Why Won't My Handles Stay On?

hey Mike, i just barely hit the tang as you can see in the following pictures.
just enough where it got rid of the handle material. i filked a lot of it away from the ricasso area because i don't have my small wheel attachment hooke up and i couldn't get into the radius so it should be pretty damn cool. i don't think thats the problme but like you said. the handle material can suck up some heat quick...
i always make sure to do as little sanding of the spine as possble. this barely saw any. maybe the pictures will help

I remember you saying that about the acetone a while back. i may need to try a new cleaner.
here are the pictures

the first is the seperation
the second is the spine. all attached nice. a little epoxy line (jbweld) but intact
and the third is the overall for the heck of it:D
 
Very pretty knife, Michael. Very pretty. You're setting yourself up for failure, though, with your pin placement, IMO. Too far from the front.

Not to go on a rant (we all know I am above that ;)) but my preferred method of attaching a handle on a fulltang knife that doesn't have mortised bolsters is to use smaller pins closer to the ends. Those pin holes should be mushroomed with a tapered reamer and then pins carefully peened to fill the holes. The handle can't pull away, then. the epoxy need be nothing but a sealer. This is especially important with any longbladed knife where use may cause it to flex down into the handle. Mosaic pins can be added as decoration in the middle.

I know this is very old school and will draw some flak, but doing it that way, you will NOT have the problem you are repeatedly encountering. That's what I did after having this problem those couple of knives. They were bolted on with Corby's away from the ends.
 
thanks Mike,
I thought that could be playing some problem, because i've never had a handle lift off near the back unless there was no thong hole tube.
but even with smaller knives, 6" overall i'e found the same problem
but had the same pin placement

ideally, how close should the pin be to the front of the handle? maybe i should start working with 3 pins and the thong hole?

i've always done 2 pins (except for a few way in the beginning) i guess i could just as easy work in 3 to the look. or maybe a nice little 1/16" pin in the very front? i don't know

Thanks Mike you may have solved it.
but like leon said, he still get a real bond to the metal, where mine always comes off easy... i'll show a picture of the handles and tang once stripped. when i find the want to head back into the shop :(

then maybe i can finally post some finished knives.

thanks again guys. and more suggestions are very welcome
 
fitzo said:
Very pretty knife, Michael. Very pretty. You're setting yourself up for failure, though, with your pin placement, IMO. Too far from the front.

Not to go on a rant (we all know I am above that ;)) but my preferred method of attaching a handle on a fulltang knife that doesn't have mortised bolsters is to use smaller pins closer to the ends. Those pin holes should be mushroomed with a tapered reamer and then pins carefully peened to fill the holes. The handle can't pull away, then. the epoxy need be nothing but a sealer. This is especially important with any longbladed knife where use may cause it to flex down into the handle. Mosaic pins can be added as decoration in the middle.

I know this is very old school and will draw some flak, but doing it that way, you will NOT have the problem you are repeatedly encountering. That's what I did after having this problem those couple of knives. They were bolted on with Corby's away from the ends.
Click to expand...

Mike, this is the exact method that TBose uses on his folders for the pins that are finished flush. Seems to work fine for him on stag, MOP, ivory, everything.

Oooops almost forgot..... Michael, NICE KNIFE!
 
Mike, I use Devcon 2 ton epoxy and corby type rivets and I've never had a handle come loose, even with buffalo horn. I've got a buffalo horn handled knife, with red liners, I made about ten years ago and it's still just fine. I epoxy the liner and the handle material together and let sit for a day. I epoxy one handle to the knife, let sit for a day, and drill back throught the tang for the handle bolts. The next day I epoxy the other handle on, again I let it sit for a day, and drill back through the first handle for the bolts. I counterbore for the bolts, mix up a little epoxy for the threads, and counterbored holes and tighten the hell out of them. I clean everything off with acetone before I epoxy anything. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never had a problem with anything coming loose.
 
thanks man! i know its labor intensive but hey its better thn grinding off your third or fourth set of handles........ and staying away from the shop long enough to forget why you did then doing it again!
time to get some loctite E120 and see if i can make my pin placement work out. if not i'm putting more pins in the handles!

but first i gotta try that chickenkerosenemagneticnorthshit:rolleyes:
 
Tom: sounds like bolsters on that knife though?
which may be a good answer too. man i need to get back in the shop.
but once again back into work for my second shift today
thanks again guys keep em coming!
 
Michael, I have no doubt that modern adhesives work far better than when the choice seemed only Devcon or Conap. I have no doubt a truly wonderful bond can be achieved with modern epoxies and proper prep. I am personally disinclined to trust those, though. I have heard stories of people tossing a knife up on a dashboard and even modern epoxies releasing after heating up in the intense heating of the sun in a closed vehicle.

