Why that grind if......

[Shotgun]

Just curious, as I wasn't able to find this on any of the major retail sites, or any of the reviews I've found so far. Also, all of the video "reviews" i saw didn't have clear enough point down shots to tell just by looking at it. But is that schrade actually a hollow grind?

One reason I ask, is that my Bk2 showed almost identical coating wear patterns (before I stripped that portion of the blade), and it is a saber grind.

It's the way every coated blade wears when you baton. Right where the wood is being wedged. The grind only acts on the first few taps. Then you'll notice the blade doesn't even touch the wood. Kinda sad to see Boris batoning though. He said it was the best grind for a chopper axe. Batoning works with every grind.

 

[Boris74]

It's the way every coated blade wears when you baton. Right where the wood is being wedged. The grind only acts on the first few taps. Then you'll notice the blade doesn't even touch the wood. Kinda sad to see Boris batoning though. He said it was the best grind for a chopper axe. Batoning works with every grind.

Why isn't this flat ground blade doing it then? Might be because it doesn't have that slight hollow touch to it on this blade.

Like ocnLogan and I discussed, some flat grinds have a touch of hollowness to them. When they are for real flat, it don't happen. Look at how much more coating wear there is right at the edge from the friction I was talking about compared to my hollow grind that does not have as much right at the edge. Less friction from less contact.

 

[ocnLogan]

Why isn't this flat ground blade doing it then? Might be because it doesn't have that slight hollow touch to it on this blade.

Like ocnLogan and I discussed, some flat grinds have a touch of hollowness to them. When they are for real flat, it don't happen. Look at how much more coating wear there is right at the edge from the friction I was talking about compared to my hollow grind that does not have as much right at the edge. Less friction from less contact.

Ok, I'm starting to feel like I'm in the middle of something now...

To be fair, there are LOTS of variables that could change how coatings come off. But yes, I'll agree that "most" knives that are used for batoning loose their coating just barely above the primary edge, as well as at the shoulders of the grind (for hollow/scandi/saber grinds), and at the spine for FFG's. However, for the above BK7, the coating loss from before might not be from batoning at all, but instead be from chopping (because the shoulders of the knife never go through the media). I personally can't tell from just a single photo (although it does look like what I remember of my BK9 before I took off the coating).

Also, the type of wood, and the "consistency" of the wood can have big impacts as well (knots scrape off WAY more coating than straight grain, forcing the knife to touch where it normally doesn't, etc). Because wood is elastic (it "gives") its possible for wood to bow towards or away from any knife going through it, so sometimes even a hollow ground knife can touch there/loose coating, while other times flat grinds will sail right through.

Anyway, grinds are just one element of knife design, and any one of them can be put to good use (and not just the obvious ones). For instance, sometimes hollow grinds are used on thicker blades in an attempt to get the geometry more in line with what a knife of a thinner stock would have, while having a thick spine for battoning or more overall mass for chopping.

Anyway, I think I'm going to probably say the OP's question was answered, and just leave this thread alone for a while now...

Cheers .

 

[druid189]

I find it amusing that you're attempting to condescend to his experience when it's actually the same as your own. You literally have no call to speak authoritatively on...well, anything. SAVE US OBI WAN, YOU'RE OUR ONLY HOPE!!

I was going to say that but....since he is the know it all, I didn't have to.

I'm done because anything more from Edgar Cayce falls into this category:

 

[samclaymore]

IMHO, it's a Camilius BK7 with a better flat grind. Looks grayish and is stamped too. Could be the material and random wear though.

To the op on the original topic. I would say you don't lose much, if you put the same type of edge on all of your knives. (Razors excluded, strop only) They all dull and have to be resharpened at some point. And your preference will win 9 out of 10 times. So good steel with proper heat treat & correct edge angle will serve you better. Than strop vs. V grind.

Now while you may have a preference. Don't be shy about trying different edges. I figured out That I hate stroping most of my edges. But my Kit Carson secondary has a convex edge. And pairs nicely with a V grind Buck 110. You will learn what works best for you.

