Why Use Carbon Steel?

Stuart, as you know "stainless" is bit of a misnomer in that even the REALLY corrosion resistant steels like H1 will corrode at SOME point. It is a question of how quickly and under what conditions.? Stain RESISTANT is a better term and AEB-L has a reputation of being one of the least stain resistant steels that is classified a "stainless" The very things that make it a great "slicer" steel also make it a big dodgy in that department. But that is relative. It is sure as hell stainless compared to that O1 blade you threw on the bench for a couple of days after grinding and dipping it in your slop bucket. ;)
samuraistuart said:
Well, I was wondering about this statement, understanding that Cr CAN get tied up in Cr carbides and thus sort of fall short of free Cr, but this is not the case with AEBL, because the carbon content is too low for much Cr carbide formation. But because the full amount of 13% Cr is NOT tied up, it is a stainless steel. (edit to add....I say "full" amount with the understanding of around 3% carbide in AEBL)
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Ha Ha! With all the ATP flakes at the bottom of the tank, it sure is resembling a "slop bucket"! Yes, very familiar with stain"less" doesn't mean stain"proof". But by martensitic stainless steel definition even, AEB-L falls easily within the category "stainless steel". Are there other stain"less" steels that offer more "stainlessness" than AEBL? For sure there are, lots of em! Alright then, back to my O1 that I threw on my bench, um hum.:thumbup:
 
AEB-L may be less desirable for those millions of folks who, even after being told not to do it and possibly having to deal with costly repairs after a handle rivet pops off, still insist on throwing their kitchen knives in the dishwasher. Hence the term "idiot resistant" ;)
samuraistuart said:
Ha Ha! With all the ATP flakes at the bottom of the tank, it sure is resembling a "slop bucket"! Yes, very familiar with stain"less" doesn't mean stain"proof". But by martensitic stainless steel definition even, AEB-L falls easily within the category "stainless steel". Are there other stain"less" steels that offer more "stainlessness" than AEBL? For sure there are, lots of em! Alright then, back to my O1 that I threw on my bench, um hum.:thumbup:
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If they're throwing them in dish washers, then I don't see it mattering too much what steel it is, especially when handle rivets pop off. Idiot resistant? that would be the highly sought after and elusive unobtanium.
 
No, that is the true definition of the term "idiot proof." :D
samuraistuart said:
If they're throwing them in dish washers, then I don't see it mattering too much what steel it is, especially when handle rivets pop off. Idiot resistant? that would be the highly sought after and elusive unobtanium.
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jdm61 said:
AEB-L may be less desirable for those millions of folks who, even after being told not to do it and possibly having to deal with costly repairs after a handle rivet pops off, still insist on throwing their kitchen knives in the dishwasher. Hence the term "idiot resistant" ;)
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Hey man, are you calling my mom, and wife, and my daughter an idiot? :mad:

Hell, we even put D2 in the dishwasher here. I gave up years go, just go with it... :D
 
samuraistuart said:
Well, I was wondering about this statement, understanding that Cr CAN get tied up in Cr carbides and thus sort of fall short of free Cr, but this is not the case with AEBL, because the carbon content is too low for much Cr carbide formation. But because the full amount of 13% Cr is NOT tied up, it is a stainless steel. (edit to add....I say "full" amount with the understanding of around 3% carbide in AEBL)
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I've hear it described as borderline, AEB-L That is. All I know is that for folks that have sense of how to care for kitchen cutlery, It works great, Stain-Less enough, I tell my customers that that it only takes a few seconds to soapy sponge off, rinse & towel dry my custom knives. Dishwashers void the handle warranty:)

This is also the time I suggest using a smooth, Diamond or Ceramic Butcher steel because they are warmed up from cooking instead of steeling their blades cold before they cook.

its a small thing, but I think it helps get a better more constant angle.
 
Nate, i was not really familiar with what people were talking about when the mentioned "rivet covers" on some of the Euro type knives until I saw where they had popped off some knives that my sister in law owns. This was after telling her for years to wash them by hand. Her response? Well, it doesn't really matter now since they have already come off. :D
Nathan the Machinist said:
Hey man, are you calling my mom, and wife, and my daughter an idiot? :mad:

Hell, we even put D2 in the dishwasher here. I gave up years go, just go with it... :D
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Rick Marchand said:
My preference for plain carbon steel is purely environmental. Carbon steel rusts and eventually goes back to the Earth. Stainless steel is an abomination, much like Styrofoam and plastic grocery bags, it does not decompose... removing vital elements from the natural cycle of life. Yes, brothers and sisters... Stainless steel removes the "stain" from "Sustainability". What we are left with is "suability"... which according to spellcheck, is not even a word... stainless ruins everything.
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You are just saying that because your beard wispered it to you. No judging from me. Some times my beard tells me things too!
 
skillgannon said:
For what its worth Bluntcut I appreciate the time you took.
I was told by a friend that the reason I cannot get answers off of some of the more tradition forums is that I am much to analytical and soulless. So thanks for great soulless info.