The second knife I ever made ( late '70's) hangs on the magnet bar above my workbench as a reminder. It was ground from a file, and I didn't have tools to drill it then. I epoxied scales on with hardware store crap, ignorant. Soon one scale popped off, then the other. I glued 'em back on and one scale popped off again. Nowadays it is rubberbanded together and stays there as a reminder of learning from my mistakes.

The couple of times I encountered problems after that it was from overheating the tang grinding the handle fit, as I mentioned.

I am getting old and stubborn and find it hard to believe that a mechanical connection with a peened pin or bolt isn't more certain than an adhesive in almost every case. :D Hell, I am so old school I can't even buy into the idea of pins that are scored and just glued into place. Time and modern techniques have passed me by, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

All that said, different selection of adhesive and attentive preparation will probably solve your problem. Listen to Mickley's recommendations.....

Best of luck to you in solving this. I understand your frustration...

PS, whatever "glue" you decide on, go to the manufacturer's website and look at the tech sheet on that product. Every epoxy has a "optimum thickness" to work properly. Mix accurately. Some epoxies, slight diversions from recommended ratios can make quite a difference in bonding characteristics. if it says "weigh 'em", then get a cheap food scale and do so.
 
Mike,
Nice looking knife!!!.... (except for those big gaps!):eek:

No seriously....nice knife.
I agree with Fitzo...you need a pin closer to the front.

Chuck makes a good point about the figure 8....dragging can give you two flat planes instead of one. I would also do the flats of the knife on the block too.
Good luck bro.
Mace


PS the comment about the zoo crew was just plain mean.... You'll get yours.
Mace
 
Like Mike F says, acetone we use leaves an oily residue. Devcon failed every test Steve S and I did almost first of the nearly 2 dozen we tried. K&G has great epoxy, golf shafting expoxy worked very well also. Currently I use Loctite Speedbonder 330 or 324 and it is the best of class for every thing except very porous wood that would not allow it to cure. It is anerobic so it requires no oxygen environment to cure fully. You have about 3 minutes working time and then it kicks off and you can be back to work on it in 10 minutes. Amazing stuff.

Disclaimer -I am in the process of meeting with a Loctite rep to get set up as a dealer. I'm doing that because I believe Loctite is putting out the best adhesives currently available.

edited to fix a typo and put the right Loctite number in...
 
tmickley said:
.....
Disclaimer -I have am in the process of meeting with a Loctite rep to get set up as a dealer. .......
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Well, let's move it along then, ok? With that statement, people are now waiting on you. :p :D :D

PS...whatever yer calling me right now, it's probably true, so "sticks and stones"..... :)
 
fitzo said:
Well, let's move it along then, ok? With that statement, people are now waiting on you. :p :D :D

PS...whatever yer calling me right now, it's probably true, so "sticks and stones"..... :)
Click to expand...

I just got a note from the rep today to set up a meeting next Tuesday or Thursday. We'll see how it goes.

In my testing JB Weld didn't hold all that well, especially through the dishwasher tests. In fact I was surprized at how poorly it held in several of the tests. Having said that, I still use it as a sealer in bolsters since it has the highest temperature tolerance of most all of them (in the 500F range for the regular, the kwik set is around 250F from memory - I could be off a little). With the high temps a bolster reaches when shaping after peening, I want the epoxy in there that will take the temps.
 
tmickley said:
I just got a note from the rep today to set up a meeting next Tuesday or Thursday. We'll see how it goes.
......
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That's great, Tracy, I hope it works out. If it does, you may consider my order placed.....:thumbup: I switched to K&G based on your recommendation and have been happy. I'll willingly trust you on this one, too. :)
 
Tracy,
Does loctite sell a super adhesive in a slower cure? 3 minutes is not enough for me. Sorry to hijack your thread Micheal.
Matt Doyle
 
mdoyle said:
Tracy,
Does loctite sell a super adhesive in a slower cure? 3 minutes is not enough for me. Sorry to hijack your thread Micheal.
Matt Doyle
Click to expand...

