Why don't people keep their Hinderer knives?

MostMenAreRuthless said:
Back to the topic at hand--I don't see much trashing of Hinderer knives in this thread. Their have been legitimate and documented issues with weak detents in some of the gens of the 3.5" XM-18 and some dissension on his sales policies, but otherwise not much trashing going on. The bottom line for me is that I wish I could buy another 3" for the LEO pricing, but alas I cannot. He makes a great product at a great price for those who can buy direct.
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There has been some.
I have owned a number of Hinderers of various generations and styles...and still do...and many of the "legitimate and documented issues" are either "features" of the XM or user error due to an incorrectly adjusted pivot.
I have never found the XM to be "unsafe" and I have never had one open unless I wanted it to open.
The detent has been designed so that the XM can be deployed easily and quickly in multiple ways....either with the flipper, the thumbstud, centrifugally or with a gravity drop.
Again....the XM was designed this way....so to call it a legitimate and documented issue is somewhat unfair....some people may not like the way it was designed....and that is fine.
I will also not say that the XM is "the best knife in the world and everybody should own one".....but I will say that I have owned some excellent knives, ZT's, CRKs, Curtiss' and others.....and still do....and I can and do see the value in an XM......even at the secondary market price.
Not everyone does.
 
xxfalconxx said:
There has been some.
I have owned a number of Hinderers of various generations and styles...and still do...and many of the "legitimate and documented issues" are either "features" of the XM or user error due to an incorrectly adjusted pivot.
I have never found the XM to be "unsafe" and I have never had one open unless I wanted it to open.
The detent has been designed so that the XM can be deployed easily and quickly in multiple ways....either with the flipper, the thumbstud, centrifugally or with a gravity drop.
Again....the XM was designed this way....so to call it a legitimate and documented issue is somewhat unfair....some people may not like the way it was designed....and that is fine.
I will also not say that the XM is "the best knife in the world and everybody should own one".....but I will say that I have owned some excellent knives, ZT's, CRKs, Curtiss' and others.....and still do....and I can and do see the value in an XM......even at the secondary market price.
Not everyone does.
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Interesting, I have never read or heard that it was designed to open by other methods than the flipper or thumb lugs.

I agree with you. Too many great knife companies in all categories and budgets to worry ourselves too much about knives or companies we may not agree with.
 
I do have a suggestion for the folks that want to say negative things about first responders getting direct pricing and being upset about it. Feel free to be a volunteer firefighter in your county. I understand that not all departments have volunteers but this would be a way to have access to this "work perk" that us tax suckers have access to. I am a full time firefighter in a city department and make decent money compared to other local departments but compared to other professions I am on the low income side of things. Therefore I work a part time job to help make ends meet. So for anyone thinking we have it made I would beg to differ. Not saying that I regret choosing this profession, as I don't at all. Just saying that I am in it for reasons not tied to money.
 
bigshoe83 said:
I am a full time firefighter in a city department and make decent money compared to other local departments but compared to other professions I am on the low income side of things. Therefore I work a part time job to help make ends meet. So for anyone thinking we have it made I would beg to differ. Not saying that I regret choosing this profession, as I don't at all. Just saying that I am in it for reasons not tied to money.
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I'm in the exact same boat. Well said brother!
 
bigshoe83 said:
I do have a suggestion for the folks that want to say negative things about first responders getting direct pricing and being upset about it. Feel free to be a volunteer firefighter in your county. I understand that not all departments have volunteers but this would be a way to have access to this "work perk" that us tax suckers have access to. I am a full time firefighter in a city department and make decent money compared to other local departments but compared to other professions I am on the low income side of things. Therefore I work a part time job to help make ends meet. So for anyone thinking we have it made I would beg to differ. Not saying that I regret choosing this profession, as I don't at all. Just saying that I am in it for reasons not tied to money.
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Nic S. said:
I'm in the exact same boat. Well said brother!
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I am not trying to turn this into a further discussion about money and do not want to derail the purpose of this thread. But again, as another example--the Unified Fire Authority in my county employs appx. 600+ firefighters, paramedics, techs, etc. and over half of them make nearly double the County's mean income. This is not a criticism or a negative comment, just simply the fact that a majority of the UFD employees make quite a bit more money than the "average" resident of my county.

