Why the Low Prices in the Knifemakers For Sale Forum?

[Rick Marchand]

Wow,just wow...hobbyist's & part time makers are hurting the industry?
Shame on them for having a hobby & selling cutting tools for a reasonable price.

You've misunderstood or I have misspoken. Please read my post above.

I was speaking purely from a "selling" standpoint. A hobbyist selling to support their hobby and a full-time maker selling to support a family have different motivations, naturally. And there is no argument that a hobbyist at the skill level of a "Bruce Bump", who is okay with just breaking even will be undercutting a full-time maker who would like to turn a profit at the same level of craftsmanship.

Does that make sense or am I digging a deeper hole....

 

[Walker Smith]

It's a tough market for no-named makers I think.

 

[Walker Smith]

Many would argue that selling at a loss or zero gain and thereby undercutting prices is not "reasonable".

It's not . It ruins the market imo.
It ruins the makers' name in the long run as well imo.
It'll be hard to shake off that cheap knives you sold years later unless your name really takes off.

 

[Salem Straub]

Many would argue that selling at a loss or zero gain and thereby undercutting prices is not "reasonable".

I think that's true. I have noticed the race to the bottom in pricing, and it's unfortunate. Everyone's gonna do what they're gonna do mostly, all I can see to do about it is to try to rise above that level of competition- don't make that kind of knife. It gets boring anyway. Diversify, make unique things.

 

[mykel m]

Many would argue that selling at a loss or zero gain and thereby undercutting prices is not "reasonable".

Sorry,you are right,I didn't realize what forum this discussion was in before posting.
I look at the knife industry from a blue collar buyers/users point of view,not a makers.
My apologies to the makers that are being hurt by folks wanting to save a buck.

 

[Josh Mason]

This reminds me of the other thread about making knives full time. Even though the thread is mildly discouraging, I cannot see that being a full time maker is a universal struggle/failure. I also cannot blanket the economy of the world into one truth.

With that being said, A maker living in the mountains of eastern Kentucky is going to have a different result than someone living in Hawaii, California, or New York. Even if the materials are the same price nationwide, cost of living is drastically different in these areas. If you're seeing strange prices on the forums, consider where the maker lives.

Low price is relative.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

$20 will buy you an equalize entry into this market, where hobby/newb ht steel = professional KM ht steel - via Peters; Bos; etc.. consequences of being commoditized and chosen for the reason of ht efficiency.

Values come from design and construction qualities, where many of these attributes are easily borrow. Decoration/fancy attributes won't do much in differentiating your professional products vs me-play products. It doesn't take much to attain adequate qualities on drill/sand/buff/stitch/etc , again low barrier to entry. If price competition driven by time, oh well - this is a race to the bottom.

I am new at KM - my perception/romanticize view, ht is 1/2 heart/soul of a custom knife. Custom knife buyers are well informed & classy, so well performance custom soul knives will always command/earn premium prices.

 

[Karl B. Andersen]

how do they select from the vast (and growing) number of custom makers? What is the comparison point? how many $700 knives must they buy to know the one they bought is the one they want (and not just some overpriced kit knife)?

That's where knife shows come in.
If you're a customer, or one in need of a knife, seeing a guy sitting at a $500.00 table, spending $150.00 a night for a hotel room and traveling 500+ miles to even get to the show, you will have a bit of respect and elevated understanding of WHO this guy is and what his knives look and feel like.
You'll be able to share ideas and ask him face to face questions about his knife making philosophy.
Now, when you go back home and see one of his knives "for sale" on a forum such as this for $700.00 and another similar knife for the same price from a guy you have only seen on the WWW..., whose knife are you going to buy?

That is your "comparison point".

 

[gytheran]

If the economy isn't doing overly well and very few people have a ton of disposable income available, what do you think the demand is for knives costing $600-1k? I know you guys feel it's perfectly reasonable to ask those prices(and I'm not disagreeing), but in reality it is a lot of money for a knife and if the market can't bear it, you'll have a hard time selling them. From a purely business point of view... $100 for materials for a fixed-bladed knife seems rather expensive. Unless you have a massive fan base that cannot get enough of your blades, I don't see how one could make a living on a product that has such high manufacturing costs.

