Why Use Carbon Steel?

[butcher_block]

just got a report on some XHP from CAR-TEC was happy to see that on the blade bevel after my 2x 400f 2 hours my numbers for Rc 63.5 with STD dev .12 will have have to see what my as quenchd numbers woudl have been (im having them check carbide size vs the HT they have on the data sheet)

 

[Don Hanson III]

No good reason to not use it until that medium sized mountain of W2 is gone.

Well ya see, I could have just as easily acquired a medium sized mountain of a stainless alloy, but didn't.

 

[Kentucky]

that's cool, ive seen 64.5 or so but not 65 but I haven't tested hem all either..Good numbers there..

Just took this picture of my aebl paring blade at tempered (not AQ) hardness. Recalling this thread - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-quot-paring-boning-knife?highlight=aebl+64rc
I stopped update this thread because lacked of interactions. I made a large batch of paring blades with AQ hardness 65rc, some hits 65.5rc (reading is average of 3 readings in 3 different places on the blade - tang, mid, tip). I tempered down to 64rc before post-ht grind the blade.

I agree that care must be taken when comparing steels and their designed for intended applications. However in this case, I just focus on matrix hardness. After all, matrix is the foundation (major component) of cutting tools.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

63.5rc@400F tempered is a point higher than datasheet - http://www.alphaknifesupply.com/Pictures/Info/Steel/CTSXHP-DS.pdf :thumbup:

So far (made & tested 2 blades @64rc), I am quite impressed by cts-xhp strength & toughness and a bonus stainless as well. I agree with others that xhp is a better D2 plus stainless. What am I going to do with my pile of D2 bars? I guess, I will cook up a few 64rc D2 blades - shooting for 80% performance of 64rc xhp. Summon magical metallurgy gods to render assistance (busting up D2 mondo ingot MCs) with D2 ht...

just got a report on some XHP from CAR-TEC was happy to see that on the blade bevel after my 2x 400f 2 hours my numbers for Rc 63.5 with STD dev .12 will have have to see what my as quenchd numbers woudl have been (im having them check carbide size vs the HT they have on the data sheet)

Although, I've made a large batch of aebl paring knives at 63-64rc working hardness. I am looking for way to produce aebl blade with working hardness at 64.5-65rc. If I succeeded, haha-sad batch of unsold aebl knives get new home = recycling bin.

that's cool, ive seen 64.5 or so but not 65 but I haven't tested hem all either..Good numbers there..

I use AQ or peak/max hrc as a pulse-check, sort of like first level QC. Ultimately, hitting +-1rc targeted hardness for intended-use is the gate keeper for shipping knives.

*** hands of beholder ***
Pardon, my exaggerated analogy for making a subjective point

MDF/Plywood vs African Blackwood, which one would make a better guiltar/clarinet/etc? I know, I know, it's AB because of its super fine grain, hard, dense, lacked of lumpy inclusions. A big part is something to do with resonance, I think

A proper ht low alloy carbon blade can have those similar attributes (fine grain, high rc, dense=no alloy padding in matrix and especially in grain boundaries, very fine carbides/fe3c). Hard to explain the cutting interactions (hence beholder and conjecture parts), but I prefer using 52100/w2 over aebl. Sure, aebl grain is fairly fine, plus low carbide volume & small carbide size but I think, Cr padded the matrix gives it stainless, thereby it doesn't sounds/feels as good in my hand.

YMMV/YOMV/YEMV.

 

[butcher_block]

the XHP data sheet specs min temper temp at 300f maybe on a test piece i can see what datasheet called for max hardness might be

 

[Rick Marchand]

My preference for plain carbon steel is purely environmental. Carbon steel rusts and eventually goes back to the Earth. Stainless steel is an abomination, much like Styrofoam and plastic grocery bags, it does not decompose... removing vital elements from the natural cycle of life. Yes, brothers and sisters... Stainless steel removes the "stain" from "Sustainability". What we are left with is "suability"... which according to spellcheck, is not even a word... stainless ruins everything.

 

[Brock Cutlery]

My preference for plain carbon steel is purely environmental. Carbon steel rusts and eventually goes back to the Earth. Stainless steel is an abomination, much like Styrofoam and plastic grocery bags, it does not decompose... removing vital elements from the natural cycle of life. Yes, brothers and sisters... Stainless steel removes the "stain" from "Sustainability". What we are left with is "suability"... which according to spellcheck, is not even a word... stainless ruins everything.

When you remove the stain, I think it's just a typo. It becomes usability. [/smartazz ]

 

[Rhinoknives1]

I started out using W2 and decided to switch to stainless shortly after. The decision was based largely on sharpening hunting knives for people and seeing them come in with blood, hair etc still visible on the blade the next fall. I thought to myself why make a perfectly good knife and sell it to someone who will not take care of it and then bad mouth me and my product when it rusts, when in fact it is their fault. It did not make sense to me.

I have made mostly culinary knives for a while and I prefer Stainless Steels such as 440C, CPM-S35VN and though not a true stainless, AEB-L For some of the same reasons Lo/Rez has mentioned, Along with when I started in my garage about three blocks from the Pacific Ocean and would grind any of the 10XX series steels I could literally watch the knife rust as I worked it on a rainy or humid day.

Most people where I live by the coast enjoy fine cutlery but aren't focused enough to keep a carbon steel Culinary knife wiped clean constantly and probably could not tell the diff in edge of one of the Super Carbon Steels mentioned,
But they can always tell the diff if it gets a bunch of rust spots on it cause someone left it wet in the sink.

There are several people here that have far more knowledge of the highest obtainable hardness, Shear strength, Cutting, Carbide size, etc I respect others knowledge.