 

[Gaston444]

Different grinds are for different tasks.

Doesn't really strike me as a useful distinction. Different edge angles and edge thicknesses are for different tasks.

In general a 0.5 mm (0.020") edge thickness is strong enough for any task a large fixed blade can do, but it is within range of damage if you are basically intent on stupidly applying large lateral loads... Almost all fixed blade knives are thus typically ground way too thick at the edge. This does not apply to convex edge fixed blades, which appear easier to manufacture to a thinner edge on the more forgiving slack belt... The trouble is maintaining that advantage when re-sharpening a rounded edge by hand... Basically you end up flattening that roundness that was so easily applied in the shop on a slack belt grinder (that stropping stuff on leather always amuses me, as if shaving hair meant "sharp": Good Lord...). Still, thin convex edges are way better than dealing with a V-edge that is too thick, so even though convex edges are pointless production-side "theorizing" (with no real advantages, at least for edges as thin as knives have), they still are much nicer to have than the thick crap they would otherwise do on a V-edge, so I'm quite happy to see them... (Randall Knives are just about the only ones that do a proper V-grind that is thin, with none of that convex nonsense: I suppose that is what you pay extra for...)

I you limit the size of the blade to around 1.5 inches wide, and under 9 inches in length, the distal taper flat (or full convex) grind is a capable but somewhat second-rate wood chopping grind... An untapered spine hollow grind is better at or under that blade size, the harder and smaller the diameter of the wood, the more so.

Low saber is poor at doing everything, except not getting stuck... Try most TOPS and you'll see... I don't think there ever was a purpose to a low saber grind, other than having the spine equally sharp... And when they don't, you really have to wonder what they were thinking of... When designing the KA-BAR for instance...

Gaston

 

[druid189]

I find it amusing that you're attempting to condescend to his experience when it's actually the same as your own. You literally have no call to speak authoritatively on...well, anything. SAVE US OBI WAN, YOU'RE OUR ONLY HOPE!!

Doesn't really strike me as a useful distinction. Different edge angles and edge thicknesses are for different tasks.

In general a 0.5 mm (0.020") edge thickness is strong enough for any task a large fixed blade can do, but it is within range of damage if you are basically intent on stupidly applying large lateral loads... Almost all fixed blade knives are thus typically ground way too thick at the edge. This does not apply to convex edge fixed blades, which appear easier to manufacture to a thinner edge on the more forgiving slack belt... The trouble is maintaining that advantage when re-sharpening a rounded edge by hand... Basically you end up flattening that roundness that was so easily applied in the shop on a slack belt grinder (that stropping stuff on leather always amuses me, as if shaving hair meant "sharp": Good Lord...). Still, thin convex edges are way better than dealing with a V-edge that is too thick, so even though convex edges are pointless production-side "theorizing" (with no real advantages, at least for edges as thin as knives have), they still are much nicer to have than the thick crap they would otherwise do on a V-edge, so I'm quite happy to see them... (Randall Knives are just about the only ones that do a proper V-grind that is thin, with none of that convex nonsense: I suppose that is what you pay extra for...)

I you limit the size of the blade to around 1.5 inches wide, and under 9 inches in length, the distal taper flat (or full convex) grind is a capable but somewhat second-rate wood chopping grind... An untapered spine hollow grind is better at or under that blade size, the harder and smaller the diameter of the wood, the more so.

Low saber is poor at doing everything, except not getting stuck... Try most TOPS and you'll see... I don't think there ever was a purpose to a low saber grind, other than having the spine equally sharp... And when they don't, you really have to wonder what they were thinking of... When designing the KA-BAR for instance...

Gaston

..........wait for it...........

 

[AntDog]

..........wait for it...........

Exaaaaaactly... Suddenly a rabid henchman appears...
Boris: you wouldn't, by any chance, be a big fan of the Spec Plus Marine Raider would you?
And Gaston: huh? I'm still deciphering, so bear with me.

