technique is key. Yet the alternatives I've mentioned have been deemed "inefficient and dumb" or "black magic buzzwords."

Your unwillingness to learn could explain why you struggle so much with hatchets.

 

[Smiling]

I did see A2 on the earlier charts and was surprised to see a relativelty low hardness. My assumption had always been A2 tool steel, must be really tough.

It is tough steel, but even A2 wold be brittle if they ran it's hardness too high.
They keep the hardness down so the steel is tougher.

Steels that remain very tough even at high hardness are rare, one of those is 3V for example, but it's compleletely different animal.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

It depends...
@EatingSarma has been cutting wires and cables with his D2 Boker GoBag that cost him like 25€...
I wanted to intervene as D2 is supposed to be chippy and chip out on such use, but his edge suffered no damage at all. He's using that knife for these tasks fairly often. But according to internet - it should have chipped...

I tried the same with my 3V - it also received no damage at all. That is no surprise.

Out of curiosity, I tried to do the same with my SK5 CRKT Mossback B&T when I got home - there was some dulling after copper wire (the very edge folded on itself).

Later I asked him to do the same with his ESEE3 which is 1095 - part of his edge got pressed in he said.

None of that was damage that can't be fixed in few minutes on a stone but results are rather interesting.
SK5 and 1095 are softer, so they both took some damage.
3V performed as expected, while I didn't think that D2 can cut metal without taking damage as it's known as brittle steel.

I don't think you can use blanket statements like SK5 and 1095 are softer than D2, what is more likely is that particular D2 is higher HRC than that particular 1095. I can run 1095 with differential hardening at 64+ HRC and it can cut steel nails in half with no deformation. D2 is often taken 60-62 HRC by production knife makers, and 1095 is often taken 55-58 by production knife makers, so of course a 62 HRC D2 blade will roll less than a 57 HRC 1095 blade. 5 HRC points is a lot of difference in hardness and edge stability. If I got my 64+ HRC 1095 hamon knives and tested them against 58 HRC D2 guess which one will roll chopping a steel nail, the D2.
You can't just take a 57 HRC 1095 blade and compare it to a 62 HRC D2 blade then say 1095 is softer. Because of course it is, it was made softer by the specific heat treatment it was given. 57 HRC is always going to be softer than 62 HRC no matter what steel you use.

 

[Smiling]

I don't think you can use blanket statements like SK5 and 1095 are softer than D2, what is more likely is that particular D2 is higher HRC than that particular 1095. I can run 1095 with differential hardening at 64+ HRC and it can cut steel nails in half with no deformation. D2 is often taken 60-62 HRC by production knife makers, and 1095 is often taken 55-58 by production knife makers, so of course a 62 HRC D2 blade will roll less than a 57 HRC 1095 blade. 5 HRC points is a lot of difference in hardness and edge stability. If I got my 64+ HRC 1095 hamon knives and tested them against 58 HRC D2 guess which one will roll chopping a steel nail, the D2.
You can't just take a 57 HRC 1095 blade and compare it to a 62 HRC D2 blade then say 1095 is softer. Because of course it is, it was made softer by the specific heat treatment it was given. 57 HRC is always going to be softer than 62 HRC no matter what steel you use.

I agree, it's my bad I didn't express differently.

What I meant to say is that ESEE runs their 1095 softer for additional toughness.

Most of production companies using 1095 won't do differential hardening or hamon, and the ones that do will also charge more for those knives.

And despite hamon and differential hardening I would still hesitate to chop 64HRC 1095 into a nail.

I wanted to say that some steels can remain tough even at high HRC, 1095 isn't one of them unless there is some differential hardening, as 1095 is fairly simple steel it can be done without too much hassle.
64HRC 3V is going to be way tougher than 64HRC 1095 while offering better edge retention.
And maybe 64HRC D2 isn't tougher than 64HRC 1095, but it will likley have better edge retention.

1095 is inexpensive, easy to work with and easy to get sharp, which is probably why it's popular for outdoors use.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I agree, it's my bad I didn't express differently.

What I meant to say is that ESEE runs their 1095 softer for additional toughness.

Most of production companies using 1095 won't do differential hardening or hamon, and the ones that do will also charge more for those knives.

And despite hamon and differential hardening I would still hesitate to chop 64HRC 1095 into a nail.

I wanted to say that some steels can remain tough even at high HRC, 1095 isn't one of them unless there is some differential hardening, as 1095 is fairly simple steel it can be done without too much hassle.
64HRC 3V is going to be way tougher than 64HRC 1095 while offering better edge retention.
And maybe 64HRC D2 isn't tougher than 64HRC 1095, but it will likley have better edge retention.

1095 is inexpensive, easy to work with and easy to get sharp, which is probably why it's popular for outdoors use.

