World War I Navy Issue Knife

It's fascinating that you should post that iSaur, and quite a coincidence. A few days ago I was perusing Levine's Guide to Knives, and noticed that in his description of the WW1 Navy Knife, he refers to the knife illustrated as having a "regulation navy pocket blade and nail pen" (my emphasis). That set me wondering if there was a regulation specifying the type of blade on knives issued to and/or carried by US sailors, and hence perhaps part of the reason a square-tipped blade was retained when the Navy Knife was downsized. I searched for US Navy regulations, and found a couple of sets, but not the 1866 ones. I've been busy this week, and have had BRL4 open on the chair next to my computer to remind me to pursue this. I haven't read the article you linked to yet, but well done :thumbup:
 
I hope the information about the 1866 regulations is correct, and trust it to be so. The tale itself sounds like blarney to me though! :D There's a story that Cardinal Richlieu ordered the points of his table knives squared off after someone irritated him by constantly using his table knife to point while animatedly conversing over the dinner table. If accidentally dropped while aloft, I suppose a square-ended knife might be slightly less likely to impale some hapless sailor below, but I would have thought that the carrying of the knife on a lanyard was a more important factor than the shape of the knife's blade. Of course that's not to say that it wasn't a factor in the drafting of Navy regulations. I've always thought that the story about points being struck off knives to stop bored sailors injuring each other was rubbish, since presumably there was no shortage of weapons and improvised weapons on these ships, and a large square-ended knife will inflict as much damage as a straight-razor if sharp. A straight edged knife will certainly cut rope better than a knife with a curved belly, and from my reading of historic cutlery patterns, straight-edged knives (including knives with virtually straight-ends) seem to have been far more common than pointed knives.

Something else of note of course is that the US Navy Knife under discussion does not have a completely square end! :D :thumbup:
 
It's a shame that the final (and key) sentence of the article isn't referenced.

As far as I know, U.S. Navy sailors at this time, and up until World War II, were only allowed to carry folding knives, and those had to have square-tipped blades.
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As far as I know, the US Navy's current position is this:



It would be nice to have sight of earlier regulations specifying square-ended blades :thumbup:
 
One answer to the question 'Why do sailors wear bell-bottomed trousers?' might be 'Because that's what sailors wear' (at least since the early 19th century). Possibly it is the same with the square-ended blade on the US Navy WW1 knife, it was given a square-ended blade because it was traditional for sailors to have square-ended blades. Reading through the naval uniform regulations (and this is just as true of the British Navy as of the US Navy), it's clear that tradition is a very important factor. Many of the features of today's naval uniforms are anachronistic in the extreme, but they cling onto their neckerchiefs and lanyards, peakless hats and bell-bottomed trousers, just as they once clung onto their square-ended knives :)
 
Loads of interesting discussion on the history of US Naval uniforms here: http://www.history.navy.mil/browse-...eys-of-the-evolution-of-us-navy-uniforms.html . There are loads of myths explored and debunked. Strangely not only any mention of the colourful tales of point-lopping, but no mention of knives or knife lanyards at all. I'll keep looking :rolleyes:

Today the most imaginative of sailors can describe this piping as representative of the three major victories of either John Paul Jones or Commodore Oliver Hazard Perry, depending on which sea dog you happen to ask.

Now, I'm sure you've heard that the black neckerchief is a symbol of mourning for Admiral Lord Nelson, Britain's greatest admiral who died at Trafalgar after defeating the French and Spanish fleets in 1805. Good story, but neckerchiefs were around long before Nelson as a bandanna to guard against the scorching sun at sea. The silk neckerchief, with Navy-issue square knot, crept into the uniform as early as 1817.

Even today, many sailors use a coin placed in the center of the square cloth to keep its shape rounded as they meticulously roll it prior to tying. The use of this coin has generated a mystical tale stemming from the ancient Roman practice of placing a coin beneath the masts during shipbuilding. This coin would buy Roman sailors passage from the mythological "ferryman" across the river Styx, between the world of the living and the dead, in case they perished at sea. Referencing this fable, a few salts remark that they're prepared to pay the price, patting the backs of their necks where their toll is snugly hidden.

The one aspect of the crackerjacks that has not been dashed as a yarn is the collar flap. The collar of the jumper was extended to a nine-inch flap in the late 1800s, replacing the previous wide collar to which a flap was fastened by, guess what? - buttons.

This signifies a tradition held over from the days of tall ships, before the Navy employed haircut regulations. Linehandlers would pull their hair back in ponytail fashion and then apply a tarry substance to prevent any strands from flying loose and becoming entangled or ripped out during the complicated and dangerous linehandling maneuvers that kept their ship at full sail. The flap would attach to the collar, thus keeping the mass of tar and hair away from the sailor's uniform. It also protected his girlfriend's furniture by careful placement of the flap over the back of the couch or chair between hair and upholstery. When the flap became a permanent fixture on the collar, the neckerchief came in handy to keep the uniform, and the furniture, tar-free.

