Work Sharp (belt grinder) Knife Sharpener

Hey, Dan, good to see your giving the WS a try. I've enjoyed and learned from your sharpening posts, and hope you'll keep experimenting with the WS.

There may be some leather belts in the works, but in the meantime, Noctis and others have pointed out a good alternative---a worn (or sanded down) 6000 grit belt with a little Mother's Mag, or other polish, applied.

Andrew
 
I got one of these a few weeks ago and its been working out great. I still need some more practice but it definitely takes less time than sharpening by hand. Quick question about the aftermarket belts... I got a few upto 1200MX and I've had no issues with them but I also got some 12000AO and these seem to be a little too big even though I ordered 1/2"x12". Anyone else experience the same?
 
Interestingly enough, that's the same method that a bunch of people have been using with the EdgePro for quite a while, taking the old finish tapes and rubbing a bit of Mothers on them for additional polish. :)

I'm glad you might have been able to take something away from reading all of my random jaw-flappin', this is a fun hobby! I've played with a number of sharpening systems, and if I wanted a powered system and did not have the space for a real belt grinder, I'd say that the WS would be where my attention would be going. Likely without the guide, I've had better luck holding the blade on the exposed belt especially near the bolster and tip. But I would think that there's no reason you couldn't use the WS and a leather hand strop to get an edge every bit as good as you can get off of a full-size belt.

Now, if we can get them to make the Trizact structured-abrasive belts and a leather belt for it... :D
 
Noctis3880 said:
If you're holding it at a 20 degree angle that essentially means you're reprofiling the edge to a lower angle and so that will require some metal removal. I would recommend using the P80 belt carefully to do the bulk of the grinding(check to make sure the edge doesn't heat up too much). Once you feel that burr, you're ready to refine the edge and it should be sharp from there on.
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UnknownVT said:
Are you getting a distinct burr when you hone with the P220 belt?
you should be able to feel the burr by dragging your finger along the blade face and over the edge on the opposite side to that you were grinding/honing.

If not, perhaps you are not honing/reaching the actual final edge itself.

If you cannot feel the burr -
then use a marking pen and color the entire edge - and do a single pass over the belt -
then see if you have removed the marking all the way to the final edge.

If there is any color at the final edge it means you have not ground/honed enough to reach the actual final edge -
and you need to grind/hone more until that is reached -
in which case you ought to be able to feel the burr on the opposite side to the one you were grinding/honing.

Please let us know how you get on?




so i used these suggestions with no avail i at least took 60 strokes on the green belt and felt a burr and so i moved on to the next belt and up to the 6000.. it got sharper but no shaving and still doesnt cut paper that well... man pretty frustrating!! its sr101 i heard its hard to sharpen but 60 times on the p40 belt it should have an edge.. im holding the edge pretty consistintly when making my passes.. any more help appreciated
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stinkyspice said:
so i used these suggestions with no avail i at least took 60 strokes on the green belt and felt a burr and so i moved on to the next belt and up to the 6000.. it got sharper but no shaving and still doesnt cut paper that well... man pretty frustrating!! its sr101 i heard its hard to sharpen but 60 times on the p40 belt it should have an edge.. im holding the edge pretty consistintly when making my passes.. any more help appreciated
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If you have already used the coarse P80 belt for 60 passes - it ought to have ground/honed to the actual edge (although I hope you heeded Noctis3880's caution about overheating the edge) ....

however, just in case -
do you feel the burr along the entire length of the edge?

Sometimes the existing profile may only reach/hone in parts to the actual edge.

Perhaps using the marking pen to color the entire length of the actual edge might help visualize it a better, and to ensure you have actually ground/honed to the actual edge along the entire length.

OR you can try to put a micro-bevel on the knife by a few strokes on a V-type hone/crock-sticks, SharpMaker Tri-Angle Sharpener etc. -
again this is still very dependent on sharpening the actual final edge - again coloring with marker along entire length of edge to see that the V honing does remove all the color along the final edge.

Hopefully you'll get success soon.

Please let us know?

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As another thought, perhaps back off on the pressure a little? Press too hard and you can bow the belt fairly heavily, resulting in a very obtuse convex, a much more "round" than "pointy" edge. I'm not entirely sure how easy that is to do on the WS (I haven't done it, but I have a feel for how hard the blade should be riding) but if you've got a burr truly raised everywhere, it would seem like the issue is more with edge geometry than process?

Definitely ditto about the marker, I still use mine when I'm making a grit transition on the Kalamazoo, sometimes it's quite tough to see if you've established the new scratch pattern fully to the edge, or still have a little to go. The marker makes that show RIGHT up.
 
You could also be flopping the burr back and forth. You might want to try slicing across the grain of a piece of wood or leather which should break off the burr and then some really light passes on a high grit and see how that does.
 