That's probably true, I agree, I'm not sure how 3V or D2 act at 64 HRC I've never really handled or worked with them or heard of anybody running them that high. I guess I could say the same for 1095 as well though, I've never seen 1095 for sale in the mid to high 60's until I made some myself. I have some D2 blades at 60+ HRC and it's really good stuff holds a good edge.
I think guys in the USA seem to get 1095 way cheaper than us over here in the UK, I always end up paying £30 per bar of AISI 1095, I can get W2 and O1 for way cheaper.

 

[Chapp]

And to me, tomahawks are more energy efficient, not bothersome at all, and allow plenty of control.

Yes, versatility in technique is key. Yet the alternatives I've mentioned have been deemed "inefficient and dumb" or "black magic buzzwords."

Your unwillingness to learn could explain why you struggle so much with hatchets.

Why do you believe I (or anyone) have anything to learn from you when it comes to cutting woods ? Cut your wood with what you want, I don't care. Just don't try to push fancy rules about bushcrafting and overcomplicate simple stuff humanity have done for 5000+ years without your help.

You're the first person to use the word "dumb" on this page and I never said an axe or an hatchet were inneficients. I said to me, batonning is more efficient.

 

[Smiling]

That's probably true, I agree, I'm not sure how 3V or D2 act at 64 HRC I've never really handled or worked with them or heard of anybody running them that high. I guess I could say the same for 1095 as well though, I've never seen 1095 for sale in the mid to high 60's until I made some myself. I have some D2 blades at 60+ HRC and it's really good stuff holds a good edge.
I think guys in the USA seem to get 1095 way cheaper than us over here in the UK, I always end up paying £30 per bar of AISI 1095, I can get W2 and O1 for way cheaper.

I agree it varies greatly.

If I wanted to make my own knife, I'd have abudance of 5160, and when it comes to steels to buy - D2, L2 (80CrV2), N690 and Sandvik steel...

But 5160 is pretty much everywhere here.

Edit: I'm not a bladesmith, but that's what local knife makers most often use.

 

[Zeunerite]

Cut your wood with what you want, I don't care. Just don't try to push fancy rules about bushcrafting and overcomplicate simple stuff humanity have done for 5000+ years without your help.

The methods I mentioned are much older than batonning.

I don't care about spending precious energy to carve wedges into wood or fancy dumb techniques.

You're the first person to use the word "dumb" on this page and I never said an axe or an hatchet were inneficients. I said to me, batonning is more efficient.

Who said the word "dumb" first?
I'll accept that batonning is more efficient for you compared to how you would use a hatchet. Would you be willing to accept that the way I like to use a hatchet is more efficient to me?

Also, what are these "fancy rules" you keep mentioning that I supposedly keep pushing?

 

[James Starr]

 

[upnorth]

First of all what an awesome thread !!! Man oh man I haven't seen such a fascinating discussion in general for a long time. So thank you all for your input. The diversity of experience/technical knowledge/view points was very interesting, and made me self assess. I have been playing, yes playing, with knives most of my life. But it took a very frightening experience many years ago in the Boreal forest, very long story, to reveal my true ignorance. Then I made an effort to gain knowledge and experience with "Bushcrafting", or whatever my limited version of it is. I think that my version is closer to basic out door survival skills, and or casual recreation. Anyway, I had no real knowledge of knife steel or designs. I default fell into ESEE and Cold Steel knives as their orientations, particularly ESEE, leaned toward rough outdoor use. This is after casual viewing on B.F. I also have a diversity of interests, so I was never overly obsessive about some of this stuff. I do feel that my outdoor tool use has evolved over the years. I have two plastic tubs of knives and a closet full of fancy Swedish etc. axes and hatchets. I started off batoning, then moved to bringing a hatchet along, to going back to batoning a knife again. I just find simplicity, speed, and pleasure in it, unless the weather is extreme. Location and environment are deciding parameters for what I bring these days. I bring a back up cutting tool or two because I'm not Mors Kochanski. By reviewing this thread, and I will again, I still have appreciation for the variety of knives/cutting tools that I have, including my 1095 blades. But this is what I have been using lately.

With 5160 at a quarter inch thick I'm not overly concerned about busting it, ya I'm a Tanto phreak, lol. Actually I like the additional tip for bark slicing, and the wedge shape for light prying of natural materials. A side benefit of learning a little about outdoor survival is additional information, about fire making with little to no cutting tool use. I probably, almost guaranteed, can get a roaring fire going without any cutting tool. I've done it in winter snow many times, just to teach myself with real world experience. But in serious cold I want quick. Screw the knife, I grab a hatchet or axe. To each their own, in their own environments. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to all who participated in this thread and advanced my knowledge base, or changed my perception about some of my cutting tools.

