Hardheart, I'm not saying the web is not positive and the interaction is always bad, but what the internet doesn't have is the interaction and communication aspect that comes from a face to face discussion. There are those within this site that blatantly state trust no one's word trust only published facts. I'm sorry but experience is not always tangible. There are times when experience looks you in the eye and says "Trust me I know" and you do just that. The internet doesn't allow the personal interaction that determines whether you do or don't buy what that person is telling you. Blind trust I agree is not practical but neither is just a factual based argument ignoring the trust factor. I've seen too much lately professional designers driven away by critics who have never designed beans, non-metallurgists driving away degreed metallurgists, and non-business people driving away business people because the people in the trade were expressing their personal experience as an argument and that's not good enough here. When it gets really annoying is when that non-designer, metallurgist wannabe, never been in the industry person is all wrapped up in one package. We all know who that is.
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ZDP-189 vs S30V
- Thread starter greenstuffs
- Start date
I see a lot of people who rely on hero worship/blind faith leaving, or resorting to personal attacks because they can't refute logic. Yes, sometimes experience is intangible, but you can drill down into it and then understand it.
I fail to see what this idiotic offer to fly Cliff out has to do with anything, other than make people making the offer look stupid. Are you just trying to insinuate that since you can't counter a logical argument that you could intimidate him into silence (doubtful). This ain't the 6th grade, folks.
Factual based arguments don't require trust. They stand on their own.
I fail to see what this idiotic offer to fly Cliff out has to do with anything, other than make people making the offer look stupid. Are you just trying to insinuate that since you can't counter a logical argument that you could intimidate him into silence (doubtful). This ain't the 6th grade, folks.
Factual based arguments don't require trust. They stand on their own.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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1. I'm going to ignore the insult, and look at the source.:foot:
2. The offer of flying Cliff down to Blade was made in good faith, in that there MIGHT be some chestnuts of wisdom shared, and that the information presented could be of some use to the industry at large.
3. It is a "put-up or shut up" situation. Can you sodak, offer some metallurgical pearls of wisdom or are you JUST another "stumpy/"Stampite"?
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
1. Nice dodge.
2. Ok, maybe. When it's offered in the "put up or shut up" manner that it was, it seems more like a juvenile stunt.
3. No, I'm not a metallurgist. I am, however, a formally trained engineer and mathematician who is used to evaluating technical literature and making decisions. I have been quite unimpressed thus far with you, Kohai999. I don't take these issues lightly, they are very interesting to me. I am going to do some testing to try and confirm/disprove my perceptions of S30V.
It is you that I take lightly.
2. Ok, maybe. When it's offered in the "put up or shut up" manner that it was, it seems more like a juvenile stunt.
3. No, I'm not a metallurgist. I am, however, a formally trained engineer and mathematician who is used to evaluating technical literature and making decisions. I have been quite unimpressed thus far with you, Kohai999. I don't take these issues lightly, they are very interesting to me. I am going to do some testing to try and confirm/disprove my perceptions of S30V.
It is you that I take lightly.
Kohai999
Second Degree Cutter
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1. I don't want to risk getting a temporary ban to engage you in insult flinging, have been warned about possible risk by the Moderators, take that as you will.
2. No maybe about it, no question. Legitimate offer, pretty simple, really.
3. I'm not a metallurgist, either, but I ask a lot of questions of metallurgists, so I can understand this passion I have, and have to take on FAITH the answers that I get. By trade, and vocation, have been a salesman for years. I am a "relationship based" salesperson, which means that I attempt, wherever possible, not to BS my customers. Selling myself as much as the product.
4. Your impression of me has no bearing in this case, and is as meaningless as many of Cliff's thinly veiled attacks on character.
People here know me as a person, and personality, can you say the same?
My integrity is pretty much solid as things go, and can be proven, can you say the same?
If not, ESAD MF.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2005
- Messages
- 2,402
I can really appreciate a no BS salesman, when I find one I always go back to them. I will take you on your word for it that are a no BS salesperson that earns return sales because you have told the truth in your sales pitch and your customer's trust you. My Brother in law is a district sales manager for a major auto parts retailer that makes his living this way, and he has immensely loyal customers. His word is good as gold in my book. Unfortunately for me, I have ran into HUGE lines of BS from salesmen trying to sell me any product you can think of, everything from electronics to hot tubs to cars to guns, and yes, even knives (The last knife salesman I talked to said there is no such thing as a G-10 Byrd, and that it would be well over $60 if one was actually made. I left the store very shortly after that). I like to try to do research on what I am buying, and try to find a mix of specifications and objective and subjective reviews on the product I want to buy. I can assure you that the last 2 cars I bought I knew much more about them than the salesmen, the same goes for my TV and surround sound system (can't say the same for the last gun I bought, as the owner of Glockmiester really lives up to his store's name). I almost felt embarassed for some of the salesmen with the flat out untruths that were coming out of their mouths as they tried to sell me on products that they hardly knew anything about. I don't know if they really thought they were telling me the truth, or just trying to make a buck off of me by lying. I guess in the end it doesn't really matter, I am just glad I did my research and read the specifications, reviews and impressions of others so that I could make a more educated decision, as I am very pleased with most of my purchases. Those are reasons why I have a far harder time putting faith in a salesman's word than you may. Again, there are a lot of very good salesmen out there whose word you can trust, but there are also a whole lot out there without the ethics or knowledge to not BS the customer. That is just a fact of life with sales, and why many will have a hard time taking any salesman's word on faith, whatever the product.
