Why don't people keep their Hinderer knives?

[Stays Sharp]

So what do you think is happening? That his company is purposely keeping their production numbers down so that they don't make as much money? Remember that they are in a situation where there is a large amount of demand far in excess of their production capacity. If they want to make more money, they have to make more knives or raise their prices.

Raising production capacity quickly isn't easy for a small company. It means investing in infrastructure and equipment and it's a risk. What if demand tanks? What if they over estimate? So they raise their production capacity year over year in a manner that balances risk and benefit. In addition they capitalize on their designs popularity by taking on design partners like ZT.

It's not some gigantic conspiracy. He makes as many knives as his company can. Sells them all. As a courtesy he sells some to his own people (he was a FF after all) and to those who attend shows at table price. There is no direct benefit to him from the insane secondary market. People need to stop being bitter. It's just getting all torn up because you can't get what you want when you want it for the price you want. There's a lot of me me me in that. The marketplace doesn't work like that. I can't just decide I want to buy a Terzuola and get ticked off that I have to pay secondary market prices because I'm not on his books. Yeah, xm18s are productions/midtechs, but they're not in the same mass market class as a spyderco.

"Raising production capacity quickly"... It's all relative I guess. He's been this way selling the XM18 for nearly a decade. Is selling them at MSRP readily even an end goal for him? He puts alot of effort in his other endeavors (other knives and parlor tricks to dress up your XM). It's ok if you're on board with Hinderer's knives AND his business practices- more power to you. But don't be surprised that people that aren't into them think its absolutely absurd. Label me bitter LMAO, it's a knife. I have hundreds of them at any given time. It's no conspiracy, it's right there in front of you. Excuses for the brand is all I read, and I have labels for that as well, but that's for another day.

What you don't get is, I don't have my emotions involved like some of you and I'm simply commenting on what I see. Just another brand to me, and if I really-really wanted I can afford to purchase them at market value or acquire them at MSRP. But I'm also content enough with my knives that other companies SELL ME to dabble into the circus that is the Hinderer game. I'll be getting a 0562CF, THAT is how a knife is sold to a customer.

 

[99cuts]

Since they seem to hold their value, some folks might buy them to try them out knowing that they can be sold quickly and without loss if they don't like them.

^^

I read the entire thread and ignoring all the tangential issues, I think this is the the primary reason. Kinda makes sense since CRK gets exchanged just as often, and they also "hold their value".

There is a small % of sellers who are frequently putting up NIB or LNIB Hinderers on exchange. I suspect these guys are flippers / profit seekers, so I avoid them at all costs.

 

[wolfmann601]

Several years ago this thread would have been about Emerson Customs and read exactly the same.................

 

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Right? I always get enjoyment out of the fact that some folks seem to forget a very important fact: a business can enact any policy it wants. If it only wants to sell goods to women, then oops, dudes are SOL.

Although if a business chose to not sell goods to women then that business would be in court. Freedom of association is rather one way.

 

[cujobob]

I'm mobile and only read the first page so I apologize for that in advance. I think that people who collect knives get cases of envy when they see what their friends are purchasing and in order to try something else out, they have to sell setting they have. When you collect Spydercos, you don't often need to sell off other knives to buy new ones because their prices are lower. When you're buying knives over $500, it's a different story. Hinderer knives looks well made and useful for many things but they're not fancy, overly 'beautiful' or even the best performer at actual cutting. For someone who wants a knife that can take a beating and be a decent jack of all trades, it would work well. Collectors want rarity, beauty, or great flipping action. Hinderer knives aren't any of those. People who buy knives solely for cutting performance will also find better deals elsewhere because these thick knives are not great for cutting or affordable, even at $385. I would buy one at $385-450$ but can't justify more for what it is.

 

[cujobob]

I do have a suggestion for the folks that want to say negative things about first responders getting direct pricing and being upset about it. Feel free to be a volunteer firefighter in your county. I understand that not all departments have volunteers but this would be a way to have access to this "work perk" that us tax suckers have access to. I am a full time firefighter in a city department and make decent money compared to other local departments but compared to other professions I am on the low income side of things. Therefore I work a part time job to help make ends meet. So for anyone thinking we have it made I would beg to differ. Not saying that I regret choosing this profession, as I don't at all. Just saying that I am in it for reasons not tied to money.

I think it would be ludicrous to suggest anyone would join up for an occasional cheaper knife or whatnot, but I do believe it's a stupid policy to offer certain groups discounts on something that is so high priced in the first place. My personal belief is that a price should be the price. At the very least, he should have placed harder limits on those purchasing at discounted prices to minimize flipping. A discount of 50% is seriously just insane, though. Your product has too much markup when you can afford to do that.

 

[bigshoe83]

I totally agree with you. Wish he had a way to enforce a no flipping policy but I don't know how he could do that. It's kind of like government handout programs. It is obvious that some people take advantage of them but it is very hard to combat the problem.

 

[Silvanus]

a discount of 50% is seriously just insane, though.