Trying to argue status quo is impossible and I realize that different levels of income in different areas of the country mean different things according to cost of living etc.
 
Would you guys prefer if Rick sold them for 575 to the public, at shows and to dealers? He could then offer a 35% discount to qualifying people.

I was always under the impression Rick tries to keep his price point low so the outside that need them will be more likely to afford them.
 
MostMenAreRuthless said:
I am not trying to turn this into a further discussion about money and do not want to derail the purpose of this thread. But again, as another example--the Unified Fire Authority in my county employs appx. 600+ firefighters, paramedics, techs, etc. and over half of them make nearly double the County's mean income. This is not a criticism or a negative comment, just simply the fact that a majority of the UFD employees make quite a bit more money than the "average" resident of my county.

Trying to argue status quo is impossible and I realize that different levels of income in different areas of the country mean different things according to cost of living etc.
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Yeah, fyi: arguing "mean income" as a means for comparing wages is a pretty poor logic exercise. Many of the "average residents" making up the mean income level of your area are flipping burgers and gathering carts from the Home Depot parking lot. For every lawyer included in that number, there are one (or more) min-wage earners. There's a reason why many people in a variety of lines of work beat the mean income and yet still aren't making a lot of money. So, saying "Well, such and such is well paid because they make more than the mean income of our state/county/small European fiefdom!" is rather silly. It doesn't mean that people making more than the mean are well paid.

As an example, my household income is roughly four times the median income for my city. But so what? Trust me when I say I'm not crapping on a solid gold toilet located in a 5,000 sqft home, or driving a Porsche to work.
 
This isn't about firefighters LEOs, first responders etc. this is about Hinderer. Now we got a firefighter taking things personal. I do hope that there is noone here that really thinks that way about those folks. Firefighters are awesome and I admire them and frankly all of those fields where you put your life on the line for others also. Anyone putting blame on you guys who really do require tools like a reliable knife would be one narrow daft fella... And it's a nice gesture on Rick's part...BUT FOR HOW LONG NOW? (Again, it's not about YOU) How long has the XM18 been on the market? Rick is capable (if he wanted to) in investing in his company to fulfill the demand. He's happy with the way things are and it's his company so he runs it as he pleases of course. Fans will tell you that he has ramped up numbers every year it's been out but what is the result of it? Even dealers price them at hundereds above MSRP... It is by design....Quickly back to the first responders: I have in my personal life know dozens and none even know what a Hinderer is. "What's it a Airship?". LMAO, how about taking better care of 90% of your true fanbase also. Frankly, I can have my folks who he sells to at MSRP just buy it for me so you can't say I'm bitter for missing out.. It's not a perfect system and some LEO's get to flip over and over again etc. It's been that way for too long to say it's a temporary situation so all I'm saying is this is exactly how he wants it. Take it or leave it but be aware of it. (Wiseguys are gonna say: "Oh so you're in Hinderer's mind then huh? derr derr". It's clear as day, if you process it without bias)

Speaking for myself it has nothing to do with bitterness seeing the absurdity of the circus as it plays out and Their true customer base are collectors/knife afficionados NOT LEOs and Firefighters. THE TYPICAL KNIFE GUY over the years has payed upwards of $800 for them and they'll gladly sell you trinkets and shiny "mods" for your Xm18 to make your ultimate hard use knife cute to look at. All good if that's your thing but they sell those things to ANYONE, why not sell the actual knife to everyone. Bitterness? I do not see it from the responses, maybe one or two can be construed that way but who knows. To me it's calling a spade what it is.

Side note: Firefighters in the Bay Area make around $700 a day on three 24hour shifts per week. That's $100,800.00 gross per year. It's a coveted job and is hard to get in. I'm considering it... would need to be an EMT first (would be ideal on the resume).
 
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RevDevil said:
While I am not a fanboy, I would say that the "gentleman" as you so kindly refer to has a bit of a issue as well on these forums as well as others. It's not a surprise when I searched and easily found the individual to whom you refer. I will just leave it at that. Take what you read with a grain of salt, some folks make a living making a whole lot outta nothing.
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And some people like to speculate about things they really have no first hand knowledge about.
 
