Why is Spyderco so paranoid about automatic knives?

This discussion does seem to be deteriorating. Sorry 'bout that.

Thanx to those that have tried to explain. We appreciate.

I guess any discussion about autos is ok, from spring tension to edge thickness. However, when discussing Spyderco's distribution methods of a federally controlled product, on a public forum, I'm sure you can see why we must respond the way we do.

Magpie,

if our moderator's words offended you, please accept my apology. She is following policy. I don't know how other auto manufacturers handle their public discussion on distribution, but we must do what works for us.

Wunderbar,

Of course freedom of speech is always there, but it is not in Spyderco's best interest to tell you to break any laws.

Your kind understanding is appreciated.

sal

Sal, I appreciate your contribution and understand your position. I now realize I should have given a different name to this thread and instead of singling out Spyderco I should have been more generic. It is just that the switchblade law is a bad law (IIRC, it dates back to the '50s or '60s, as a reaction to movies like "King Creole" and "On the Waterfront", back when street gangs did not have Uzis and had to make do with cheap switchblades) that unfairly targets businesses for making products that people are actually allowed to buy in most of the country, a law that most LEOs do not enforce because they know it is BS; I think it is just terribly unfair.
 
Everything you said is true---but it ignores the interstate transportation issues under Federal Law. How did those autos enter the state when it's illegal to transport them across state lines except for LEO or military?

That's the reason my only autos are made by Dalton: he manufactures them here in Kentucky. No Federal transport issues, and I make sure I never take them across state lines.

I always thought a dealer with a FFL could order them and resell them as the law allows. I always see high grade autos for sale in firearms shops.
I've bought Benchmade Autos out of a gun shop in Louisville and I've seen many auto's for sale at flea markets. So I suppose it's not really a crime that is enforced strongly anyway, as the flea market dealers don't even have FFL's.
 
I always thought a dealer with a FFL could order them and resell them as the law allows. I always see high grade autos for sale in firearms shops.
I've bought Benchmade Autos out of a gun shop in Louisville and I've seen many auto's for sale at flea markets. So I suppose it's not really a crime that is enforced strongly anyway, as the flea market dealers don't even have FFL's.

It just depends on the state. In Florida you could buy them at gas stations or in malls.
 
I suppose it must be legal to ship them to certain people because online dealers have them in stock and for sale. Some only to Law enforcement or Military personal, but many others will sell them to the public as well.
 
It is just that the switchblade law is a bad law (IIRC, it dates back to the '50s or '60s, as a reaction to movies like "King Creole" and "On the Waterfront", back when street gangs did not have Uzis and had to make do with cheap switchblades) that unfairly targets businesses for making products that people are actually allowed to buy in most of the country, a law that most LEOs do not enforce because they know it is BS; I think it is just terribly unfair.

I think that you are squarely on target with your assessment. It was a knee jerk reaction on par with cop killer bullets, evil features on assault weapons, and having to take your shoes off at the airport.
Why invest time in solving the actual problem, when you can whip something up overnight and then stand in front of a camera and say LOOK WHAT DID FOR YOU.

I never saw the need for a Spydie auto myself, people either get real skittish or flap on about how impressive it is, when I show them my Spydie Police and how quick it can be brought into play. I always thought of autos as an intimidation tool, but then again I have both my hands, and am not hanging from my chute in a tree with a broken collar bone.

Chuck
 
I wasn't in any way condoning breaking the law but...Spyderco can say anything they want to about possession and sales of their autos but in the real world anyone can get them.
It's only a matter of law, though, isn't it? Is an automatic knife any deadlier than a non-automatic knife? If one is going to misuse a knife, as in using it as a weapon of crime or assault, one is no more or less morally objectionable than another.

Most of us don't hang around seedy bars and engage in knife fights. We can, however, read about it (any book by Marc "Animal" MacYoung), and it becomes readily apparent that bad guys don't play by the rules; neither do most bad asses use automatic knives. Fighting fair is only something that happens in movies and the most dangerous knives are those that are already deployed. In many cases they're fixed blades and they're concealed. Many street guys wouldn't sweat an automatic knife because of the legal implications if they're searched and, more importantly, the automatic knives don't offer any substantial advantage.

Laws against these knives came about, not because they were widely used among gangs and street fighters, but because they were widely used among gangs and street fighters in the movies. I have switchblades and enjoy playing with them, but they're not great knives, and certainly not practical. The automatic knives that are available today are better made, they are reliable, but they're also more expensive. As to being more dangerous, well, that fantasy only resides in the heads of politicians who don't know any better.
 
Freedom to talk about auto availability and sheeple laws that prohibit them is freedom of speech.