It isn't a discount Rick offers, it is the opportunity to directly purchase the knife at what he believes the knife is worth. The $600-$700 dollar price is what the market values them at, so it only has the appearance of a discount. Anybody can argue prices and values all day but at the end of it, Rick sells a knife worth $385, a price he himself has set.

 

[pnsxyr]

For me, I traded mine because it is honestly a knife that is capable of usage that I will never expose it to, and I wanted to use its value and desirability to get other desirable knives that many collectors would not sell outright but would consider trading for an awesome knife like a XM-18.

The design I think is great even though I hate the fact that it sells for 200-300%+ MSRP, but that's life. I have no negative feedback, I think highly of the company as being professional and competent, and I think the Spanto is a great shape for people who want both strength and performance, with slightly more emphasis on strength than slicing. For hard performance, that's a big win. But for me, I prefer slicing and I do not need a blade that thick, or a knife that beefy. So something smaller, lighters, less expensive, and in a steel with higher wear resistance (and lower toughness) suits me better personally. A M390 blade with a 13 degree angle works better for my own personal usage of what I cut. For someone needing the power of a Spanto, that would probably be a terrible configuration for them.

Another possible reason is that people may just want to check other folders. There are tons of nice makers of frame locks, tons of awesome steels, and very diverse designs. And as we have seen on this forum and elsewhere, you often have to trade knives that are difficult to buy outright (like the XM) in order to get other knives of similar rarity. And if you want to convince someone to deal with you for a knife they really like, you have to offer a knife they are going to really want. In most cases, the XM brings interest.

The lack of the 3 inch version is another reason I think you see them so frequently. I would LOVE a 3 inch version for EDC, and I think you have noticed they rarely go up for sale. I think many owners of the 3.5 get the 3 and then keep that. I wish I got a 3 in a Slicer Grind (or a wharny if they make it), and I would have probably kept it and EDC it.

It is also worth noting that like Chris Reeve and other makers at that price-point, the Hinderer knives are absolutely great designs for first responders and military personnel, BUT, pricing of these products will always limit their adoption into these communities where knives like the Spyderco Endura are hugely popular because of the value and a few popular wholesalers that partner with agencies to sell certain knives at substantial discounts not available to the public. I would also say that a large majority of the people in these communities I know have families and so they have more expenses to think of which may override a $400-800 knife. (Of course that doesn't apply to everyone.)

 

[AZ2AK]

....Quickly back to the first responders: I have in my personal life know dozens and none even know what a Hinderer is. "What's it a Airship?". LMAO, how about taking better care of 90% of your true fanbase also.

Their true customer base are collectors/knife afficionados NOT LEOs and Firefighters. THE TYPICAL KNIFE GUY over the years has payed upwards of $800 for them and they'll gladly sell you trinkets and shiny "mods" for your Xm18 to make your ultimate hard use knife cute to look at. All good if that's your thing but they sell those things to ANYONE, why not sell the actual knife to everyone. .

This is an assumption but based off of my experience (15+ yrs active duty military), and it sounds like yours as well, most LEOs, firefighters, and even your average .mil kinda guys aren't clued into Hinderers because they are not "knife guys". Most knives I've seen in pockets and clipped to IBA are of the Gerber, Benchmade, CRKT variety. Why? Well, that's what the exchange sells and what the supply guys issue.

The XMs that RHK offers to first responders are "plain jane" XMs - stonewashed blade and lock side finish and limited choice of handle scale color (typically "tactical" shades of green, black, and FDE).

I happen to be both a knife aficionado as well as military. I will agree that Hinderers appeal to both, with the more rare and luxurious of them appealing to the collector fan base.

Uhhhhmmmm.....no. Lots of product and service providers are being sued right now because of their refusal to provide products and services to the Gay/Lesbian/Etc. community. What Hinderer is doing is different. He's not discriminating on the bases of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

Hinderer WANTS to create the perception of scarcity in the marketplace, and wants the "credibility" of selling his product directly to LEO/First Responders/etc. - good for marketing.

Perhaps. Don't think he needs the perception or the "credibility" though. The knives speak for themselves.

I see very few actually trash the knife. I see more than a few people take issue with how Hinderer and company treat people, as well as their business practices.

Sometimes the customer isn't always right. I've seen far more people praise RHK customer service than not.

 

[Lycosa]

Oops, my mistake. I thought this was a Strider thread.

 

[RevDevil]

And some people like to speculate about things they really have no first hand knowledge about.

Good of you to come, John. Look forward to your posts. Seems you outed yourself. Oh well.

Hinderer WANTS to create the perception of scarcity in the marketplace, and wants the "credibility" of selling his product directly to LEO/First Responders/etc. - good for marketing.

Ironic isn't it? Nice Tu Quoque.
Cheers.

 

[Salo]

Right? I always get enjoyment out of the fact that some folks seem to forget a very important fact: a business can enact any policy it wants. If it only wants to sell goods to women, then oops, dudes are SOL. If Hinderer wants to market his products to public servants such as LE/Firefighters/EMS, then guess what? He has that right!!! Don't like it, then don't do business with that company!

Unethical? Nothing Hinderer is doing is unethical, sorry. Disrespectful? Then voice your displeasure the only objective way possible: don't buy Hinderer products. About all you can do.

