Why Doesn't BUCK Grow Beyond 420HC?

In my latest AG Russell Mag., I noted some $300 lonewolf folders using AUS8, if that means anything. Fancy wood and even Pearl handles.
 
Knifeworld had an article a few months back about a US custom maker who uses 420 with a "special" heat treat. He does it for its performance properties. The reviewer agreed that the performance was excellent. I believe the most popular sandivick steel is similar to 420 and it is used by many custom makers in europe and a few in this country.

Its not just the steel, its the edge and heat treatment. The knife in question may not have a mirror polish, but the finish it does have needs a high chromium steel to inhibit corrosion. Remember, high polish = less corrosion.

What it boils down to is buck is not marketing to the steel snobs, that might hurt your feelings, but they don't care. They are one of the most popular US knife companies and the leader in sales for US knife companies founded in the 20th century. U may disagree, but the market proves them right. Pretty knives that don't sell will ruin a company.
 
I'm not sure if anyone touched on this, but it all could come down to warranty. I would think that 420 HC would cost a fraction of S30V or 154CM or whatever. I would bet they take a huge risk on their Alaskan and BP series using premium steels.

THey still take risk with the high end knives on the materials, but the steel is cheaply warrantied.
 
Confederate said:
Again, if that's true, one would think reputable custom knife makers would be using 420HC blades in their pieces. Keep in mind that it's not just edge retention. The more you have to sharpen a knife, the more the knife wears. That would indicate that an S30V or other premium blade would last longer, having to be sharpened less.

So, why do custom knife makers put premium steel blades in knives that may never be used? I'm not dead sure, but I'm willing to guess it's because they're proud of their work and that they see a knife as a whole. As I stated earlier, how many people would buy Sebenzas if they suddenly were offered with AUS8? AUS8 isn't a bad steel, mind you; it's one of my favorites. Still, I don't think too many people would be buying them.
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In my head I think of a collectible Buck in a much different cattegory, being almost 20 times the going rate of the cheapest user Buck, as one that no one will use. And one that Buck doesnt put out with any intention of people using.

I think of Sebs, Cooks, Hinderers, Lums or Busses and most other high end custom and production makers, as built to be used, but also happen to be collected. But those are all built to be hard use, and because they excel at that, end up being collected.

Maybe were just coming from different places? It never once occured to me anyone would use one of those fancy guys... so while I agree with the benefits in USE for other steels, I dont see the benefits for a piece that spends its whole life in a safe or cabinet...
 
On a side note, I have to say that I'm very impressed with the Buck Alaskan 110 and the Vanguard—and as long as I can get those, I can't be too unhappy.

If anyone has any experience with the standard 420HC steel and Cold Steel's AUS8/VG1, I'd like to find out which has better edge retention

Oh, and I just noticed that Gerber has just reintroduced its EZ-Out with S30V. It has somewhat of a retarded point, but it is a step in the right direction for Gerber. People who have the Leatherman Charge Ti w/S30V knife blade say it's much better than the regualr 420HC blades on the Wave and the Surge.
 
nozh2002 said:
I just recently finish testing 420HC - pretty impressive results. This is defenetly not entry level ceap steel I get used to think! Right behind CPM S30V and ahead of many suppose to be much better.

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Manila-Rope-Results.html

Thanks, Vassili.
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Anyway we could get that in English? ;)

I'd like to add that AUS-4/6 is comparable to 420HC, and nobody will touch those steels. :) IMO 420HC doesn't hold an edge long enough for me to care, and the edge is a little fragile. Buck grinds their knives thinner to improve performance, but it also makes the edge susceptible to chipping and dents. I think the thinner edge (not the HT) is responsible for Bucks' improved performance in the 420HC line.
 
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I think (and I've noticed a couple posts that mention it, plus have several Buck knives to back it up) that Buck grinds the edges of their knifes far thinner then any S30/90V knife I have (T-Mag and a CF Millie). S30V can be ground down to that thinness, but (I think) due to it's brittle-ness, shouldn't be. This gives 420HC a perceived edge (pardon the pun) in edge retention. It's thinner, and more ductile, so it can take more abuse with a thinner edge.
 
Josh K, has S30V ever been too brittle to perform in a real life scenario for you?
 
Vivi said:
Josh K, has S30V ever been too brittle to perform in a real life scenario for you?
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In my experience? Nope. Not once, not ever. I love my S30V knives. However, I'm sure that if I went out cutting 10 gauge wire with my T-Mag or something, it'd probably f*ck the edge up a bit. I know (from experience) that cutting wire, hitting nails and staples, etc with my Buck knives (420HC) that the edge deforms, but it can be straitened out with a good butchers steel and sharpened back up.

