Z-TUFF

I don't "use" my choppers. They get sold. I have tested them on feral hog bones, dry lumber and large Brazilian pepper plants. I do know of one guy who bought a chopper form me after he had some issues with another one. He was a USMC officer and was assigned to train the Iraqi army guys at the time. At the end of the cycle, he bought a couple of goats and threw a party for his guys. He had a large bowie style chopper made from 5160 with a "torch hardened" edge at like 58Rc, at least according to the well known maker's current website. It chipped fairly badly while hacking up the goat. I made a W2 chopper for him when he got home to California and told him to test it out as he saw fit. He hacked a gnarled dead ornamental tree in his back yard for a few days with no damage. I never send a knife out of my shop any softer than around 60Rc.
hugofeynman said:
May I ask how do you use your choppers, jdm61? Your really big blades? It’s for processing wood, correct? For hitting the wood really hard, correct? Or is it to cut cardboard, paper sheets or sisal rope? I don’t think so. So, if the answer is wood, wood is full of hard inclusions (dirt), this dirt will damage your big blades no matter what the steel used, S7 and ZTUFF will blunt probably at the same time, vanadium will not help here, so if Ztuff will take twice the time to sharpen, do you think it’s an improvement over S7? You’re probably very good sharpening, but even you will notice that is not so easy sharpen Ztuff as is S7.

S7, as 5160, L6 and others are absolutely perfect for big blades, for the reasons I’ve given (hard impact tools, vanadium doesn’t help and high vanadium blades will probably suffer from microchipping, (those wood inclusions are so hard that will cause carbide tear out) while the others will dent or roll, in extreme cases). So I’ll stick with the good Ol proven steels for really big blades and would give Ztuff a try in a medium blade.
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Willie71 said:
Kentucky Kentucky , can I use this as my sig? “I’d rather wipe a bobcats ass with bardwire than hand sand it.”

I sent a blade at Rc62 to another Canadian smith, and he said he loved the edge, but said it was impossible to satin finish by hand.
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Your welcome too buddy;)
 
jdm61 said:
I don't "use" my choppers. They get sold. I have tested them on feral hog bones, dry lumber and large Brazilian pepper plants. I do know of one guy who bought a chopper form me after he had some issues with another one. He was a USMC officer and was assigned to train the Iraqi army guys at the time. At the end of the cycle, he bought a couple of goats and threw a party for his guys. He had a large bowie style chopper made from 5160 with a "torch hardened" edge at like 58Rc, at least according to the well known maker's current website. It chipped fairly badly while hacking up the goat. I made a W2 chopper for him when he got home to California and told him to test it out as he saw fit. He hacked a gnarled dead ornamental tree in his back yard for a few days with no damage. I never send a knife out of my shop any softer than around 60Rc.
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W2 it’s a great steel! Not my first choice for a Big knife (too much carbon), but a great steel, as is also 5160, when heat treated well. For me, Knives heat treated with a blow torch are a hit or miss, I wouldn’t trust my life in something heat treated that way (although there are very talented makers that heat treat this way (even W2. Someone posted some days ago that he saw someone with a torch hardened knife in W2 chopping some wood and after that the knife could cut paper), they heat treat by color observation and it works (probably not every time, I’m sure)), a digitally controlled furnace is the way to go, although some makers use a blow torch to aneal the spine and it works fine.
 
But you’re right, jdm61 jdm61 , W2 can make a damn good chopper, because it belongs to a group of steels that can be heat treated to produce Ultra Fine Grain.
 
Hopefully z-tuff doesn’t catch on! That will leave more for me, maybe I shouldn’t have started this post! Ha ha!
 
Price and availability appears to be an issue for now. It is a tiny bit cheaper than Vanadis 4E but significantly more than CPM 3V, like almost half again as much.
rodriguez7 said:
Hopefully z-tuff doesn’t catch on! That will leave more for me, maybe I shouldn’t have started this post! Ha ha!
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In a big blade, toughness is not going to be a huge issue with W2 because the center of the thicker portions like the spine isn't going to get as hard as the edge. The old "accidental hamon" and such. I recall a few years back someone had Bailey Bradshaw make them a fully hardened W2 katana for competition cutting.
 