When I read this I couldn't help but think about the law in Arizona I think about it being unconditional for businesses to not serve homosexuals on religious grounds. We have so much govt. that an independent business apparently CANT decide whom they sell to anymore.

 

[Rolex John]

Perhaps. Don't think he needs the perception or the "credibility" though. The knives speak for themselves.

The mystique/myth that Hinderer knives are first and foremost a tool for military/LEOs/First Responders adds perceived value - it's large part of the success of the brand.

Sometimes the customer isn't always right. I've seen far more people praise RHK customer service than not.

I've seen far too many people complaining about poor manners and treatment from Rick's staff - Rob in particular.

 

[Rolex John]

Good of you to come, John. Look forward to your posts. Seems you outed yourself. Oh well.

I was never not "out" - perhaps anonymity was the intention of others, but never mine. I stand by what I wrote.

 

[mag1]

I think it is a good move for Hinderer not to make an over production of XM's. Maybe they can, maybe they can't. I do not know.
Demand for the knives would diminish from where it is now. Everyone would own a hinderer for $385, its a no brainer.
Secondary prices would drop even more.
If it was my business, I would want it ran just as the Hinderer team runs it.
Wonder what would happen if Hinderer limited even more of the customs. The prices would go crazy.
I always felt the $550 custom XM was a steal at the lotteries. I have been seeing fewer in the last year.
Now they are in the $700's I think. If I am a winner at the Hinderer lottery table, I want a custom if they are there. And this time I am keeping it. I have only 2 left.
So to the original question of this thread. There are many reasons, but number one is the money. Nothing wrong with making a profit if the buyer wants to spend the money.

 

[MRaymond]

I am not sure the speculation about Hinderer purposely keeping production levels low is even close to accurate. They are producing MANY more knives than they were a couple years ago and still cannot keep up. The demand still FAR outweighs supply. Also, people are claiming a lot of $600-$700 prices for hinderer's on the forums... that isn't true anymore, unless it comes with ano'd hardware or extra scales or something. You can get a plain jane production with stock g10 and hardware for less than $550 pretty regularly. The increased supply is driving down prices in the secondary market but it hasn't caught up with demand yet..obviously.

 

[DrFish]

I am not sure the speculation about Hinderer purposely keeping production levels low is even close to accurate. They are producing MANY more knives than they were a couple years ago and still cannot keep up. The demand still FAR outweighs supply. Also, people are claiming a lot of $600-$700 prices for hinderer's on the forums... that isn't true anymore, unless it comes with ano'd hardware or extra scales or something. You can get a plain jane production with stock g10 and hardware for less than $550 pretty regularly. The increased supply is driving down prices in the secondary market but it hasn't caught up with demand yet..obviously.

Exactly. If demand far outstrips supply, then what possible gain is there from restricting supply? It's not going to make them more money. Selling knives makes them money. Every knife that gets flipped and sold on the secondary market instead of bought new from them is a lost sale.

 

[RDA]

This sure is some thread with quite a number of fallacies and inaccuracies but I guess I wouldn't expect anything different no sooner than I would expect Rolex John to change his spots. The negative comments on the Internet from a few bitter people will never be indicative of the great customer service that Rick Hinderer Knives provides, the quality products Rick Hinderer Knives produces or the great knives that Rick Hinderer designs.

There is obviously a lot of good discussion as well, too bad it isn't always conspicuous. Here are a few facts about Rick Hinderer Knives:

• The company has produced more knives every year since the XM debuted eight years ago.
• The company has not raised the price of their production knives ($385 XM-18 and $550 XM-24) since they were introduced.
• The company does not control the secondary market or pricing contrary to popular belief.
• The company does sell knives direct to the public (and not just MIL/LEO/Fire/EMT/EMS) at their standard pricing via their forum offerings, social media offerings, holiday offers, and knife shows. Every year more knives had been made available to the general public.

It is amusing that so many "arm chair quarterbacks" believe they know better how to run Rick Hinderer Knives than Rick Hinderer. It costs significant money to invest in new buildings and equipment to increase production. Then you have to find and hire qualified machinists to run this new equipment (and all the joys that accompanies hiring and managing more people). Rick Hinderer Knives has been doing this yet people here still believe they know better. I would imagine if any of you would like to loan Rick Hinderer Knives $1,000,000 to increase production faster than he has been investing in his own business, they might be willing to take you up on it if you are willing to accept typical small business loan terms.

These arguments are about as amusing as all the criticism I have seen of the gun/ammunition industry. Think you know better how to make a tactical knife (or ammunition) and want to invest everything you have into proving it? Then please do it. Last I looked, the knife industry (not unlike the gun/ammunition industry) has been growing rapidly.

Disclaimer: I don't speak for Rick Hinderer Knives, I am not a paid representative, the opinions expressed above are my own based on my experience and observations.

 

[John_0917]

I see very few actually trash the knife. I see more than a few people take issue with how Hinderer and company treat people, as well as their business practices.

I actually read through your review when I was seriously looking into getting an XM-24, the review was overall very positive...then I read into the experiences not directly related to the knife...