I offer the brittle/ductile theory in lue of other theories concerning the results of testing S30V knives vs. 420HC knives. I don't believe it's the HT. I think it's the chemistry of the blade.
 
Buck was doing something great when they collaberated with Strider. Now they just make all the same old school type blades. The Mayo are ok, But all in all it's still the same old 110 and Hunter special. Lots of people will buy them. they sell them at every walmart. We have to remember. We, "Us" on Bladeforums, are a very very small minority. the average person will probably think a $45 110 is too much. But they will get one at walmart and keep it for years. use it half dull. They don't care and never will. Thats why they will always sell. and people will always be fat and eat Mcdonalds. it's all the same. It's the American way.Lol. They don't stick with 420 for ANY reason that has ANYTHING to do with performance. They cater to the general population that wants a $40 dollar knife that won't fall apart in a week, but isn't too much to manufacture.
 
stolas223 said:
Buck was doing something great when they collaberated with Strider. Now they just make all the same old school type blades. The Mayo are ok, But all in all it's still the same old 110 and Hunter special. Lots of people will buy them. they sell them at every walmart. We have to remember. We, "Us" on Bladeforums, are a very very small minority. the average person will probably think a $45 110 is too much. But they will get one at walmart and keep it for years. use it half dull. They don't care and never will. Thats why they will always sell. and people will always be fat and eat Mcdonalds. it's all the same. It's the American way.Lol. They don't stick with 420 for ANY reason that has ANYTHING to do with performance. They cater to the general population that wants a $40 dollar knife that won't fall apart in a week, but isn't too much to manufacture.
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Here is a man that understands the Buck business paradigm.
 
In general I think Buck has too big production and making 500 knives is just does not make sense for them. And thisis why they have Custom Shop which doing effectevely same what other manufacturers doing - limited runs. Just now they have BG-42 Buch 110 with micarta + G10 handle.

Only we may wish they will have more of this limited runs with more different tipes on steel and offers them to regular supplier like NewGrapham or KnifeWorks etc.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I started a thread over on the Buck forum due to CJ Buck's post in one of the threads over there. He said that a new blade steel is in the works but won't announce till the Jan. Shot Show. Here is his comments and my first post on the matter. It fits well in this discussion. Anyone care to guess what the new steel(s) might be?

we are enjoying working with the new steels. We will be introducing (for Buck) some new steels that are halfway steps between S30V and 420HC...at a price closer towards 420HC so is a good alternative. We have been field testing and have been pretty impressed so far.

As always the Bos heat treat makes a big difference.
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CJ posted this on the 154CM Vanguard thread but I thought it warranted its own thread.

So what do you guys think or know about this??
CJ says "New to Buck" OK so ATS-34, 154CM, & CPM-154 are out because Buck uses them already.
CJ says "New to Buck" OK so somebody else is already using these new steels. And, it’s more than one apparently.
CJ says "Halfway between S30V & 420HC" I take this to mean performance and they've been "pretty impressed so far."
CJ says "At a price closer toward 420HC"

So guys, what's out there in use by other makers that's considered a performance steel but also is cost effective?? Also, will Buck venture offshore for the sake of price on this steel?
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Buck offers a good low-cost knife for hunters and outdoorsmen, and their blades reflect that paradigm, but more expensive knives call for more expensive steels.

If 420HC was a supersteel, we could tell in its performance; however, people who use 420HC and S30V say that they can get substantially better edge holding from the latter. I love the Vanguard S30V I just got from Cabela's, though I don't know how strong the knife is (not being a full tang).

I'm not a big believer in knives that can be made for beauty but not for use, and any Buck ought to be fully duty ready at a moment's notice. That's why I'd rather have a high quality steel instead of a serial number (1 of 2000). No matter how you slice it, 420HC is a budget steel, and if they want to use a budget steel in a $500 knife, then more power to them.

In the U.K., where people aren't allowed to own real handguns, deactivated handguns actually go for more than working handguns do here in the United States. Evidently Brits are fond of opening their safes and showing their friends "real" deactivated guns. As an American this repels me and I hope we never reach that point here. I reckon my point is that a fine knife ought to have fine steel and a budget knife should have budget steel; but a fine knife should not have budget steel. Others may not know it, but I will.
 
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