 

[mykel m]

You've misunderstood or I have misspoken. Please read my post above.

I was speaking purely from a "selling" standpoint. A hobbyist selling to support their hobby and a full-time maker selling to support a family have different motivations, naturally. And there is no argument that a hobbyist at the skill level of a "Bruce Bump", who is okay with just breaking even will be undercutting a full-time maker who would like to turn a profit at the same level of craftsmanship.

Does that make sense or am I digging a deeper hole....

Sorry,you are right,I didn't realize what forum this discussion was in before posting.
I look at the knife industry from a blue collar buyers/users point of view,not a makers.
My apologies to the makers that are being hurt by folks wanting to save a buck.

Sorry Rick,I was posting as you were replying,I do see a makers point about being undercut.

I'm off to work, I am down to 20 hour weeks now so for me it's a moot point as I won't be buying any custom knives for a while.

 

[jawilder]

In this discussion we need to remember that the internet is both a blessing and a curse. The blessing is that anyone can advertise and sell their knives to a whole world of potential buyers. The curse is that all of these potential buyers have the option of buying from thousands of different makers. That means that there is more competition now in the custom market than ever. With competition comes lower prices. That's part of supply and demand.

We should also keep in mind that some people buy knives to put in a safe and some buy them to be used. Very few customers will spend hundreds on a Damascus/ivory knife and then take it camping. So keep in mind that different knives are used for different things, and come with different prices.

Also, we (the ShopTalk crew), are mostly to blame for the cheap prices because of the advice we often give to new makers. I can't tell you how many times I've read the suggestion that new makers only sell their knives for the cost of materials and if they get that, then they're doing good. The problem is, that we rarely go back in a year or two and say, "OK, it's time to really start charging more." At the same time I believe that a maker can price himself out of the market. If your prices are so high that your knives are no longer selling then it's time to reevaluate your business model. If you can't sell a knife with Damascus, ivory, exhibit grade wood, etc., under a certain price, then decide what you can sell for that certain price.

We've all seen this from time to time. Sure, most people would love to have one of Wheeler's fighters, but few people have an extra grand laying around to buy one. But most people do have the money to buy one of his skeleton knives, which I would guess that he sells a lot of, and at a reasonable price.

There is no doubt that everyone wants to make more money in their profession. Everyone wishes their salary was higher. But the pains of doing what you love, such as being a fulltime knifemaker is that your livelihood is completely based on other people's disposable income. We are artists, and there is a reason that the phrase, "starving artist" exists. The fact of the matter is that we can either complain that no one wants to buy my knives for what I think they're worth - and go hungry, or I can study the market and build knives according to what the market will bare.

You should never lose money on a knife. If you do, then it's not because of the market, but because your costs are too high. For example, I am about to send about 80 blades to Peters for HT. They will end up costing me about $2 each. Compare that to the guy who sends one at a time and pays $25 to HT that one blade. That is $22 in profit that he has just lost. This same principle applies across the board. It is simple business: Study the market, make what sells, then control your costs so that you can make more profit.

 

[elementfe]

I'm actually not that sure why hobbyists feel such a need to sell what they make.

I have several hobbies (metals are my job) that I cheerfully give away the fruits of- I rarely charge for music, for instance, just a few gigs a year. I'm sure there's a musician somewhere who's sore about that, but I don't feel that I have a "product" that's really that special at this time. If I'm asked to play I play and often get a bit of cash for it. If I were to advertise things would be different- I'd be offering an entertaining, technically excellent musical product.

I personally haven't wanted to sell on forums until I feel that everything I offer is solid journeyman quality, and then it'll be coming from an established shop and backed by a meaningful guarantee... but that's my standards for myself, everyone else can and will do what suits them.

My experience on Etsy has been interesting- search on there for "handmade kitchen knife" and you'll find page after page of mass produced mediocrity. This in a marketplace that claims to be all about crafted, handmade quality!
The experienced sellers tell me, though, not to stress about that- they've found that buyers are fairly alert and really are looking for a crafted item with a story behind it- knowing something about the maker is often one of the biggest criteria for choosing what to buy.