Not when that that forum is owned and operated by Spyderco. It then becomes a privilege. They can prohibit any discussion that involves the breaking of laws. The same holds true here at BFC. Spark owns this forum and can run it as he sees fit regardless of your Constitutional rights.
 
1) Thanks to Sal Glesser for calming this discussion down.

2) Please do not refer to other forums without the utmost discretion. We will not tolerate cross-forum bashing. It might be better to refer simply to the ideas expressed than to include mention of the place.

3) Please do not refer to moderators without the utmost discretion. Guess why I might be sensitive to the implications of this. Personally belittling anyone, let alone a moderator, because you disagree with their opinion, is wrong in itself

4) Freedom of speech is a right enshrined in our Constitution which protects citizens from prior restraint on their public expression by the Federal government. What you express online does not enjoy the same guarantee but is controlled by the rules set out by the provider of that online venue.

5) Please do not use what we know about each other personally to override our responses to what they say. It may be difficult to separate the person from the profession, but if they do not explicitly claim expertise, don't mock them for what they do.

6) This is one of the regular important questions related to our knife ownership and use. Whether it's switchblades or slipjoints, we are under legal restraints and public scrutiny. Let's not rip each other up while exploring the best ways to enjoy our rights.
 
I always thought a dealer with a FFL could order them and resell them as the law allows. I always see high grade autos for sale in firearms shops.
I've bought Benchmade Autos out of a gun shop in Louisville and I've seen many auto's for sale at flea markets. So I suppose it's not really a crime that is enforced strongly anyway, as the flea market dealers don't even have FFL's.

The key phrase there is AS THE LAW ALLOWS. The law doesn't allow them to be in Kentucky in the first place unless they were transported for resale to LEO or military, if they were here before 1958, or if they were made here. FFL doesn't have anything to do with it IMO.

I've seen all kinds of brands of autos for sale in shops and at gun shows here, but that doesn't make them legal. The only saving grace (as I understand it) is that someone else committed the crime of crossing state lines with them. Is possessing them a crime? I'm not certain, but I have no desire to find out.

Yes, it's not enforced all that strongly, but I don't want to pulled over with a Benchmade in my pocket and be the test case.
 
I think that if you buy them from a legitimate dealer (and that you can prove it with a receipt) and live in a State were they are legal, you are not breaking any laws. This is why you can buy an automatic Benchmade directly at the factory in oregon or a California legal (sub 2") auto from Protech in California.
 
The key phrase there is AS THE LAW ALLOWS. The law doesn't allow them to be in Kentucky in the first place unless they were transported for resale to LEO or military, if they were here before 1958, or if they were made here. FFL doesn't have anything to do with it IMO.

I've seen all kinds of brands of autos for sale in shops and at gun shows here, but that doesn't make them legal. The only saving grace (as I understand it) is that someone else committed the crime of crossing state lines with them. Is possessing them a crime? I'm not certain, but I have no desire to find out.

Yes, it's not enforced all that strongly, but I don't want to pulled over with a Benchmade in my pocket and be the test case.

It's my understanding autos are legal in Ky. They are classed as a deadly weapon and legal to carry openly, same as a firearm and legal to carry concealed with a CCDW permit. In fact my police officer instructor told me while taking my written examination for the CCDW permit, this is indeed correct.
 
It's my understanding autos are legal in Ky. They are classed as a deadly weapon and legal to carry openly, same as a firearm and legal to carry concealed with a CCDW permit. In fact my police officer instructor told me while taking my written examination for the CCDW permit, this is indeed correct.

Yes, that is my understanding as well. I have a CCW and I sometimes carry an auto on my off side---but I carry a Kentucky made Dalton.

Federal law trumps state law and the prohibition about importing autos is an Federal law. So, I guess what that means is if you happen to be arrested carrying an auto made out of state then you will have to be prosecuted in Federal Court rather than Circuit Court.

The state CCW law makes the presumption that you have an auto obtained by lawful means, but Federal laws make that (nearly) impossible to do. Federal law makes no exception for state laws permitting ownership or for CCW. This is just one of those strange gray areas in the law where something is legal under one set of laws but impossible under another.

Please, if I'm wrong about the Federal Law, someone set me straight. But I don't think I am.

On a semi-related note: I used to like Spyderco knives because of their design and quality manufacture, but more and more I'm liking them just because of the quality of the company owner.
 
Yes, that is my understanding as well. I have a CCW and I sometimes carry an auto on my off side---but I carry a Kentucky made Dalton.

Federal law trumps state law and the prohibition about importing autos is an Federal law. So, I guess what that means is if you happen to be arrested carrying an auto made out of state then you will have to be prosecuted in Federal Court rather than Circuit Court.