If not, ESAD MF.
Best Regards,
STeven Garsson
So much for not resorting to insult flinging.
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- Aug 27, 2004
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- 12,955
Some people simply have a problem with salesman. As a career salesman (retired) in dental equipment and consulting I can tell you that many adopt a wait and see attitude with regards to salesman. Some never drop the wall but will only open that front gate allowing a sales rep in on rare occasion while others open it readily for just some and not at all for others, and still others keep it open all the time for all of them listening, learning, keeping what they want and discarding the rest. This is common and to be expected. Most on the job training and courses I took in sales teach a new sales person (at least in my old field) to prepare for that contingency of rejection.
You build trust because it is earned. No matter how hard you work to earn that trust some will automatically discard all you say to them just because of your title. Their loss in my opinion. So you keep moving ahead by being consistant, doing what you say you are going to do when you say you are going to do it, by knowing what you know, answering questions when you can based on what you know and also by knowing what you don't know or haven't learned yet and not being afraid to say I don't know in answer to something you don't know but promising you will try to find out for them. In other words don't pretend. Obviously there is much more to it to be successful but over time and from building a relationship you trust those you deal with in sales frequently if they are worth their salt.
Drug reps educate physicians every day of the week in our country and you take the drugs they prescribe to you based on much of what they learn from those sales reps not from some course they took or some other doctor that taught them about it.
Many dentists never really gave me but token business during my career and yet their best friends and fellow classmates gave me much or all of theirs many times even right there within the same practice. I knew this. So what? Some had other loyalties developed before my time and thats fine. What I found interesting was that some of these guys simply didn't trust 'salesmen' no matter how long, how well, or what others said good about them.
I noticed after retiring that some of these dentists I used to deal with still called me from time to time for advice on new equipment before buying; sometimes with another sales rep right there in the room. I thought nothing of this when they had been good customers. The part that surprised me was when some I never really got far with or was lucky to see at all while selling would call to ask me for advice now that I was retired.
I asked one of them once why he suddenly was asking me about equipment when I'm no longer in the game when he never dealt with me much when I was active in it. His answer? "I guess I thought that now since you no longer have a vested interest in a sale that I could trust you." I was insulted by this privately but knew many others felt just as he does about salesmen. I still answered his questions to the best of my knowledge and said my goodbyes to him. I can understand being cautious. But you can separate what is worth keeping from a sales pitch vs what is worth letting go without being insulting or argumentative.
STR
You build trust because it is earned. No matter how hard you work to earn that trust some will automatically discard all you say to them just because of your title. Their loss in my opinion. So you keep moving ahead by being consistant, doing what you say you are going to do when you say you are going to do it, by knowing what you know, answering questions when you can based on what you know and also by knowing what you don't know or haven't learned yet and not being afraid to say I don't know in answer to something you don't know but promising you will try to find out for them. In other words don't pretend. Obviously there is much more to it to be successful but over time and from building a relationship you trust those you deal with in sales frequently if they are worth their salt.
Drug reps educate physicians every day of the week in our country and you take the drugs they prescribe to you based on much of what they learn from those sales reps not from some course they took or some other doctor that taught them about it.
Many dentists never really gave me but token business during my career and yet their best friends and fellow classmates gave me much or all of theirs many times even right there within the same practice. I knew this. So what? Some had other loyalties developed before my time and thats fine. What I found interesting was that some of these guys simply didn't trust 'salesmen' no matter how long, how well, or what others said good about them.
I noticed after retiring that some of these dentists I used to deal with still called me from time to time for advice on new equipment before buying; sometimes with another sales rep right there in the room. I thought nothing of this when they had been good customers. The part that surprised me was when some I never really got far with or was lucky to see at all while selling would call to ask me for advice now that I was retired.
I asked one of them once why he suddenly was asking me about equipment when I'm no longer in the game when he never dealt with me much when I was active in it. His answer? "I guess I thought that now since you no longer have a vested interest in a sale that I could trust you." I was insulted by this privately but knew many others felt just as he does about salesmen. I still answered his questions to the best of my knowledge and said my goodbyes to him. I can understand being cautious. But you can separate what is worth keeping from a sales pitch vs what is worth letting go without being insulting or argumentative.