So, a lot of what's posted, though probably nice usable tools, just doesn't have the context that a lot of potential buyers look at when they consider where to put their knife budget.

 

[12345678910]

I don't have any statistics, but to me it seems a stretch to say that we can fundamentally shift the market place by making people aware that they can spend a LOT more to get custom knives, when they are currently satisfied by the factory models they buy at Bed, Bath and Beyond or Sur La Table. Sure, there are undoubtedly some who, if made aware of superior quality, would switch to custom knives. But there's another factor to consider... how do they select from the vast (and growing) number of custom makers? What is the comparison point? how many $700 knives must they buy to know the one they bought is the one they want (and not just some overpriced kit knife)?

Yes, I believe it is possible to shift the market... but the shift would likely be very difficult and might require something of the makers as well.

I think some are doing it

Look at Bob Kramer, pro produced video was the key.
In some cases actual quality is much less important than media coverage.

Average women now know they all need $2,000 Coach purses

Kitchen renos are on TV in the tens of thousands

Cooking shows are all showing women how to be gourmet chefs

All you need to do is make it a must have kitchen accessory where the high price is a sign of quality, taste and sophistication rather than you paid too much.

 

[tryppyr]

I think some are doing it

Look at Bob Kramer, pro produced video was the key.
In some cases actual quality is much less important than media coverage.

Average women now know they all need $2,000 Coach purses

Kitchen renos are on TV in the tens of thousands

Cooking shows are all showing women how to be gourmet chefs

All you need to do is make it a must have kitchen accessory where the high price is a sign of quality, taste and sophistication rather than you paid too much.

Your point is well taken, even if your numbers are fictitious.

However, I return to my question.. in a field of one-offs and custom makers, how does a customer distinguish the good from the great? There is no objective comparison available.

There is a store in Kirkland called Epicurean Edge that sells high end knives (mostly kitchen knives, but also some other varieties). A lot of custom makers sell there. They have a strong online presence as well. But when I'm in the shop there is really no way (apart from price and prettiness) to distinguish between two knives of similar purpose. You're buying a look because you have no way to know the quality/qualities.

So in such a market, how do you convince someone to buy YOUR custom knife instead of a cheaper one that looks similar with a lower price tag? How do custom makers establish the quality of their brand in such a crowded market? How do they compete with factories that crank out knives by the tens of thousands?

- Greg

 

[Hawk45]

Being a hobbyist, I give quite a bit of what I make away, but sometimes I have guys that want to give me something to at least cover the cost of materials. If guys are working on their skill and don't have an endless budget, sometimes they sell items for what they have in them, not for profit. And most times, eat the hours put into them and only want to cover their actual materials cost. And on the other side, there are guys that want to buy items to actually use, not just the sit on a shelf and enjoy the art aspect. So So these guys may buy something not perfect as they know it's going to get banged up. Or a buyer may just like a design, even with it's imperfections. Other guys want a custom knife but don't have the big bucks to shell out for professional custom, so there are hobbyist options out there, without much if any markup. So there is a market for everything.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Being a hobbyist, I give quite a bit of what I make away, but sometimes I have guys that want to give me something to at least cover the cost of materials. If guys are working on their skill and don't have an endless budget, sometimes they sell items for what they have in them, not for profit. And most times, eat the hours put into them and only want to cover their actual materials cost. And on the other side, there are guys that want to buy items to actually use, not just the sit on a shelf and enjoy the art aspect. So So these guys may buy something not perfect as they know it's going to get banged up. Or a buyer may just like a design, even with it's imperfections. Other guys want a custom knife but don't have the big bucks to shell out for professional custom, so there are hobbyist options out there, without much if any markup. So there is a market for everything.

Exactly... it is a complex issue and I think everyone has valid points from their individual perspective.

 

[rustysocket]

That's not what I'm talking about, bud... the more makers, the merrier. It is the confusion it creates when someone who is happy just covering costs to fuel his hobby VASTLY undercuts full-time makers trying to make a living. I don't think it is done with malicious intent but the result is the same. Many buyers don't make the distinction between the hobbyist and a career maker. They just see the work, the price and make a decision... why wouldn't they? You will find this happens in most industries to some extent but particularly in the arts and trades.