The state CCW law makes the presumption that you have an auto obtained by lawful means, but Federal laws make that (nearly) impossible to do. Federal law makes no exception for state laws permitting ownership or for CCW. This is just one of those strange gray areas in the law where something is legal under one set of laws but impossible under another.

Please, if I'm wrong about the Federal Law, someone set me straight. But I don't think I am.

On a semi-related note: I used to like Spyderco knives because of their design and quality manufacture, but more and more I'm liking them just because of the quality of the company owner.
Double up on that. When people ask why I pay so much for a knife, I give them many reasons, but I say that I have actually talked to the owner, hear the owner weigh in on issues, and genuinely admire the guy. People get weirded out by discussions of blade steels, bolsters, designs, but their eyes go widest when I tell them that; from surprise and understanding. I really believe in using the power of economics to support good institutions. Hence, my g10 police, purchased about a month ago.
Zero
 
Autos are nice, but why give people the ammo needed to further restrict knife ownership? Like it or not, public perceptions affect our privilege to carry knives. If the masses think of an object as evil, it will become illegal. I say, don't fuel further restrictions by publicly using any knife that people find evil. Keep the auto's for professionals, handicapped people, and at home in collections. Showing them in public can only harm knife knuts. I applaud Spydercos strict policy on autos.

I'm sorry but this is a terrible attitude to have. Every day the world gets closer and closer to becoming Atlas Shrugged:

""Did you really think we want those laws observed?" said Dr. Ferris. "We want them to be broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against... We're after power and we mean it... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced or objectively interpreted – and you create a nation of law-breakers – and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."
 
elkins, I would disagree with your view, first here is the law ( less the ballistic knife lanauage to save space):

United States Code
TITLE 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE
CHAPTER 29 - MANUFACTURE, TRANSPORTATION, OR DISTRIBUTION OF SWITCHBLADE KNIVES


Section 1241. Definitions

As used in this chapter -
(a) The term ''interstate commerce'' means commerce between any
State, Territory, possession of the United States, or the District
of Columbia, and any place outside thereof.
(b) The term ''switchblade knife'' means any knife having a blade
which opens automatically -
(1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the
handle of the knife, or
(2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both.



Section 1242. Introduction, manufacture for introduction, transportation or distribution in interstate commerce; penalty

Whoever knowingly introduces, or manufactures for introduction,
into interstate commerce, or transports or distributes in
interstate commerce, any switchblade knife, shall be fined not more
than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.



Section 1243. Manufacture, sale, or possession within specific jurisdictions; penalty

Whoever, within any Territory or possession of the United States,
within Indian country (as defined in section 1151 of title 18), or
within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the
United States (as defined in section 7 of title 18), manufactures,
sells, or possesses any switchblade knife, shall be fined not more
than $2,000 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.



Section 1244. Exceptions

Sections 1242 and 1243 of this title shall not apply to -
(1) any common carrier or contract carrier, with respect to any
switchblade knife shipped, transported, or delivered for shipment
in interstate commerce in the ordinary course of business;
(2) the manufacture, sale, transportation, distribution,
possession, or introduction into interstate commerce, of
switchblade knives pursuant to contract with the Armed Forces;
(3) the Armed Forces or any member or employee thereof acting
in the performance of his duty; or
(4) the possession, and transportation upon his person, of any
switchblade knife with a blade three inches or less in length by
any individual who has only one arm.
The introduction into interstate commerce is of course illegal, but the possession and sale is only limited to certain federal jurisdictions which states are not part of. I understand that you feel you are buying the product which was delivered as the result of a crime, but the only way you could be found guilty of this would be if you consipired to commit the crime of interstate commerce with the seller. Could someone ordering from an out of state dealer be so accused? Maybe. Never seen or heard of it, and I would suggest that in the 20 or so cases this law has been enforced it was only done so after many warnings and the customer base was not effected. In Sal's case there were letters sent to the customers ( I Believe).
 
Forgot to mention, that if you are really worried about compliance with the law then get rid of all your folders locking and not that were made out of state since this is the defintion of a switchblades from above:

b) The term ''switchblade knife'' means any knife having a blade
which opens automatically -
(1) by hand pressure applied to a button or other device in the
handle of the knife, or
(2) by operation of inertia, gravity, or both

Sooooo....Any folding knife that can be flicked open (99% can be) are switchblades even if they don't lock open ( e requirement in NY to be considered a gravity knife)....
 
Ahem. "In the handle of the knife" doesn't mean "on the blade of the knife." No, folders are not illegal.
 
operation of inertia, gravity, or both

no button required.....READ carefully please. Sal got in trouble for Balisongs due to this definition.....
 
Oh i'm sure 96% of all stabbings happen with $500 Microtech Marfione customs.

Not the one to twelve inch kitchen knives which can be found in every supermarket for maybe $4
 
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