I was looking at the specs for 1V, 3V and L6. This stuff looks like they mashed all three together. More carbon than 1V but less than 3V and the moly replaced with low to mid spec L6 levels of nickel. The claimed toughness appears to be equal to 1V as does the "base" abrasion resistance (similar to A2) but the Z Tuff seems be optimized for slightly higher hardness levels than either 1V or L6. Crucible does have a HT recipe for higher hardness in the 60+ range for 1V, but at the expense of toughness. Their "target" hardens is 58-59.But that is also the target range for 3V if you are going for ultimate toughness using a high temper. Zappa seems to be pretty strict in their recommendation for multiple pre-heats, triple high tempers, etc. with no mention of cryo/cold treatment. I agree with others who have mentioned wanting to see how this stuff would respond to cryo and low temper. Could be fun.
 
jdm61 said:
Are you both using cryo? What austenizing temp? Any idea what you as quenched hardness is?
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I’m going to do a bunch of samples over the next couple weeks. I’ve got coupons cut out that I’ll run once the V4e is done. I was hoping to get the V4e done earlier this week, but some other stuff got in the way.

From the datasheets, it looks like 1900-1950f will be our range, cryo, 400f as a baseline. I’m guessing that’ll give us about Rc60. I’ll go up to Rc62, and see if we are giving up much toughness. We know 15n20 seems to give more than it’s chemistry when run harder than recommended. With the vanadium and nickel, I think z-tuff will be comparable, but in the back of my mind, I wonder about a carbon depleted matrix with the limited carbon available. I speculate that a carbon depleted matrix might contribute to mushy edges in 3v. Maybe 1900f with a 250-300f temper will work well, rather than increasing austenizing temperature like I did with z-wear.

I’ve got high hopes for this steel, for our northern outdoorsmen. No one complains that 52100 or W2 lose their edge quickly, and z-tuff looks like it’ll hold an edge about the same. (A2 is about the same as 52100.)
 
rodriguez7 rodriguez7 Willie71 Willie71

Good to know boys.

This steel looks neat, Fits in between the 1v and 3v.

I'll be curious to see how it performs at 62rc for a 6" survival type knife.

I'lI have to check it out.

Just too many good steels these days :D
 
The pieces I tried, were 1925 x 30 minute soak, plate quench, and cryo for 30 minutes. I think I hit around 62-63 rc, if I remember correctly, triple tempered at 400, and got 58-59 rc. The one knife I destroyed took a hell of a lot to break, hammering through steel plate, 1/4 inch, only blunted the edge. Every other steel I tried testing like this, had chunks tore out, including 3v and 8670. Edge geometry was the same on all knives tested, convexed, and around 20 dps. Personally for me, this is a steel that I’ve been looking for, for the type of knives I make. A wilderness back country, Hunter, skinner/ survival knife! Holds an edge good enough, good corrosion resistance with the low temper, and extremely tough!
So far I’m happy. I think this is close to infi/A8 type steel, with much better wear resistance!
 
Dang man, looks like you need to start grinding bro. Sounds awesome.

rodriguez7 said:
The pieces I tried, were 1925 x 30 minute soak, plate quench, and cryo for 30 minutes. I think I hit around 62-63 rc, if I remember correctly, triple tempered at 400, and got 58-59 rc. The one knife I destroyed took a hell of a lot to break, hammering through steel plate, 1/4 inch, only blunted the edge. Every other steel I tried testing like this, had chunks tore out, including 3v and 8670. Edge geometry was the same on all knives tested, convexed, and around 20 dps. Personally for me, this is a steel that I’ve been looking for, for the type of knives I make. A wilderness back country, Hunter, skinner/ survival knife! Holds an edge good enough, good corrosion resistance with the low temper, and extremely tough!
So far I’m happy. I think this is close to infi/A8 type steel, with much better wear resistance!
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Might it be a hair tougher than INFI/A8m? The charts seem to indicate that it is within a couple of points of S7. I am interested to see what kind of edge it takes. that is the upside of 3V at slightly higher hardnesses.
rodriguez7 said:
The pieces I tried, were 1925 x 30 minute soak, plate quench, and cryo for 30 minutes. I think I hit around 62-63 rc, if I remember correctly, triple tempered at 400, and got 58-59 rc. The one knife I destroyed took a hell of a lot to break, hammering through steel plate, 1/4 inch, only blunted the edge. Every other steel I tried testing like this, had chunks tore out, including 3v and 8670. Edge geometry was the same on all knives tested, convexed, and around 20 dps. Personally for me, this is a steel that I’ve been looking for, for the type of knives I make. A wilderness back country, Hunter, skinner/ survival knife! Holds an edge good enough, good corrosion resistance with the low temper, and extremely tough!
So far I’m happy. I think this is close to infi/A8 type steel, with much better wear resistance!
Click to expand...
 
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