Why the Low Prices in the Knifemakers For Sale Forum?

Kentucky said:
I see your familiar with my part of the world.
Click to expand...

I grew up not too far from where you are... Knoxville, TN. We did have running water... even air conditioning. But we knew the value of a dollar, and as you said, some lessons are hard to get out of your head no matter how long you live.
 
Karl B. Andersen said:
That's where knife shows come in. ;)
If you're a customer, or one in need of a knife, seeing a guy sitting at a $500.00 table, spending $150.00 a night for a hotel room and traveling 500+ miles to even get to the show, you will have a bit of respect and elevated understanding of WHO this guy is and what his knives look and feel like.
You'll be able to share ideas and ask him face to face questions about his knife making philosophy.
Now, when you go back home and see one of his knives "for sale" on a forum such as this for $700.00 and another similar knife for the same price from a guy you have only seen on the WWW..., whose knife are you going to buy?

That is your "comparison point".
Click to expand...


I agree, and I don't care how many pictures you take and how pretty they are (how honest are they?) you can't tell refinement of construction or fit and finish from photos online. I've seen photos of knives that Coop or some other pro took, that looked flawless, yet had issues I'd never let out of the shop when I saw them in person.


It's that final 10% that commands 90% of the price IMHO. Of course I'll also add, that no matter how nice it is, a $200 knife, is a $200 knife, even if the quality is on par with a $2,000 knife. The guy that wants a $2,000 knife, will never look twice at the $200 one, and he'd certainly never feel comfortable buying it.


Know your market. If you're getting undercut at $200, figure out how to make a $400 knife, and don't let yourself get desperate enough to start undercutting yourself.


The business of knifemaking, has very little to do with the craft of knifemaking, you need both skills to survive or thrive.
 
Here's my take.

There is a huge race to the bottom going on right now that is very bad for the knife industry. A knife that sells for $250 today probably would have sold for $350 10-20 ago and thats in 10 years ago's dollars.

I think this is happening mainly for 2 reasons

1.) The economy is complete crap and no one has any money. I honestly don't know how guys afford the luxury of a custom knife. I'm so poor I couldn't even buy one of my own blades if I'm being honest. My heat bill was $279 last month for keeping the house 63 degrees and I live in the South.

2.) The huge influx of hobbyist makers. I'm only a 4 year member of this forum but I've never seen such a huge influx of people making and selling knives that are not full time.

Now with that said I think if the economy were better hobbyists would be GOOD for us. In my opinion the custom knife market is completely and utterly untapped. Have you ever gone to a bar and told someone you make knives for a living and before you know it 5 or 6 guys are wanting to buy one of your blades? Every man in the world is a potential customer. I'm guessing that out of all the knife owners in america only 2-5% own quality production knives and only 1% own customs. The market is completely untapped and I think whenever a new maker pops up they bring with them several of their friends/ family/ community members etc... into the custom knife market with them. A guy might get a custom knife from his buddy the hobbyist maker and think its amazing so he starts looking on here for his next fix.

In short I think the custom knife market is untapped and there will always be more buyers than the makers can keep up with. However this trend is overshadowed by the giant sink hole that is the American economy.

And with this in mind I'm quitting full time making net year and going to law school--where I will probably face the exact same set of problems I have as a maker but with $100K of debt to carry around. And not to start a political debate but I think student loan debt is crushing the economy and is probably the reason why alot of us makers struggle. Instead of spending $600 on a custom knife, a guy with a degree has to give that money to Sallie Mae every single month for years while not making any more money that he would have without that degree 20-30 years ago.
 
Last edited:
tryppyr said:
I don't know about you but I probably wouldn't have any trouble identifying a Wheeler or Wildertools knife even if it had a bogus label on it. Some folks just have a distinctive style.
Click to expand...

Very true, a friend of mine told me that he surprised a guy by identifying his Cas knife at a glance. My friend had never heard of Claudio Cas until I showed him some pictures from here on BF. But there's no mistaking a Cas.
Style is also a big part of why certain makers can charge extra "for their name."
It's not just a name but a reputation and style that only comes after years of work.

I hope to start selling some of my blades within the next year and I will buy a maker's membership and sell here. I'll be selling cheap to begin but I'll try to be mindful that it's in my best interest to not undercut the other makers or myself when my quality and reputation improve.
I don't think that the new guys selling $100-300 knives are really hurting the guys selling $700-1500+ knives because the people who buy the cheaper knives probably aren't going to buy the really expensive knives... yet.
If you look at it differently, these "entry level" custom knives might help attract guys who aren't ready to spend tons of money on a custom. First you buy a cheap bushcraft knife from a new maker, then you see a really fine hunter or edc from an established maker for a few bucks more, before you know it you're saving up to have one of the big names make you a custom order.
 
What do you do when you make that knife you are proud enough of to put on the Exchange as your first listing but it doesn't sell and you need to recoup some money? Let's say this knife SHOULD sell at $200 but doesn't. This knife cuts well and has a good enough fit & finish that you feel honest enough at your asking price. So the knife doesn't sale and gets bumped into obscurity. Do you keep relisting or lower the price to get some money flowing to get more grinding belts?