Finally, the dixie cup. No, King George or Harry did not wake up one day and issue an edict, "let all Navy enlisted men don a cap that can double as a royal frisbee." Though the gliding properties of a properly rolled dixie cup startle even NASA scientists, this is not how the white hat evolved. In fact, the whole process was not at all entertaining - it makes too much sense.

Remember the "black hat" from 1817 regulation? Well, stovepipe hats were pretty popular early on but tended to fall off a lot, not to mention the cracking and crunching they took when sailors tried to stow them. A smaller version with a full bill followed, but material for its production was expensive, and the bills tended to droop in warm climates. A thick blue visorless hat with an optional white cover, complete with a hat ribbon sporting unit identification was tried and later dropped for a straw hat, which didn't glide at all.

With all this cover confusion, the easiest way to make a hat was to use the most-available resource - sailcloth, or canvas. Canvas flat hats replaced the black, blue and straw headgear and eventually were mass-produced and reinforced into today's form. Naval lore-ists focus on the white hat's bailing properties, but that dixie cup theory doesn't hold water unless it's during a dire emergency.

These few examples provide a glimpse of the many aspects of the traditions of the Navy, adding to the romance of the sea and a sailor's pride in his uniform and service.
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I have been under the impression that the squared off ends of navy knives wasn't so much about prohibiting weapons, but about preventing accidental cutting of sails. I don't know how often a sailor might cut a rope that is located close to a full sail, but then I don't really claim to know what I'm talking about in the first place. :D

eta: another thing I heard somewhere: the bell-bottomed trousers can be used as a flotation device.
 
r8shell said:
I have been under the impression that the squared off ends of navy knives wasn't so much about prohibiting weapons, but about preventing accidental cutting of sails. I don't know how often a sailor might cut a rope that is located close to a full sail, but then I don't really claim to know what I'm talking about in the first place. :D

eta: another thing I heard somewhere: the bell-bottomed trousers can be used as a flotation device.
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That make sense in the age of sail r8shell - POSSIBLY! ;) :D But the smaller US Navy Knife was introduced in 1914 wasn't it (I've got so many dates running round in my head I'm beginning to forget!) ? :D :thumbup:

Those links are worth reading - SOOOO many myths about naval uniform - and I haven't even found a mention of the knives yet! :rolleyes: :D :thumbup:

Another link here - Uniforms of the United States Navy 1776-1898 - http://azmemory.azlibrary.gov/cdm/ref/collection/postersnavy/id/13#img_view_container
 
Jack Black said:
That make sense in the age of sail r8shell - POSSIBLY! ;) :D But the smaller US Navy Knife was introduced in 1914 wasn't it (I've got so many dates running round in my head I'm beginning to forget!) ? :D :thumbup:
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Yes, but by then, as you said, it's tradition.

There are so many myths about things like this because certain things just feel like they should be true, whether or not they actually are.
 
r8shell said:
Yes, but by then, as you said, it's tradition.

There are so many myths about things like this because certain things just feel like they should be true, whether or not they actually are.
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I think that may be the be all and end all of it r8shell :) You are right :) :D :thumbup:
 
r8shell said:
I have been under the impression that the squared off ends of navy knives wasn't so much about prohibiting weapons, but about preventing accidental cutting of sails. I don't know how often a sailor might cut a rope that is located close to a full sail, but then I don't really claim to know what I'm talking about in the first place. :D
eta: another thing I heard somewhere: the bell-bottomed trousers can be used as a flotation device.
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Fall off a high enough mast and those trousers might also serve as an ad hoc parachute. :p

It does seem to make sense that the sheath knives would have been frowned upon in the days of sails and ubiquitous rigging; a folded, square-ended pocketknife may have been seen as posing much lower of a risk to a ship's primary propulsion.

Jack Black said:
That make sense in the age of sail r8shell - POSSIBLY! ;) :D But the smaller US Navy Knife was introduced in 1914 wasn't it (I've got so many dates running round in my head I'm beginning to forget!) ? :D :thumbup:
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I think this may be where the USN's adherence to tradition kicks in. I also wonder if perhaps some sailors came about the practice of using their sharpened straight-edge blades for shaving, dispensing with the need for an additional implement.
 
The Levine link refers to merhant navy, so perhaps the military merely followed the Congressional edict as well? It seems that limiting knife-fighting aboard the claustrophobic confines of a ship is plausible though.