Stays Sharp said:
This isn't about firefighters LEOs, first responders etc. this is about Hinderer. Now we got a firefighter taking things personal. I do hope that there is noone here that really thinks that way about those folks. Firefighters are awesome and I admire them and frankly all of those fields where you put your life on the line for others also. Anyone putting blame on you guys who really do require tools like a reliable knife would be one narrow daft fella... And it's a nice gesture on Rick's part...BUT FOR HOW LONG NOW? (Again, it's not about YOU) How long has the XM18 been on the market? Rick is capable (if he wanted to) in investing in his company to fulfill the demand. He's happy with the way things are and it's his company so he runs it as he pleases of course. Fans will tell you that he has ramped up numbers every year it's been out but what is the result of it? Even dealers price them at hundereds above MSRP... It is by design....Quickly back to the first responders: I have in my personal life know dozens and none even know what a Hinderer is. "What's it a Airship?". LMAO, how about taking better care of 90% of your true fanbase also. Frankly, I can have my folks who he sells to at MSRP just buy it for me so you can't say I'm bitter for missing out.. It's not a perfect system and some LEO's get to flip over and over again etc. It's been that way for too long to say it's a temporary situation so all I'm saying is this is exactly how he wants it. Take it or leave it but be aware of it. (Wiseguys are gonna say: "Oh so you're in Hinderer's mind then huh? derr derr". It's clear as day, if you process it without bias)

Speaking for myself it has nothing to do with bitterness seeing the absurdity of the circus as it plays out and Their true customer base are collectors/knife afficionados NOT LEOs and Firefighters. THE TYPICAL KNIFE GUY over the years has payed upwards of $800 for them and they'll gladly sell you trinkets and shiny "mods" for your Xm18 to make your ultimate hard use knife cute to look at. All good if that's your thing but they sell those things to ANYONE, why not sell the actual knife to everyone. Bitterness? I do not see it from the responses, maybe one or two can be construed that way but who knows. To me it's calling a spade what it is.

Side note: Firefighters in the Bay Area make around $700 a day on three 24hour shifts per week. That's $100,800.00 gross per year. It's a coveted job and is hard to get in. I'm considering it... would need to be an EMT first (would be ideal on the resume).
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Dang, that sounds like pretty good money. Of course it also depends on the cost of living in the Bay Area. I can definitely see the frustration in the Hinderer business model and maybe at some point he will open it up to everyone for direct orders.
 
nightman said:
IF................I could buy something for $385.00 and sell it for $600.00 to $800.00 I might be tempted to do so.
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This has probably been parroted several times already but this is the answer. Like it or not, there are a fair amount of people that buy and sell knives for profit on these boards, not because they want to use them. In the case of Hinderers, there are a fair amount of "us" who have multiples too and don't sell them. Then again, in a situation when you need some quick money, put a hinderer on the board for a fair price and watch it sell in 2 minutes.
 
bodog said:
Anyway, had they fixed the detent, I would still probably have it. They refused, so I sold it. I won't buy another just to flip it. They lost a customer in the exact field they market to because they produce a knife that CANNOT be carried on duty because the detent is so weak. It doesn't help when Rob Orlando responds with a dickish attitude and Rick doesn't stop it. I'm happy buying from makers that stand behind their products. KAI is a good example, and of course there are more. KAI just really did me right so I felt it was worth mentioning them specifically.

(Truth be told, I didn't think the knife was all that spectacular anyway, detent issues aside.) An 0560 is worth every cent they charge. I really didn't see anything about the XM18 I had that made it worth double the price of the 0560. That's just my opinion. I felt that way as soon as I opened the box and held and inspected it right out of the box. Has nothing to do with me feeling burned. Me stating my opinion does, though.)
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I've written extensively on Hinderer products - mostly in a reasonably positive light. Their business practices and people issues are their biggest problem. The issues you raise regarding Rob and Rick aren't unique to you.
 
Quiet said:
Right? I always get enjoyment out of the fact that some folks seem to forget a very important fact: a business can enact any policy it wants. If it only wants to sell goods to women, then oops, dudes are SOL.
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Uhhhhmmmm.....no. Lots of product and service providers are being sued right now because of their refusal to provide products and services to the Gay/Lesbian/Etc. community. What Hinderer is doing is different. He's not discriminating on the bases of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

Hinderer WANTS to create the perception of scarcity in the marketplace, and wants the "credibility" of selling his product directly to LEO/First Responders/etc. - good for marketing.
 
xxfalconxx said:
I really don't understand why everyone feels the need to trash Hinderer.