Komitadjie said:
As another thought, perhaps back off on the pressure a little? Press too hard and you can bow the belt fairly heavily, resulting in a very obtuse convex, a much more "round" than "pointy" edge.
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Ben B said:
You could also be flopping the burr back and forth. You might want to try slicing across the grain of a piece of wood or leather which should break off the burr and then some really light passes on a high grit and see how that does.
Click to expand...

Both of these are very good points - that kind of burr referred to by Ben B is also often called a "wire edge" -
normally they ought to be relatively easy to remove -
very light honing with a finer grit like the P220 or even 6000 grit standard belts -
a V-hone sharpener on the fine to very fine grits should do it too.

Komitadjie said:
Definitely ditto about the marker, I still use mine when I'm making a grit transition on the Kalamazoo, sometimes it's quite tough to see if you've established the new scratch pattern fully to the edge, or still have a little to go. The marker makes that show RIGHT up.
Click to expand...

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okay well i had a burr along the entire edge and i am not flopping the burr back and forth because its gone when i make the pass on the other side.. i think it is a problem with the edge geometry. ill try making a second bevel on the sharpmaker and update asap
 
If you're raising a burr and there's no wire edge, the only other possibility left is that the edge is too obtuse. I've had this happen when I tried to sharpen a katana like a knife, which made it near 45 degrees per side, and that's like using the corner of your table to try and cut something. If you're doing it freehand, I find that placing the knife perpendicular to the table will give me about a 13-15 degree angle. From that point, I tilt the spine towards me about 5 degrees to make it 18-20 degrees per side. So lower the angle a bit and raise a burr again(no need to do 60 passes in one go, I like to check every 5-10 passes).

If this still doesn't work, I could give it a go on my Worksharp since I'm on Oahu. Though I strongly suggest that you try and figure it out since it would help in the long run.

Pictures might also help reveal the problem. Trust me, if I can get my ESEE Junglas sharp enough to cut free-hanging hair, that Scrapyard knife should be no problem. I also doubt SR101 would impress me after doing ZDP-189, S60V, S90V, CTS-20CP, S110V, and S125V:thumbup:.
 
Noctis3880 said:
If you're raising a burr and there's no wire edge, the only other possibility left is that the edge is too obtuse. I've had this happen when I tried to sharpen a katana like a knife, which made it near 45 degrees per side, and that's like using the corner of your table to try and cut something. If you're doing it freehand, I find that placing the knife perpendicular to the table will give me about a 13-15 degree angle. From that point, I tilt the spine towards me about 5 degrees to make it 18-20 degrees per side. So lower the angle a bit and raise a burr again(no need to do 60 passes in one go, I like to check every 5-10 passes).

If this still doesn't work, I could give it a go on my Worksharp since I'm on Oahu. Though I strongly suggest that you try and figure it out since it would help in the long run.

Pictures might also help reveal the problem. Trust me, if I can get my ESEE Junglas sharp enough to cut free-hanging hair, that Scrapyard knife should be no problem. I also doubt SR101

would impress me after doing ZDP-189, S60V, S90V, CTS-20CP, S110V, and S125V:thumbup:.
Click to expand...


awesome thanks noctis ill keep that in mind... i want to try to figure it how my self see if i can figure it out... like u said it would help me out in the long run
 
so no luck. it cuts paper a little better but still not shaving i tried to do it with a light touch and also was holding my angle consistently.. i used the marker and i was raising a burr and touching the edge... mhh maybe i should sent it to a professional already. i am going to try one more time tomorrow and well see.
 
Stinkyspice,

Just to make sure I'm going to ask one other question and it may well just be an omission. I think twice you said that you raised the burr on one side and then when you did the other side "it was gone".
So what I want to make sure is that you have a burr on the other side at that point. Once you are down to the edge, your passes on one side should create the burr on the opposite side. Then you should do the other side until you raise a burr back on the original side. That is the classic way you know you are working the edge. If you aren't getting the burr on the second pass, it could be because you have an asymmetric edge right now. I'm kind of grasping at straws, but you never know.
 
stinkyspice said:
so no luck. it cuts paper a little better but still not shaving i tried to do it with a light touch and also was holding my angle consistently.. i used the marker and i was raising a burr and touching the edge...
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Sorry to hear that.
Have you tried slicing paper or shaving along different parts of the edge - there might be a slight possibility that it could just be a section of the edge that is not sharp?

Do you have a magnifier or lower powered microscope to look at the edge?

There are some very good but cheap LED illuminated microscopes that do this well -
I recently bought all the cheapies I could find - and one in particular was pretty good at it, enough that I bought the slightly lower powered version so I have two of the same type.
groups shot of illuminated microscopes -
MicroSgrp111106.jpg


the 2 that were pretty good - 60x and 45x
MicroS60x45x111106.jpg


both of these were cheap - and I mean cheap - less than $3 shipped
I think I prefer the 60x - although the 45x image quality is better - the 60x has the high magnification.