 

[USS Worden 352]

Am i missing something or do i have no clue what am talking about?

Yes.

 

[USS Worden 352]

Doesn't really strike me as a useful distinction. Different edge angles and edge thicknesses are for different tasks.

In general a 0.5 mm (0.020") edge thickness is strong enough for any task a large fixed blade can do, but it is within range of damage if you are basically intent on stupidly applying large lateral loads... Almost all fixed blade knives are thus typically ground way too thick at the edge. This does not apply to convex edge fixed blades, which appear easier to manufacture to a thinner edge on the more forgiving slack belt... The trouble is maintaining that advantage when re-sharpening a rounded edge by hand... Basically you end up flattening that roundness that was so easily applied in the shop on a slack belt grinder (that stropping stuff on leather always amuses me, as if shaving hair meant "sharp": Good Lord...). Still, thin convex edges are way better than dealing with a V-edge that is too thick, so even though convex edges are pointless production-side "theorizing" (with no real advantages, at least for edges as thin as knives have), they still are much nicer to have than the thick crap they would otherwise do on a V-edge, so I'm quite happy to see them... (Randall Knives are just about the only ones that do a proper V-grind that is thin, with none of that convex nonsense: I suppose that is what you pay extra for...)

I you limit the size of the blade to around 1.5 inches wide, and under 9 inches in length, the distal taper flat (or full convex) grind is a capable but somewhat second-rate wood chopping grind... An untapered spine hollow grind is better at or under that blade size, the harder and smaller the diameter of the wood, the more so.

Low saber is poor at doing everything, except not getting stuck... Try most TOPS and you'll see... I don't think there ever was a purpose to a low saber grind, other than having the spine equally sharp... And when they don't, you really have to wonder what they were thinking of... When designing the KA-BAR for instance...

Gaston

Say what?

 

[Shotgun]

Like ocnLogan and I discussed, some flat grinds have a touch of hollowness to them. When they are for real flat, it don't happen. Look at how much more coating wear there is right at the edge from the friction I was talking about compared to my hollow grind that does not have as much right at the edge. Less friction from less contact.

Seems to me you're attributing the performance you're getting to a hollow grind when really the gain is from a thin edge. If you're using the edges as they come from the factory, I can see how a hollow grind would be better. Factory edges on these knives are ALWAYS too thick IMO. I have a scrapyard 711 I split wood with. After getting it back from a custom knife maker who thinned the edge, it was a totally different animal.

 

[Boris74]

Seems to me you're attributing the performance you're getting to a hollow grind when really the gain is from a thin edge.

That's the whole reason behind a hollow grind. There's only one way to get that performance, and that's with the thin edge, the hollow grind does that the best. I've known that before I had the Internet to tell me so.

 

[marcinek]

That's the whole reason behind a hollow grind. There's only one way to get that performance, and that's with the thin edge, the hollow grind does that the best. I've known that before I had the Internet to tell me so.

Yes Shotgun. Stop saying stuff that you have only read about on the internet.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Kinda makes me feel good I can actually display to the OP what I am talking about. I'd love to hear why you use what you do, how much you use it, what kind of wood and even the grind would be nice to know. Instead all you do is try to reinforce as best you can (not doing to well at either buddy) I am wrong, because you said so.

I love the 1095 in that blade too. Perfect heat treat on it. Holds the edge fantastic. Just took about 3 minutes of my time to restore it to razor sharp. In my opinion, it's the best super steel being made today. Tear up that opinion right there, your one track you're wrong posts are getting boring. But tie it into the OP so we keep it on track.

1095 is a simple Spring Steel. There might have been someone that used that silly marketing hype term, Super Steel about 80-100 years ago for 1095?
1095 and the other 10XX series work well for chopping knives because they are more likely to deform than chip

That was good for a laugh.