I can make a convexed edge, soft drawn spine hunting knife that will shame a production knife, but a lot of local people will still buy a Buck first because its cheaper.
 
Some interesting factoids I found while googling this topic, The knife industry in the U.S. is worth 5.9 billion, and that's just the companies that do tax returns ;0) I can just about imagine the amount of cash transactions the occur at sites like this that go unreported.

I would think that the steady rise in new makers is directly tied to the unemployment rate going up (2006 2007), a fella sitting at home, no job, runs across this site and says "hey I can do that" the ones I find most humorous are the guys attempting to set up full blown knife shops in the spare bedroom of their apartments, so much for that security deposit hey? LOL

I have to believe there is a fair amount of narcissism involved in a $1000 + knife purchase


http://www.kniferights.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=80&Itemid=29
 
I'm a newer maker so I've only developed the barest understanding of how I should price my knives. This is my primary income. I live very frugally, and my fiance makes a significant income. She enjoys having me at home and seeing each other so much that our disparity in income is irrelevant.

I think that knifemaking is often surrounded by extenuating circumstances. There are myriad reasons I'm doing this, and financial benefit is nearly last in line.

I often feel that my work is worth at least a bit more than I charge, but every time I try to creep up in price I hit a wall. I also have trouble going over 300 on small and medium knives because that seems to be the high average for the user market. On new custom commissions, I've topped out at 500 but generally come in between 3 and 4. My average sale is about $200, and it seems hard to break away from that.
 
HallHandmade said:
I'm a newer maker so I've only developed the barest understanding of how I should price my knives. This is my primary income. I live very frugally, and my fiance makes a significant income. She enjoys having me at home and seeing each other so much that our disparity in income is irrelevant.

I think that knifemaking is often surrounded by extenuating circumstances. There are myriad reasons I'm doing this, and financial benefit is nearly last in line.

I often feel that my work is worth at least a bit more than I charge, but every time I try to creep up in price I hit a wall. I also have trouble going over 300 on small and medium knives because that seems to be the high average for the user market. On new custom commissions, I've topped out at 500 but generally come in between 3 and 4. My average sale is about $200, and it seems hard to break away from that.
Click to expand...

Ian,

You're a really talented maker with a distinct style. I'd say give it a year for the word to get out and you will see your prices go up. Being honest, your knives are very, very underpriced. Of all the makers on this forum I think what you offer is as good as it can possibly get for the price. You're knives should be worth double what you are selling them for. Every time you post a blade I'm dumbfounded to see that it hasn't sold within 5 minutes. Especially with the sheaths you offer.
 
I think that the makers mark is by far the most valuable part of a knife. If they don't know your name, you're not going to get over a certain amount for your knife.
 
I'm probably spoiled. I've only been browsing the "for sale" forum for a few mo's and when I see the prices of some production knives I always wonder why folks don't buy handmade. Now, I don't buy "art" knives. I buy users and I try to carry all of them from time to time. But if the "users" went to 200-300 then I wouldn't be buying. It's the market. I guess. Many times selling a bunch at a lower margin is better than selling a few at a high margin. Especially if you are trying to establish a reputation.

One maker, in particular, don't know if it's alright to say who, his bowies bring what I would consider Big Money. I looked at his feedback from 05-06 and his knives bring better than twice what they did then. And they rarely come up.
 
I'm new to the knife making community and haven't tried to sell any knives, but I'm a young artist and I've been selling my ceramic and cast bronze work for a few years. One big problem I've run into is that many people who are used to getting mass-produced EVERYTHING from Wal-Mart think that handmade, non-factory items are lower quality and should cost the same or less. This obviously isn't a fact but many people told me my thrown porcelain bowls were too expensive because they could get cheaper ones from a store that would all match each other exactly. Same with jewelry and sculpture: "I can buy something at Target for half that."
This attitude has been the biggest harm to me trying to make a living as a craftsman.
 
I think things with the market will be self correcting.
Something my boss used to say was "The guys with the lowest prices are the first to go out of business".
A big part of getting a good price for your product is educating your customers.
Showing them what makes your knife different than a factory knife helps them to justify the money they spend.

With products that are a want but not need, in times when the economy is tough, it is the lower priced items that don't sell.
The lower income people have to make every dollar count. But the people with money will still buy what they want. Not because it is the lowest price but because they can get what they want. With cars people brag about what a good deal they got. But with knives, art & jewelry they brag about how valuable the item is.
 
lastbrunneng said:
I'm new to the knife making community and haven't tried to sell any knives, but I'm a young artist and I've been selling my ceramic and cast bronze work for a few years. One big problem I've run into is that many people who are used to getting mass-produced EVERYTHING from Wal-Mart think that handmade, non-factory items are lower quality and should cost the same or less. This obviously isn't a fact but many people told me my thrown porcelain bowls were too expensive because they could get cheaper ones from a store that would all match each other exactly. Same with jewelry and sculpture: "I can buy something at Target for half that."
This attitude has been the biggest harm to me trying to make a living as a craftsman.
Click to expand...
My family have been craftsman since before I was born. In fact since before I dad was born..This is the same problem we all run into friend..I remember me and family taking 6' handmade porch swings and hand woven bark bottom(bark that we hand stripped of hickory trees ourselves) chairs to the flea market and having people hagle over a $35 price tag(of course that was a long time ago) Complaining all the while I could get it for "X" amount at Maloneys..
 
