Why is 13C26 better?

AG Russell how did you determine what hardness to heat-treat your AUS 8 and ATS blades to on your FeatherLites? Since this thread is becoming about how hard to make a blade I think it would be very interesting to hear the opinion of a successful designer, and how they did it.
 
db said:
AG Russell how did you determine what hardness to heat-treat your AUS 8 and ATS blades to on your FeatherLites? Since this thread is becoming about how hard to make a blade I think it would be very interesting to hear the opinion of a successful designer, and how they did it.
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Folders are easy, you go for the max usable hardness. AUS8= 57-59 Rc and ATS or 154 = 59-61 Rc.

With fixed blades it takes a great deal more judgement. After you take into consideration the way you expect the knife to be used then you place more attention to what the market expects a steel to be hardened to. You cannot force your judgement on your customer when he thinks that he knows better than you.
 
Cliff, I wasn't judging AUS4 harshly when I said that it could be the best choice for the average idiot. Supporting the needs of the average idiot is challenging. I think that is why some makers opt for lower hardness blades. Having the money to buy a custom knife doesn't make you wise or a sophisticated user.
 
Jeff, I just think the "idiot" label is a bit confusing. Fisk for example sets his personal blades at 52 HRC.

The AUS series steels are actually of much higher potential than most people think, they are usually just given low grade heat treatments.

-Cliff
 
Wouldn't it be great if the large-volume knife makers spent more for heat treats instead of spending on flashy steels? 1095 with a great HT would probably outshine the common s30v blade.
 
Jeff's original wording could certainly be argued with, if one wanted to.

I agree with the general idea though. A relatively low-quality blade, whether that be from the steel or the heat treating, can appear to be really good to someone who has never known anything better. They could be comparing it to a "gas station knife" or cheap table cutlery. That would really be ignorance, not idiocy.

Therefore, the fact that a lot of people don't complain about the quality of a knife does not mean there aren't a lot of ways it could be better.
 
Carl64 said:
A relatively low-quality blade, whether that be from the steel or the heat treating, can appear to be really good to someone who has never known anything better. They could be comparing it to a "gas station knife" or cheap table cutlery. That would really be ignorance, not idiocy.
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This happens no a fairly regular basis, few reviews or endorsements actually reference a baseline. The following types of statement :

"I have used R. J. Martin's knives and they are super-sharp."

is very common however totally meaningless and contributes nothing aside from hype. However :

"R.J. Martin's knives are much sharper intially than Hartsfield's. They cut through leather with far less force and leave a much smoother surface."

Is fairly well defined and useful comparison.

Therefore, the fact that a lot of people don't complain about the quality of a knife does not mean there aren't a lot of ways it could be better.
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Obviously, if a person never had a problem with any knife, or a ever critized any steel (they currently worked with) then their positive support is obviously meaningless as they support everything.

-Cliff
 
You are not an idiot for preferring a tougher/softer steel, but commonly idiots are better served by knives that are tougher. I have been happy with modified bayonets that were probably around 50 RC.
 
I would agree with that, those steels really have a poor reputation though which really isn't justified potential wise. Just consider all the similar carbon/hardness low alloy steels. None of them have such a labeling.

-Cliff
 
Uhggg. This thread would be so valuable if it was void of all the of drama one has to wade through just to extrapolate the info.

I have some "Newbian" questions.
Firstly, A. J. Russel, are you really actually "A. J Russel?" (!)

I combed this thread looking for info on the characteristics of VG10, a material in my newly acquired SOG Tomcat 3.0. The knife is aesthetically pleasing, finished fairly well, over priced, but ahhh, what the hell- I just plain liked it. It's built like a tank, has great (apparent) edge geometry (hollow ground) despite a 4mm thick blade, and shaved my arm right out of the box. I have yet to 'endurance' test out the edge.

What is VG10 best suited for?

Thanks all for your time.
 
SterlingHammer said:
Uhggg. This thread would be so valuable if it was void of all the of drama one has to wade through just to extrapolate the info.

Firstly, A. J. Russel, are you really actually "A. J Russel?" (!)