 

[Smiling]

First of all what an awesome thread !!! Man oh man I haven't seen such a fascinating discussion in general for a long time. So thank you all for your input. The diversity of experience/technical knowledge/view points was very interesting, and made me self assess. I have been playing, yes playing, with knives most of my life. But it took a very frightening experience many years ago in the Boreal forest, very long story, to reveal my true ignorance. Then I made an effort to gain knowledge and experience with "Bushcrafting", or whatever my limited version of it is. I think that my version is closer to basic out door survival skills, and or casual recreation. Anyway, I had no real knowledge of knife steel or designs. I default fell into ESEE and Cold Steel knives as their orientations, particularly ESEE, leaned toward rough outdoor use. This is after casual viewing on B.F. I also have a diversity of interests, so I was never overly obsessive about some of this stuff. I do feel that my outdoor tool use has evolved over the years. I have two plastic tubs of knives and a closet full of fancy Swedish etc. axes and hatchets. I started off batoning, then moved to bringing a hatchet along, to going back to batoning a knife again. I just find simplicity, speed, and pleasure in it, unless the weather is extreme. Location and environment are deciding parameters for what I bring these days. I bring a back up cutting tool or two because I'm not Mors Kochanski. By reviewing this thread, and I will again, I still have appreciation for the variety of knives/cutting tools that I have, including my 1095 blades. But this is what I have been using lately.

With 5160 at a quarter inch thick I'm not overly concerned about busting it, ya I'm a Tanto phreak, lol. Actually I like the additional tip for bark slicing, and the wedge shape for light prying of natural materials. A side benefit of learning a little about outdoor survival is additional information, about fire making with little to no cutting tool use. I probably, almost guaranteed, can get a roaring fire going without any cutting tool. I've done it in winter snow many times, just to teach myself with real world experience. But in serious cold I want quick. Screw the knife, I grab a hatchet or axe. To each their own, in their own environments. Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks to all who participated in this thread and advanced my knowledge base, or changed my perception about some of my cutting tools.

I don't have much knowledge about bushcraft and I mostly use my knives in industrial setting, but I am getting more and more fascinated by outdoors.

So I also appreciate imput from others who have different kind of experience.

 

[Grayman1984]

I baton with folders, fight me.

 

[stabman]

The methods I mentioned are much older than batonning.

You don't know that for sure.
Who knows if the first primitive human-like creature chopped at something or bashed something with a sharp edge through a bone/stick/etc.?
None of us were there.

Batonning as a term is sort of new, but doing it is not.
People used to just call it "splitting wood with a knife."
It was generally done with wood that was not all that thick.
It was no big deal, so no one bothered talking about it a whole bunch (or at all).
Much like how people didn't generally write giant books about how to use an axe or saw; it was something you generally were taught by someone older in your family, and then you just did it. Now, with the internet and lots of free time, we spend a bunch of effort bloviating about axes, knives, saw, tomahawks, wedges, and why everyone else is wrong.

What IS new is weirdos on YouTube bashing knives through huge logs for no reason other than to get views.
But then again, that is not a Bushcraft technique...it is an internet views technique.

 

[steelhead seeker]

So I didn't go through all 8 pages of replies but I got a question for the OP. You said in your original post that you got other knives in 1095 that you "use hard without concern". Yet the entire post is basically you repeating that in 'your experience' 1095 just isn't that tough and you gave 1 example of you breaking a cheap condor knife...so what else makes you think it isn't tough? Repeating yourself over and over about how its not tough doesnt tell anyone why. I don't know either way but I wouldn't say something isn't tough just because of 1 bad experience with it... and to top it off of all the companies that make 1095 "survival" type knives condor isn't known for having the best ones..

 

[Arathol]

What IS new is weirdos on YouTube bashing knives through huge logs for no reason other than to get views.
But then again, that is not a Bushcraft technique...it is an internet views technique.

Well, the Youtube part is of course fairly recent, but bashing stuff with knives as an attention getter is nothing really new. The aforementioned Frank Richtig was hammering his knives through rail road spikes, horse shoes and crow bars 80 years ago at shows and fairs. It was a sales pitch, it got him sort of famous at the time and a spot in Ripleys Believe It or Not magazine.

 

[strategy9]

Uhm...
Because 1095 IS tough, compared to many many different steels...

There are also many many different steels that are tougher then 1095...

1095 (or any steel) heat treated for better edge retention, would also not be the same as the exact same steel heat treated for toughness, so not all 1095's will perform the same...

You've had better luck with n690, great, stick with n690... many others have reported issues with n690 chipping and rolling...

I've always liked 1095, because of it's balanced properties... it's tougher then a bunch of other steels out there, but also holds an edge better then a lot of tougher stuff out there, and is still easier to maintain and sharpen then more advanced stuff...

Properly treated, It's a very balanced steel, kind of down the middle in nearly every category save for rust resistance.