Something that I don't think has been discussed much is context off what is being cut. I have been carrying M4 folders for years now and every winter I buy oranges. It does piss me off a little bit that my non stainless super steel blade gets dulled by one of the most common task.
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give a look at 204P from car-tec i replaced my M4 edc folder with one in 204p and so far im really happy. i do need to get a hardness test on the blade but i wanted over 6 months use before findig out what my HT pulled form the steel. i think next time i will run it a bit hotter and make sure i get another point or so of hardness as i thing it can take it
 
Oh hey, is there a cure for too analytical malady? Appreciated :thumbup:

Citric acid actually can accelerates passivation, so make sense to use blade with higher Cr %. 14C28N is one of those with net-Cr (after ht) close to 13%, which is higher than most considered stainless steels today.

skillgannon said:
For what its worth Bluntcut I appreciate the time you took.
I was told by a friend that the reason I cannot get answers off of some of the more tradition forums is that I am much to analytical and soulless. So thanks for great soulless info.

Something that I don't think has been discussed much is context off what is being cut. I have been carrying M4 folders for years now and every winter I buy oranges. It does piss me off a little bit that my non stainless super steel blade gets dulled by one of the most common task.
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Good call, Butch! 204p/20cv/m390 net-Cr (after hardened) around 12%, which would help minimize the apex from corrode away by citric acid. LOL - keep in mind, the corrosion rate (for citric acide at ~0.25M) is less than 5mm/year on plain high carbon steel.

Have fun with ht... tinkering around with hotter would put more carbon in solution (therefore more free Cr) but watch out for bloated RA%. In this case, you still might have precip carbide coarsening even with cryo+secondary/high temper. Consequentially lower free Cr and toughness.

butcher_block said:
give a look at 204P from car-tec i replaced my M4 edc folder with one in 204p and so far im really happy. i do need to get a hardness test on the blade but i wanted over 6 months use before findig out what my HT pulled form the steel. i think next time i will run it a bit hotter and make sure i get another point or so of hardness as i thing it can take it
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Acknowledging others tried to lighten up this thread, unfortunately my analytical malady is terminal :p
 
i like that you bring up RA% and cryo. in my book the minute you get more allow then just carbon you should look into cryo to reduce RA. while not a big deal for O1 52100 and other slightly alloyed steels soon as you step in the SS or HSS in feel it mandatory or your leaving performance on the table
 
:thumbup:

Too high temp aust of O1;52100;W2;1095;etc can have 3-8% RA at room temp, so subzero and cryo would be helpful there too. IME, when carbon in solution is too excess than carbon can uptake by martensite matrix, cryo facilitates some conversion but RA% will be too high. e.g. aebl 2100+F aust, after cryo, hardness is less than 56rc. I think, beside alloy influence, huge grain + strong plate martensite induced high dislocation/strain, which dimensional wise prevent aust to mart conversion. Overtime, stabilized RA.

butcher_block said:
i like that you bring up RA% and cryo. in my book the minute you get more allow then just carbon you should look into cryo to reduce RA. while not a big deal for O1 52100 and other slightly alloyed steels soon as you step in the SS or HSS in feel it mandatory or your leaving performance on the table
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for sure you can pushe a little and cover with cryo but liek you said grain and carbide pooln g can get out of hands and defeat advantage of PM
 
DevinT said:
F1, F2, F3 were common tool steels back in the day. They are high carbon steels with 1.25% carbon and 1.5-3.5% tungsten. Some had additional small amounts of cr or mo. They have been replaced with high speed steels today.

The closest thing today is blue-super. Roman Landes lists it in the back of his book, Russ Andrews has used it in the past. I've never used it. Looks good on paper.

O7 is similar to F1.

Hoss
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Actually, the closest thing to F2 nowdays is... F2. There is a steel mill in Germany that still produces it (Ossenberg, their steel designation is SS511), but according to their website one has to order a whole ingot, if one does not come to some sort of better arrangement with them.
 
So, for out purposes, the question is who orders those ingots today, right?
Wolf_HR said:
Actually, the closest thing to F2 nowdays is... F2. There is a steel mill in Germany that still produces it (Ossenberg, their steel designation is SS511), but according to their website one has to order a whole ingot, if one does not come to some sort of better arrangement with them.
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Hoss, there was a post on the Fogg forum from like 2008 that says that All Metals Forge will do custom pours as small as 250 lbs for old recipes or customer custom orders. Not sure they will still do that , but it might be worth an e-mail.
 
Devin, they have a minimum order of 1400kg (cca 3000lb) but I guess they'd be willing to 'piggyback' a smaller smelt when they do a full sized order. So I presume one would be limited by their smallest ingot size which is 700kg (cca 1500lb)- with few people chipping in it would sound almost bearable.

Jdm- they specify on their site that they welcome inquiries about smaller quantities, so I guess they'd take care of that and do a bit of F2 extra on their next smelt.

P.S. We had a thread on the subject when I 'discovered' this steel ( http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1274301-AISI-F2-alloy-questions )
 
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