He makes a knife. A very good one. He sells it at a very reasonable price.
It is so good, in fact, that other companies make Hinderer inspired/designed knives.

No one is forcing you to buy them. The secondary market prices are what they are because that is what people will pay. Again no one is forcing you or anyone else to buy them and RHK has nothing to do with any of it.

But let me say one thing....if I were ever in a situation where I had to depend on my knife for survival....the knife above all others I would want in my pocket would be a Hinderer.

It is not even CLOSE to the most expensive knife out there....it is not nearly the flashiest....it is just a solidly built, easily serviced, completely dependable workhorse that I personally think looks amazing and feels very comfortable to carry and use.

If you don't think it's worth the money.....that's fine....buy something else....there are many choices available.....but don't trash Hinderers.....they are, without a doubt, excellent knives.
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I see very few actually trash the knife. I see more than a few people take issue with how Hinderer and company treat people, as well as their business practices.
 
On the income issue, according to a financial advisor I know, with all the talk of the "1%" in this country, supposedly if you make more than $35K/yr, you are in the world's top 1% of income. I haven't researched that claim, so TIFWIW. If true, I suppose we should consider ourselves very fortunate although there's a drastic gap in the expendable income of someone that makes $35K to someone who makes $100K, unfortunately.

On the actual knife topic, I suppose Hinderers are like .22LR these days. Plenty of people are willing to pay a higher secondary price, and as long as enough of the willing exist, it will remain there though it seems prices are trending downward. I wouldn't mind trying out a 3" one day if the stars align.
 
Stays Sharp said:
BUT FOR HOW LONG NOW? (Again, it's not about YOU) How long has the XM18 been on the market? Rick is capable (if he wanted to) in investing in his company to fulfill the demand. He's happy with the way things are and it's his company so he runs it as he pleases of course. Fans will tell you that he has ramped up numbers every year it's been out but what is the result of it? Even dealers price them at hundereds above MSRP... It is by design....Quickly back to the first responders: I have in my personal life know dozens and none even know what a Hinderer is. "What's it a Airship?". LMAO, how about taking better care of 90% of your true fanbase also. Frankly, I can have my folks who he sells to at MSRP just buy it for me so you can't say I'm bitter for missing out.. It's not a perfect system and some LEO's get to flip over and over again etc. It's been that way for too long to say it's a temporary situation so all I'm saying is this is exactly how he wants it. Take it or leave it but be aware of it. (Wiseguys are gonna say: "Oh so you're in Hinderer's mind then huh? derr derr". It's clear as day, if you process it without bias)

Speaking for myself it has nothing to do with bitterness seeing the absurdity of the circus as it plays out and Their true customer base are collectors/knife afficionados NOT LEOs and Firefighters. THE TYPICAL KNIFE GUY over the years has payed upwards of $800 for them and they'll gladly sell you trinkets and shiny "mods" for your Xm18 to make your ultimate hard use knife cute to look at. All good if that's your thing but they sell those things to ANYONE, why not sell the actual knife to everyone. Bitterness? I do not see it from the responses, maybe one or two can be construed that way but who knows. To me it's calling a spade what it is.
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So what do you think is happening? That his company is purposely keeping their production numbers down so that they don't make as much money? Remember that they are in a situation where there is a large amount of demand far in excess of their production capacity. If they want to make more money, they have to make more knives or raise their prices.

Raising production capacity quickly isn't easy for a small company. It means investing in infrastructure and equipment and it's a risk. What if demand tanks? What if they over estimate? So they raise their production capacity year over year in a manner that balances risk and benefit. In addition they capitalize on their designs popularity by taking on design partners like ZT.

It's not some gigantic conspiracy. He makes as many knives as his company can. Sells them all. As a courtesy he sells some to his own people (he was a FF after all) and to those who attend shows at table price. There is no direct benefit to him from the insane secondary market. People need to stop being bitter. It's just getting all torn up because you can't get what you want when you want it for the price you want. There's a lot of me me me in that. The marketplace doesn't work like that. I can't just decide I want to buy a Terzuola and get ticked off that I have to pay secondary market prices because I'm not on his books. Yeah, xm18s are productions/midtechs, but they're not in the same mass market class as a spyderco.
 
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