STR
Cliff Stamp
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That was the reason and context of the reference.
You should discuss this with Landes, this steel can reach 67 HRC as quenched so hardness is not a problem and it is ideally suited for thin edged knives. However, provided you are using high polishes. If you are using rough finishes then a high carbide steel is better, assuming you can sustain the cost of course.
The metallurgy forum is about steels in general, it is not focused on knives. The reason Thomas would not go there and post about hype and misinformation is because it is very clear that that it exists.
This is complete nonsense, how many examples do you want of maker conflicts.
No problem, do you want a list of misinformation complete with public and published refernces which show it is nonsense.
As I noted before, you can ask a question IN PUBLIC and I will answer it IN PUBLIC.
Landes will answer any questions in public as well.
Science is defined to not be faith STR. Faith means belief without evidence, this is the defination. Science is deduction based on evidence.
-Cliff
Cliff Stamp
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The first part of that sentance is the critical part.
I have attended local knife "shows", usually general trade affairs. I have also talked in person with local knife makers and talked on the phone with others and more still in email. A huge part of the conversation is always about the massive amount of hype in the industry. This is clear on public forums like rec.knives. In fact the entire point of Bladeforums was because of the hype existing on KnifeForums when Turber created Bladeforums. I have also made it clear where I am and invitied anyone to talk to me on the phone or in person about knives or steel. I have freely shared what I know with makers and users for years and still continue to do so. I recently started a research group which I privately fund which has its entire purpose to showcase the hype in the industry and actual performance.
Here is yet another point of contention, there is an advocation that tempering S30V between high/low promotes a good "balance". Now there is an arguement by a metallurgist on Swordforums in the metallurgy section that this is completely wrong and that in fact would explain the embrittlement seen in the steel. Unlike the people promoting that middle temper, he will support his viewpoint by SPECIFIC references to ACTUAL testing he has done which is supported by PUBLISHED references. These statements will be ignored because it directly contradicts the mainstream opinion and of course as point out in the above, since it is on SWORDforums it obviously has no relevance to knives in general.
And yes, I have argued with him in the past as well and he has contended points I made and challenged references I made. As does everyone who is a critical thinker and not a sheep.
-Cliff
Cliff, why would you not want to go to a "major" show and discuss in person your thoughts on the industry and how it needs to be improved? With your un-biased background and extensive evidence to the hype and mis-information rampant in the industry, how can you not go? No where else like Blade or Blade West or Oregon do you have the type of forum where all aspects fo the industry are gathered in such large numbers. You could easily get there and easily get the time set aside to present what you have collected over the many years of observation of the industry. Please clarify why you do or don't want to or can't attend one of these larger "non-local" shows.
I do wonder what all the critical thinkers do think of a refusal of a free ticket to the Blade show?
It is much easier to dodge questions, redirect facts, ignore points, misquote others, and generelly BS facts on the Net more so than can be done in person. And you all know that is true.
It is much easier to dodge questions, redirect facts, ignore points, misquote others, and generelly BS facts on the Net more so than can be done in person. And you all know that is true.
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"Science like faith are, in my opinion based on belief." That is what I said. This does not say anything about science being based on faith or having anything to do with it but that in this way it has this in common with faith. I stated that in my opinion both science and faith are based on belief, be that belief in your deductions to reach a conclusion after an experiment, or belief in a god you can't see or touch or whatever. Both science and faith can easily be debated by another's belief after reaching different deductions and different conclusions even after looking at or reading the same reports, bible or whatever it may be or after doing a study or research of your own that draws different observations.
Its all about what you believe to be true and not so much what a paper or study says. This to me is obvious because you can quite readily come to different conclusions about something than I can on just about any given topic. For example. Some people refuse to believe a certain steel can perform as a beater steel when in fact I've been using one as such for some time now and quite successfully with great impressive results surpassing even many steels it is said to be less capable of in this make up thickness and primary grind.
Want another example? Is Pluto a planet or an asteroid? Scientists are currently split on that aren't they? Seems right down the middle they disagree based on differences in deductive reasoning proving my point exactly. Science cannot provide the end all answer to anything so that the deductions remains written in stone regardless of how steadfast certains scientists hold on to their beliefs in those conclusions. Science can always be debated as can the so called facts and deductions reached to draw those conclusions. Therefore it could theoretically be debated that your search to weed out the hype is in vain because what you conclude today could also be categorized as nothing more than the current hype being disquised, or pushed as fact based on scientific deductive reasoning. You can go through the history of science and find a lot of what we'd call hype today that just stirred the masses to a certain held belief for a time and round and round we go once again proving in my mind that science and religion have a lot more in common than they may want to agree on.