Before one thinks higher the better - the right most in the first group picture is a 60-100x zoom microscope - but its image quality is pretty poor - due to glare/flare in the lenses.

Important note: some of these magnifications bear no resemblance to reality.
eg: the 60x is higher mag than the 45x - which in turn is significantly higher mag than the magnifying glass (second from right) which was also listed as 45x.

The 60x of the good ones is no where near as high was the 60x on the zoom microscope, and not even as high as the 30x of the bottom microscope.

I understand magnification should be linear - ie: a 4x magnifier ought to make something look 4x bigger (linearly). Sometimes to boost/inflate specs some may claim area magnification which is the linear magnification squared - so that the same 4x linear magnifier could be advertised as a 16x magnifier

The good 60x, 45x and the magnifying glass show image the right way round so really ought to be classified as magnifying glasses - whereas the others the 60-100x zoom and the bottom 30x are true microscopes that show the image reversed (left/right and up/down reversed)

All except the bottom one are LED illuminated. I bought the bottom one because it was listed as LED - but it turned out to be regular (incandescent) light - when I complained the seller just refunded my money.

That bottom microscope is very similar to the Tasco 30x illuminated microscope I already have
Tasco30xms.jpg

marginally, this old Tasco illuminated microscope still has the best image quality to me.

--
Vincent

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stinkyspice said:
so no luck. it cuts paper a little better but still not shaving i tried to do it with a light touch and also was holding my angle consistently.. i used the marker and i was raising a burr and touching the edge... mhh maybe i should sent it to a professional already. i am going to try one more time tomorrow and well see.
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You can send it to Richard J here on the forums and request a convex edge on it if that's what you're going for.
I can sharpen it on my own Worksharp for you, though I'm no professional. It might help if you had some macro shots of the knife.
 
i just got frustrated and sent it to scrapyard for them to sharpen.. ( i should have done it my self :( ).

im pretty sure that the edge was to obtuse because i couldn't get the belt to remove all the marker at once it was either the top half or the bottom half.

thanks all for the help!!
 
stinkyspice said:
im pretty sure that the edge was to obtuse because i couldn't get the belt to remove all the marker at once it was either the top half or the bottom half.
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Sorry to hear of your frustration.

Please note - I am only basing this on what you just said.

This sounds partially correct - the final edge does sound too obtuse.
However it sounds like the blade was too thick going toward the edge to begin with -
which means you probably have to remove a lot of steel to get that good secondary/transition bevel at basically the same consistent angle.

It sounds like what you did was to ground somewhat the secondary/transition angle - but because you probably were not getting to the actual edge and feeling the burr - you varied the angle to a more obtuse one so that the actual edge was reached - so that a burr was raised -

:o OK, let me just try to explain what I just try to say -
let's say one started trying to grind at a 20deg (per side) angle - on the Work Sharp this would be merely to hold the blade so that it is vertical/straight up & down.

Now after grinding a "lot" the edge still did not feel sharp (mainly because probably not enough steel had been removed to reach the actual cutting edge) - you are advised to feel for the burr, use a marking pen to see if the edge is reached - so it probably be natural to vary the angle of the blade a bit to make sure the edge is reached - erasing the marker along the edge and feeling burr - that variation in angle probably was quite a bit more obtuse than desirable - (hence erasing the marker all along the edge, but not along the transition/secondary bevel) - so there is a possibility of rolling the edge onto the belt - thus blunting it again.

The way to do it is to hold at a consistent angle at all times - that is why I still use the guide - despite the many well intentioned advice I receive to do it freehand - even when used merely as a visual guide helps give me the confidence and makes it easier for me to see if I am deviating from keeping a steady consistent angle.

Before someone who is a lot better at sharpening tells us it is entirely possible to vary one's angle on the belt and still get a very sharp blade - please remember the context of talking about the inability to get a blade sharp using the Work Sharp - and it may be that the blade's edge was being rolled onto the belt due to inconsistent maintenance of the honing angle - as evidenced by the poster's remark.

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Vincent

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UnknownVT said:
let's say one started trying to grind at a 20deg (per side) angle - on the Work Sharp this would be merely to hold the blade so that it is vertical/straight up & down.
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I'm not so sure about that. When I put my knife in with the guide, I note that the angle makes the knife spine tilt slightly away from the belt, meaning it's not exactly perpendicular.
 
Noctis3880 said:
I'm not so sure about that. When I put my knife in with the guide, I note that the angle makes the knife spine tilt slightly away from the belt, meaning it's not exactly perpendicular.
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No....
The Work Sharp belt is at 20deg from vertical - so holding the blade straight up-down/vertical gets approx 20deg.
When I used that 20deg example there was no mention of any guide in that context.

When I did mention using the guide
much further down in the post, and only in passing -
I explained I use it as a visual guide -
so in the case of a 20deg angle the blade would not touch the guide -
that's why it's visual.

Hope that help clear things up?

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Vincent

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