I am no doubt complicit in this. The tool I market has kept many makers in the knife making pool that would have normally dropped out and sold the grinder. Then again, I feel by keeping more people in the mix, it expands the talent pool and other great artist and craftsman may be the result. Missing out on another Bruce Bump or Don Fogg would be sinful.

I agree with many in thinking its the pool of buyers and not the volume of makers. There is not as much disposable income in the middle class as 15 years ago. The money is not there anymore. We all have our priorities and for many of us those priorities have changed. I now make tools for the industry and few knives; so in this way I am doing my part as well.
 
lastbrunneng said:
I'm new to the knife making community and haven't tried to sell any knives, but I'm a young artist and I've been selling my ceramic and cast bronze work for a few years. One big problem I've run into is that many people who are used to getting mass-produced EVERYTHING from Wal-Mart think that handmade, non-factory items are lower quality and should cost the same or less. This obviously isn't a fact but many people told me my thrown porcelain bowls were too expensive because they could get cheaper ones from a store that would all match each other exactly. Same with jewelry and sculpture: "I can buy something at Target for half that."
This attitude has been the biggest harm to me trying to make a living as a craftsman.
Click to expand...

This, and the fact that there is an absolute FLOOD of utter crap from Uzbekistan, Pakistan, India, China, Turkmenistan, etc etc etc. And from crap makers who throw an edge on mild steel and call it 'custom' and 'handmade' throwing this garbage on eBay and the like for 20x what it's worth. I think that alone has caused a massive cut in the number of buyers we WOULD have if that stuff wasn't out there.

I can count more than a few people who have tried to get into the custom buyer's world at a minimal (by true custom/handmade standards) price only to get burned by something that won't perform as well as a flea market Katana. Tell me that doesn't sour someone for quite a while.

I purposefully try to sell as low as I can so hopefully someone can take my knife, bet the ever-lovin dog poop out of it, dust it off and keep going asking where and from whom they can get another. I consciously weigh the pricepoint between wanting to gain, and retain these people to our world and not trying to screw a wage making knifemaker who does feed themselves from the craft by pricing too low.

I don't derive a true income from any of my fingers in this craft, but I do try to keep the shop lights on. This means I have to ask for more than materials obviously, but again, I don't want to step on any toes by undercutting either. To that end, I also only make a handful of knives a year so that I'm not butting in... I also, as does almost everyone I've met here, support other maker's work. I gain probably more pleasure guiding someone to make a purchase from a full-timer of a knife I know they will cherish than I often do selling one of my own.

I dunno, truth be told even the full-timers who have amassed a following and a true repertoire to support it, and ask the higher amounts for their work still don't hardly make minimum wage if they account for overhead...

-Eric
 
John Katt said:
Some interesting factoids I found while googling this topic, The knife industry in the U.S. is worth 5.9 billion...
Click to expand...

Well... sort of. That doesn't mean there are $5.9 billion worth of knives being sold...

KnifeRights said:
$986.87 Million Gross Revenues (2007) at manufacturer/importer level...
Click to expand...
And regardless, most of those are definitely not handmade in one- or two-man shops. We really are a drop in the bucket, and honestly it's a whole different ballgame. Trying to compete with Buck or Kershaw or Spyderco, much less overseas labor on price or marketing is a fool's errand.

John Katt said:
...a fella sitting at home, no job, runs across this site and says "hey I can do that".
Click to expand...

Yeah... those guys don't even count, really. Very few of the folks making those posts ever finish a knife, much less flood the market.
 
Im on my first two knives, but after all the time that I've put into these knives I would not sell them for pennies. I wouldn't try to sell them at all at this point obviously, but if I did I would value my time a lot more than just the simple cost of the knife.
 
We live in a free enterprise system. The law of supply and demand dictate what ever the market will bear.
The problem is a lot of people don't know what the threshold is in their industry and work below it. They're content eating Hamburger Helper without the meat. I look at some of the knives posted here and think WOW, that's a low price and it sells quickly. And then I see another priced high and a couple days later a repost at a discount and still no reply.

The cream always rises to the top.
 
paying ones dues
i remember when i had a hard time selling a hand sanded 7 inch kitchen knife. i had a few pass arounds and took al feedback to make myself better. all the time gaining reputation for not only taking my HT to max but also for beign able to do fullu custom work. i am now full time and woudl not even think about the pricing i had back i the day (10 years + ago )
 
james terrio said:
Well... sort of. That doesn't mean there are $5.9 billion worth of knives being sold...
Click to expand...

I figured as much, that's why I used "knife industry" in my post.

putting that aside though, here are some up to date statistics 2013 as opposed to 2006, it seems the knife industry has really slacked off in the last 7 years, only 4.88 billion in 2013, interesting that the page I found first is still using pre-crash numbers

http://www.akti.org/file_download/12

It almost feels like there is more money in the supply chain then actually making knives
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top