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures...-for-being-in-a-ship-samuel-johnson-96002.jpg

Dr Johnson's quote from a hundred years before might give an insight into the pressures on board ships in the past, merchant or military:eek::D
 
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TsarBomba said:
a folded, square-ended pocketknife may have been seen as posing much lower of a risk to a ship's primary propulsion.
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It may have been the case, but I still haven't seen any evidence for this at all. In earlier days, those big Rope Knives certainly stretch the description 'pocketknife'! :eek:



TsarBomba said:
I also wonder if perhaps some sailors came about the practice of using their sharpened straight-edge blades for shaving, dispensing with the need for an additional implement.
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I've also wondered about that. The choice of a nail pen as a secondary blade on a 'Rope Knife' seems an odd choice at first, unless personal hygiene was perhaps a consideration. I recall reading an article many years ago about the AK47 bayonet (panned by some in the West at the time as an outdated concept), where the author argued that soldiers regularly dumped wire-cutters from their kit, but were more likely to hang onto a knife/bayonet (which in this case had wire-cutters). The WW1 knife is really far too small to be a proper Rope Knife, but it's a great pocket-knife with good naval styling, and possibly a useful personal hygiene tool. Judging from old photos and paintings, sailors seem to have spent a lot of their evening leisure time cutting each other's hair and getting shaved, and in the one below a US sailor can be seen holding the blade of his Navy Knife to his mate's neck. I'd previously taken this for horseplay, but it could be that he was giving a shave! Whatever the case, I'm sure all those US sailors who sailed off to fight in WW1 were better equipped for whatever they faced with a useful lightweight pocketknife in their posession :thumbup:

Will Power said:
The Levine link refers to merhant navy, so perhaps the military merely followed the Congressional edict as well? It seems that limitting knife-fighting aboard the claustrophobic confines of a ship is plausible though.
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Thanks for the clarification Will, it's a shame BRL doesn't give a reference. I'm still sceptical about the idea the knife was designed to neuter knife-fights :thumbup:
 
Jack Black said:
It may have been the case, but I still haven't seen any evidence for this at all. In earlier days, those big Rope Knives certainly stretch the description 'pocketknife'! :eek:
...
I've also wondered about that. The choice of a nail pen as a secondary blade on a 'Rope Knife' seems an odd choice at first, unless personal hygiene was perhaps a consideration. I recall reading an article many years ago about the AK47 bayonet (panned by some in the West at the time as an outdated concept), where the author argued that soldiers regularly dumped wire-cutters from their kit, but were more likely to hang onto a knife/bayonet (which in this case had wire-cutters). The WW1 knife is really far too small to be a proper Rope Knife, but it's a great pocket-knife with good naval styling, and possibly a useful personal hygiene tool. Judging from old photos and paintings, sailors seem to have spent a lot of their evening leisure time cutting each other's hair and getting shaved, and in the one below a US sailor can be seen holding the blade of his Navy Knife to his mate's neck. I'd previously taken this for horseplay, but it could be that he was giving a shave! Whatever the case, I'm sure all those US sailors who sailed off to fight in WW1 were better equipped for whatever they faced with a useful lightweight pocketknife in their posession :thumbup:
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It sure does take a big pocket for that big fella. It reminds me of the first time I took a folding hunter with me sans sheath. No chance a beast like that disappears in the pocket. :eek: ;)

Looking forward to my imminent stop at the craft store for a impromptu lanyard/"chainyard" assembly. :D
 
Well, I have a lot of reading to do on this thread to catch up. However, I finally got to my SFO Cranberry #15S115 in my rotation. The Jolly Roger jigging is so sweet on this example. Every variation of the #15S115 is done so well. Have a great weekend everyone!
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Congratulations HST, I think these Navy/Rope Knives are some of the most photogenic GEC have produced :thumbup:

TsarBomba said:
It sure does take a big pocket for that big fella. It reminds me of the first time I took a folding hunter with me sans sheath. No chance a beast like that disappears in the pocket. :eek: ;)
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LOL! :D :thumbup:
 
HST said:
Well, I have a lot of reading to do on this thread to catch up. However, I finally got to my SFO Cranberry #15S115 in my rotation. The Jolly Roger jigging is so sweet on this example. Every variation of the #15S115 is done so well. Have a great weekend everyone!
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Great choice of paracord for the lanyard. I think I might seek some out for one of my demo knives. :D :thumbup:
 
Jack Black said:
There's a story that Cardinal Richlieu ordered the points of his table knives squared off after someone irritated him by constantly using his table knife to point while animatedly conversing over the dinner table.
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He did, although it was because he didn't like seeing his fellow diners picking their teeth with their knives. In 1669 Louis XIV banned pointed knives both for dining and street carry, hence our modern table knives, so there is precedence for laws mandating blunt knives, and I have heard the story from other sources about seamen's knives having the points broken off.
 
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