My knowledge comes from making my knives, Having the stainless Hted by Paul Bos HT and using them myself, loaning them out to pro Chefs, Line cooks and just average folks and selling them for our livelihood for about the past 20 years.

My customers prefer stainless, Once in awhile I have a request for a Carbon steel Damascus Culinary knife and for some of my customers I'm happy to fill their desire.

I prefer stainless for use in my Kitchen, About the longest blade I make is 12" and I don't make swords and in my entire life, I have never had a need to cut a 1" free hanging rope or chop through a 2" x 4" ...

Each to his own! Fine what you like and use it!

 

[Brock Cutlery]

Well said Laurence.
As quirky as it is on the grinder, I've come to love AEB-L. It works very well for the knives I make.
That said, I love to read these exchanges. There is so much to learn from those with so much more knowledge and experience.

 

[Randydb]

My preference for plain carbon steel is purely environmental. Carbon steel rusts and eventually goes back to the Earth. Stainless steel is an abomination, much like Styrofoam and plastic grocery bags, it does not decompose... removing vital elements from the natural cycle of life. Yes, brothers and sisters... Stainless steel removes the "stain" from "Sustainability". What we are left with is "suability"... which according to spellcheck, is not even a word... stainless ruins everything.

Just teasinghere but if you are going for sustainability and environmental you should be making stone tools. Smaller footprint, don't need all that fossil fuel for the forge etc. Also, with your argument stainless might be better. Make one....use it until there is no steel left to sharpen. Hand down from generation to generation. Might need 2 carbons in that time! Really though, I love my carbon steel necker. So nice on so many levels.

 

[Gaston444]

You think adding chrome increases edge holding? Why do you think that? What do you think edge holding is?

Removing excessive chrome would be a good start

I think you've just demonstrated there is nothing to discuss with you.

For edge holding I'll refer you to the 31 year old Bernard Levine quote I posted, but I don't think you'll know who that is...

Gaston

 

[Rick Marchand]

I think you've just demonstrated there is nothing to discuss with you.

For edge holding I'll refer you to the 31 year old Bernard Levine quote I posted, but I don't think you'll know who that is...

Gaston

Nathan also pointed out several leading cutters in the industry... none of which are stainless. Bernard Levine is no slouch when is comes to knives but why aren't these vastly superior steels winning competitions?

Regardless of which side of the fence you are on, experience, critical thinking and broad research in the work of others is key. Nathan has been doing his own experiments as well as working with professional heat treaters. You have held fast to 30 yr old quotes and have yet to answer Nathan's question to you. Who is avoiding discussion? Are you familiar with the methods and parameters of Mr. Levine's testing? or just the results(Not that I am) But real world knife use doesn't seem to point to a landslide win for either side of the argument.

I think we are trying to find a winner between two opponents who fight in separate arenas.

I say, use what works, what is available and reasonable to you and let the cards fall where they may. If you are suggesting that there is some kind of knifeworld conspiracy to keep antiquated, inferior steel in the market, let me introduce another stainless product to you... a Tinfoil cap.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Well said, bud.:thumbup:

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I like stainless steel, I use it a lot. But I understand that stainless-ness comes with some compromise. I certainly wouldn't go around telling people it's better. And makers using carbon steel are somehow cheating their customers using an inferior product. <--- that's crazy

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

I think you've just demonstrated there is nothing to discuss with you.

For edge holding I'll refer you to the 31 year old Bernard Levine quote I posted, but I don't think you'll know who that is...

Gaston

Lol



You came in here and made some pretty weird statements.

Someone called you out on it *shrug*

 

[skillgannon]

For what its worth Bluntcut I appreciate the time you took.
I was told by a friend that the reason I cannot get answers off of some of the more tradition forums is that I am much to analytical and soulless. So thanks for great soulless info.

Something that I don't think has been discussed much is context off what is being cut. I have been carrying M4 folders for years now and every winter I buy oranges. It does piss me off a little bit that my non stainless super steel blade gets dulled by one of the most common task.

 

[samuraistuart]

"and though not a true stainless, AEB-L" ...... HUH?

 

[jdm61]

A 31 year old quote by a non-knifemaker whose is best known for valuing old knives? He wrote that when most of the "super steels" stainless and non-stainless alike, had not even been introduced to the knife making world and a number of OLD carbon steels were not really available to knifemakers anymore? Ever herd of CPM 10V?

I think you've just demonstrated there is nothing to discuss with you.

For edge holding I'll refer you to the 31 year old Bernard Levine quote I posted, but I don't think you'll know who that is...

Gaston

 

[jdm61]

Arguably AEB-L is right on the line for chromium content. What "saves" it is likely that a VERy high percentage aka almost all of that chromium ends up in a "free" state and not locked up in primary carbides. Some would say that 14C28N was formulated for that very reason. The nitrogen makes it more corrosion resistant than AEB-L/13C26.

"and though not a true stainless, AEB-L" ...... HUH?

 

[samuraistuart]

Arguably AEB-L is right on the line for chromium content. What "saves" it is likely that a VERy high percentage aka almost all of that chromium ends up in a "free" state and not locked up in primary carbides. Some would say that 14C28N was formulated for that very reason. The nitrogen makes it more corrosion resistant than AEB-L/13C26.

Well, I was wondering about this statement, understanding that Cr CAN get tied up in Cr carbides and thus sort of fall short of free Cr, but this is not the case with AEBL, because the carbon content is too low for much Cr carbide formation. But because the full amount of 13% Cr is NOT tied up, it is a stainless steel. (edit to add....I say "full" amount with the understanding of around 3% carbide in AEBL)