Keep on making brother, just don't sell yourself short!:thumbup:

Respectfully, I am going to offer a different point of view. Established artists with a following will create a demand for their particular pieces, in turn with time they will command prices that are commensurate with their exclusivity. For a new artist, it's almost a chicken vs egg concept. Unless their pieces become available they will not become known. Cost of material, to some degree is irrelevant, unless we are talking about precious metals and salvage values.

No right or wrong answer, just a different perspective.

 

[Mike Gesualdo]

While I do think some people vastly under-price their knives... I think a name has a lot more to do with it than some people realize, especially when it comes to selling in this forum. I see a lot of makers with HUGE followings complaining that most hobbyists are underselling themselves, but I don't know if I think it's as true as they say. There's a lot more competition on the internet for everything, especially hand-made items, than there was 3, 5, 10+ years ago. There are tons of new names popping up around here every week, but not a lot leaving... so some guys HAVE to price their knives dirt cheap to even think about making a sale.

For me, I found the "solution" to be targeting new/different markets. Being where I'm at... in a big city with very few knife folk... is both a blessing and a curse. It's a blessing in that it's a completely different market that I have free reign over prices in, but it's a curse in that I have to market my knives to people who have never even heard of a knifemaker before, generally cower at the word "knife," and who would laugh at the idea of spending more than $50 on a knife. That said, I think my prices would be considered on par/fair (or maybe a tad high) around here if you covered up all of the names, but I don't think I'd have success selling them at the same prices on the sale section here. I just don't think I have the name for it.

On a side note, I think it'd be an interesting "test" to take one of the people with a large following here, slapping an alias on a knife instead of their own, and attempting to sell it as a truly unknown maker. Any takers?

 

[Kentucky]

With that being said, A maker living in the mountains of eastern Kentucky is going to have a different result than someone living in Hawaii, California, or New York.
Low price is relative.

I see your familiar with my part of the world..Here in the deep dark hollars of Eastern,Ky $100 for a knife is ridiculous and astronomical..I pay $531 a month mortgage payment on two houses and 60 acres if that tells you what the cost of living is..
I am(mostly was due to injury) a blacksmith..Id just as soon be forging a hook to hang my feed bucket on as making a knife. I was never really in it for the money. You have to imagine I was raised in one of the poorest regions of the US in a house with springwater, one channel(ladder line to the top of the mountain) and a party line phone..I was also raised in a woodworking furniture making shop..A shop that Ill add had a homemade table saw, a homemade lath and a homemade planer...See what Im getting at? Daddy said "its fine to make money, just don't try to make it all off one person"..Its been hard to get that out of my head..
Lets just be honest for a minute. We have a pretty "decently" equipped knife making shop(better blacksmith shop)..We have the tools to make just a good of a knife as most anyone..Proper heat treating equipment etc..We could make knife "A" while another maker makes knife "B"..Other maker is well known, does plenty of youtube videos and all that..He asks $350 while we ask $175..Same knife mind you but guess who's will sell first while the other sets????? Don't tell me it dosnt happen, we all know better..Way back when I did sell knives I never counted my labor, I did it for the craft..Lets face it, if you sell a slab handled knife for $175 your doing pretty good to start with because we all know what the material costs are one a 9" long piece of 1095 and a pair of micarta scales...Ive never begrudged anyone getting as much as they possibly can for a knife..great for them but I never could or tried for that matter..I was never a salesman, never advertised, was never on youtube. To be honest I just never cared about any of that..I just wanted to make a few things and not go in the hole with my hobby..Lisa can worry about all that stuff now.

 

[tryppyr]

On a side note, I think it'd be an interesting "test" to take one of the people with a large following here, slapping an alias on a knife instead of their own, and attempting to sell it as a truly unknown maker. Any takers?

I don't know about you but I probably wouldn't have any trouble identifying a Wheeler or Wildertools knife even if it had a bogus label on it. Some folks just have a distinctive style.