What is VG10 best suited for?

Thanks all for your time.
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Welcome to the kitchen. Lots of testosterone and ego in here.

He is.

I like VG10 for EDC pocket knives. I find that it
takes a very fine edge when I sharpen it
holds that edge for a goodly long time,
has pretty fair corrosion resistance. I've read of others that have seen some staining, I have not.
holds up to my rougher cutting chores that are not just slicing and push cutting, ones that apply stress at a 90° angle from the edge.

I think VG10 would also make a good skinning blade, but I have not tried it myself.

Knarf
 
We are talking AG Russell here, aka "The Godfather of Quality Mail Order Knives". He has had a friendly connection here for years. For example if you wanted to try a VG10 blade as a skinner I would suggest you look at an AG Russell Deer Hunter with a VG-10 blade. It is designed thin and sharp for serious skinning performance. AG solicited our input at Bladeforums when he was determining what new alloys to use in his Deer Hunter. He started making them in VG10 and D2 after that input. He has provided samples of the Deer Hunter in AUS8, VG10 and D2 to Cliff Stamp for a nice apples to apples comparison. Read Cliff's review to get an idea of how some steels compare.
http://www.agrussell.com/knives/by_...es/a_g_russell_deer_hunter_with_d2_blade.html

http://www.cutleryscience.com/reviews/deerhunters.html
 
Great!
-Then I'm definitely at the right place to learn. ;)
Never thought I would ever be able to converse with the likes of Mr. Russell.
Gawd I love the Internet!
(I apologize for misspelling your name. Great start on my part. :rolleyes: )
 
I went to Academy Sports today because I knew they carried the Kershaw Storm.

The good news is they DO print the hardness and steel on the package. On the FRONT of the package too, in recognition of the fact that it is actually information that matters, not hidden on the back.

The bad news is it says the hardness is 57-59, not 59-60. It has been a while since the start of this thread, so maybe they changed back. They might also just have really old stock there.

57-59 is not bad for $28.??, but it's not what I was hoping for. I passed.
 
Carl64, the cards for the clam packaging have not been updated, so unless it was old stock, the steel was 59-60 Rc. Sorry for the confusion.
 
Carl64 said:
57-59 is not bad for $28.??, but it's not what I was hoping for. I passed.
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Buy it, get it reground and rehardened, cost about 25-50$ extra (half/half). That is a really nice steel, I would like to see Krein or Landes do a collaboration with Spyderco with that steel. Maybe both, Landes does full flat usually and Krein nice deep hollows.

For perspective, Landes will regrind the PRIMARY when the edge THICKENs to 0.010" after use/sharpening because the cutting ability is too low. Not joking, those are actual numbers. Compare this to the production thickness on the knives mentioned here which can be ~0.030", heavy wood splitter level.

I would actually like to see some people come out with 420HC knives with optimal heat treatments and grinds. Never going to happen of course as this steel has been destroyed as a cutting steel due to improper use, but it would be nice as it is so cheap to buy and work.

How about a knife for < $25 which easily outcuts most high end customs and is much faster to resharpen, is more corrosion and chip resistant?

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Buy it, get it reground and rehardened, cost about 25-50$ extra (half/half). That is a really nice steel, I would like to see Krein or Landes do a collaboration with Spyderco with that steel. Maybe both, Landes does full flat usually and Krein nice deep hollows.
-Cliff
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If he has Landes do it, it will add about $20.00 to the cost in SHIPPING to Germany.

So...you have a $30.00 knife, $25-$50 in regrind work, and maybe $20.00 in shipping=$75.00-$100.00 for a knife that will never again be worth $30.00 on the aftermarket....FYI.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Thomas W said:
Nothing like having to re-live the world according to Cliff. Thanks Ryan.
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I'm glad the thread is back as I find it very educational. Thomas W, Kershaw customer service told me the Leeks were not going to be released in 13C26 until the 440A was used up - sometime in August. I was told that a blade stamp of July 07 was the signal for 13C26. Are they out yet?

Thanks for all you input to BF.

Buzz
 
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