Yes, they have different formulas for various clamp times. I did a lot of research earlier and the breadth of their assortment is amazing. I don't know the numbers but dig around the Loctite web site and you will eventually find their techinical data sheets along that will show clamp times. 3 minutes is a bit of scramble but once you adjust to it by laying everything out ready to go, it's not that big of a deal. The first few times make you sweat a little though. After a couple of times of that, you really appreciate the quick set time.
 
mike I want to go back to the flatting.. all said is good advice,
think about what happens when you push pull anything that is razed no mater what way you push it it will want to try and roll and the more you do this on sand paper the more it will round on you..I use B/horn all the time with no problems.. BUT I use a mill to flatten it..it's dead nuts this way.
as said pin placement will help you when the thing is not flat. the key is flat though..
I use hidden epoxy pins in the handles I don't want pins to show on and that's a lot of them I want this way..
also if you have a slotted guard put a biscuit for epoxy in using a dremal with a cut off disk on it to do this..I don't rely on the epoxy to hold the scales down but mainly to seal but it will make for good biscuit and pins AS long as the scales are flat to start with. I don't have the problems you are having this way.. if you have bolsters try and Dovetail them
also once you have ( this could help you also) your profiles (tang and scales) close to finished use your dremal to make marks in the tang and on the under sides of the scales this way you can't squeeze out to much epoxy (another problem with some guys).. when you put hidden epoxy pins in put your holes in the tang (1/8" I use), then place the semi finished scale on one side in place and then drill a 1/8" hole though in to it about 1/8" - 3/16" then do the other side then use a 1/8 bit using the tang as the template. then use a 1/8" ball bit in the dremal hollow out the bottom of the holes to form a head for the epoxy pins, when you start to epoxy things make sure you full these holes and biscuit slots using a tooth pick or something similar.., but make sure the scales are flat. if you have to, use your platen ( a flat one) and be sure to push only in the center of the part and try not to let the part rock on you, be deliberate on a good sharp belt to keep the heat down.it won't take much time to flatten your scales..I never take my scales and hand sand them now to flatten them other than just one or two passes just to clean up any oil or crap from my hand got on them.. FLAT:) not saying this is the only way but it works for me..
 
mdoyle said:
Tracy,
Does loctite sell a super adhesive in a slower cure? 3 minutes is not enough for me. Sorry to hijack your thread Micheal.
Matt Doyle
Click to expand...

I've been using the Loctite E120HP that Tracy got good results with. Plenty of cure time, takes a day before you can work on it again. No problems so far, but I'm a beginner so my stuff hasn't gone through the wringer enough to be really certain yet.
 
Mike, i know what you're saying. you know its in there with pins no question and even if the epoxy fails you got it held together.

I think i might try some of those epoxies first. and see where it leads me. and if i have no luck i'll need to work with better pin ideas/screw construction/corby rivets. but i think with this big thread here i'll figure it out fine

Mace: thanks man. its 10" overall too. almost getting there huh?
i think i'm going to do some good tests on my sanding practices too. surface plates, grinders, straight edges etc. untill i figure if what i'm doing is as good as i can get it with my tools.

ohh i know, they all come back to roost.

TMickely: thanks for the whole glue wars thing man. i don't think you know how much you've helped people out there. we've learned a lot from you and Sando. make sure ya post if you become a dealer because i'll be calling you for the stuff.

So this anerobic stuff takes 3 minutes to work with then 10 minutes to cure ya say? thats pretty crazy and if i remember you listed it need just about 0 thickness of the stuff?

i may try that after i try the E120HP (got a buddy gonna let me use some)
I might just have to give ya a call sometime to discuss this stuff.

Doyle: Don't worry about it. as long as we're all learning and not just joking around like mr mace (JS) the Baptist of the hammer-swingin

Dan: I hear ya i need me a mill though. that may be pretty far off though. first i need an oven, and a blast cabinet, and a compressor, man the list goes on! like i said to Mace i'm going to have to figure out if what i'm doing is working well enough. they always look damn flat when i hold em on the knife or hold em together.
well atleast this one won't be coming for a sheath anytime soon. give ya some time to relax :D
We'll see how the epoxies and pins work and i might end up doing the "epoxy rivets" too just might be tough on this little 1/8" thick handle material. i guess in that case i can just screw em together.

which is something i need to get into anyway. especially with this nice tapmatic sitting around getting no use. gotta order the collets for it tommorrow

Dan P: ohh you've had that stuff around long enough where i don't think you should have any worries. if not by now then i don't think its going to be anything freaky like on mine.


Thanks a lot to all of you i really appreciate the help and suggestions and a damn good long posting from many knowledgeable sources. thanks again
oh yeah except for that Mace guy he doens't count:p
 
I haye also used Bruce's method of sanding out the inside center just a touch.Leaves room for adhesive to stay ond only about 1/8" contact around the edge.Works for me!
 
Tracy. out of the 324 325 and 326 what do you recommend? they seem to have their own designations high impact, severe environment, and high performace in that order. but all seem to be around the same idea
2800 Psi on 324
2200 on 325
2700 on 326

but the 325 seems to take the highest temp

where should i go with this? i know you recommended the 324 which seems pretty damn good to me and still good up to 275F

i think i answered my question. thanks man
 
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