Thickness behind the edge--and how far past that it remains rather thin--will dictate how deep penetration is with each chop.
A flat grind or a hollow grind can do that; hollow grinds aren't all very thin...the Wilson Combat Camp Knife I traded to my father is rather thick.

A convex grind on thin stock would bite deep as well...there's no magick to it, just physics.

Agreed, there are many factors at play here.

Doesn't really strike me as a useful distinction. Different edge angles and edge thicknesses are for different tasks.

In general a 0.5 mm (0.020") edge thickness is strong enough for any task a large fixed blade can do, but it is within range of damage if you are basically intent on stupidly applying large lateral loads... Almost all fixed blade knives are thus typically ground way too thick at the edge. This does not apply to convex edge fixed blades, which appear easier to manufacture to a thinner edge on the more forgiving slack belt... The trouble is maintaining that advantage when re-sharpening a rounded edge by hand... Basically you end up flattening that roundness that was so easily applied in the shop on a slack belt grinder (that stropping stuff on leather always amuses me, as if shaving hair meant "sharp": Good Lord...). Still, thin convex edges are way better than dealing with a V-edge that is too thick, so even though convex edges are pointless production-side "theorizing" (with no real advantages, at least for edges as thin as knives have), they still are much nicer to have than the thick crap they would otherwise do on a V-edge, so I'm quite happy to see them... (Randall Knives are just about the only ones that do a proper V-grind that is thin, with none of that convex nonsense: I suppose that is what you pay extra for...)

I you limit the size of the blade to around 1.5 inches wide, and under 9 inches in length, the distal taper flat (or full convex) grind is a capable but somewhat second-rate wood chopping grind... An untapered spine hollow grind is better at or under that blade size, the harder and smaller the diameter of the wood, the more so.

Low saber is poor at doing everything, except not getting stuck... Try most TOPS and you'll see... I don't think there ever was a purpose to a low saber grind, other than having the spine equally sharp... And when they don't, you really have to wonder what they were thinking of... When designing the KA-BAR for instance...

Gaston

Gaston,
Whoa! :numbness: Did they just legalize it where you live or something?? A big bowl of Blueberry Cush Surprise or whatever cool name they call it these days? LOL

I don't even know where to start with all of that? Peace and have fun!

 

[PURPLEDC]

That's the whole reason behind a hollow grind. There's only one way to get that performance, and that's with the thin edge, the hollow grind does that the best. I've known that before I had the Internet to tell me so.

Google modesty. See the interwebs are good for something.

 

[Boris74]

Google modesty. See the interwebs are good for something.

Some antonyms for that word are brave, proud, self-confident, assured, bold, unashamed and a few others. Them are more fitting for me.

 

[marcinek]

Some antonyms for that word are brave, proud, self-confident, assured, bold, unashamed and a few others. Them are more fitting for me.

Really Boris...those aren't the words we are thinking.

 

[Shotgun]

That's the whole reason behind a hollow grind. There's only one way to get that performance, and that's with the thin edge, the hollow grind does that the best. I've known that before I had the Internet to tell me so.

True. A hollow grind is good at that. IME a convexed grind that's ground thin gives you the same performance in that regard while taking advantage of the convexed grinds other attributes. But maybe I just read that from the interwebs.

 

[Boris74]

True. A hollow grind is good at that. IME a convexed grind that's ground thin gives you the same performance in that regard while taking advantage of the convexed grinds other attributes. But maybe I just read that from the interwebs.

Oh man, such wisdom! As if I didn't know you can not free hand sharpen without putting a convex final edge on the blade. Maybe that's why my hollow grind preference works so well at so many tasks. You're so smart, you just learned me something.

Why stop at full convex when you can have both.

 

[Shotgun]

Oh man, such wisdom! As if I didn't know you can not free hand sharpen without putting a convex final edge on the blade. Maybe that's why my hollow grind preference works so well at so many tasks. You're so smart, you just learned me something.

Why stop at full convex when you can have both.

What?