Getting back to topic though. It seems like the people using ZDP189 have placed it better in the market place for what it can do by focusing on the strengths of its edge holding ability and only seeing it being used in thin high end knives designed for cutting and slicing chores. S30V seems to belong in that same category to me. I guess I have second thoughts about S30V being the best steel choice for a tactical knife blade after seeing how many come into my shop for tip repairs and edge fractures compared to other stainless but yet many makers and companies from Spyderco, in their Military, Para Military, Manix, Mini Manix, and more, to Strider and Zero Toerance high end knives made for military and LEO sport blades of this steel.
I would have thought a higher toughness steel for lateral stresses would be in order in that type of knife. Something that takes impacts well for toughness, has fair edge retention, and also corrosion resistance. Seemed like one of the carbon steels with a coating over the blade would have worked fine to me but stainless is in. Something like Busse's INFI or SR101 blades seem quite good to me for toughness and I don't read too many reports of those blades giving people corrosion problems. Too bad CPM3V is so expensive because I bet we'd see more of it in tactical knives if it could be priced better as I hear its a good tough steel used in swords and high impact tools but I have not had but one blade in that and very recently which I have not used yet. The ZT 100 fixed blade. Seems like a solid choice on the surface to me and a better one for what it can stand up to than S30V but just too cost prohibitive right now to use in a lot of knives. Everyone tells me its supposed to be a nightmare to grind and work having all that vanidium in it which I'm sure adds cost in using it also since its going to wear hard on everything including the makers.
STR
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Again, in any effort to persuade someone to change their actions, let's not present any new falsehoods. Questions cannot be dodged when the exact wording is never lost, the exact meaning can be explained in detail, and the general flow of a discussion is stored on hardware, lacking the ability of the mind to alter our memories to better suit our desires. Facts, and any attempt to redirect them, are likewise held in perpetuity; attempts to mislead are not so easily explained away. Ignoring points on the web is quite a hard thing to do. You cannot so easily change the timbre, make an appeal or alter the mood of the audience to shift points. And you certainly cannot address only a portion of a body of text while ignoring other parts. Misquoting is infinitely less capable online, where the original quote, person privy to it firsthand, or the quoted person them self can be tracked down and provide a response.
There are so many people on the net who discuss knives and relevant aspects that won't have the desire/opportunity to attend Blade; there is such a vast resource to double check most information presented in realtime-or to go to subject matter experts almost immediately and request clarification.
How would Cliff present this information, would he act as a speaker to an audience? I personally don't see what a public appearance proves as far as the actual science goes. It would test public speaking, politicking, personality, command of non-verbal communication, and many other things that don't support theories but can easily win supporters. As far as I can tell, the desired outcome is some sort of public, face to face rebuttal of Cliff's assertions, but who knows if that would happen? Maybe no one would want to act rude, maybe no one brings enough reference materials to the show, maybe the detractors have some bad seafood the night before and can't make it. Perhaps Cliff, in person, can BS better than Clinton. It is so much easier to dazzle your audience when they don't have a google toolbar in front of them. The internet covers all these.
Personally, I don't see any traction from a "Dispelling industry hype" presentation at a show where new products are debuted and knife of the year awards are handed out at anyway.
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The best way for Cliff to do something like this on a public venue is like here or in a video of a lecture in my opinion, or in a format of one where he speaks but is not taking questions.
Cliff is simply to argumentative to have an open discussion where there is a question and answer format. I'm sure if that was attempted that he would never see the end of his lectures. Instead he'd always get hung up on specific details or comments, observations or deductions reached and mentioned in the lecture that were brought up debated and questioned by those in the audience, which would sidetrack the entire topic of discussion causing him to have to stop short for time constraints or carry over where people just started leaving from being there too long. Pretty much just like we see happening here.
STR
Cliff is simply to argumentative to have an open discussion where there is a question and answer format. I'm sure if that was attempted that he would never see the end of his lectures. Instead he'd always get hung up on specific details or comments, observations or deductions reached and mentioned in the lecture that were brought up debated and questioned by those in the audience, which would sidetrack the entire topic of discussion causing him to have to stop short for time constraints or carry over where people just started leaving from being there too long. Pretty much just like we see happening here.
STR
Right here. That's the beauty of the internet, you do have as many or more people who love knives right here. There's a wealth of information at your fingertips.
Db, I agree with you totally on the b.s. in this thread. Totally. Which posters, however, are the ones engaging in it we might have to debate.
One thing that's great about the internet, and forums in general, was very well captured by hardheart. Everything is documented for posterity, and you can view and re-view threads for more understanding. I love that feature, often saving threads on my computer and coming back to them months later. I'm the sort of person who absorbs things slowly, and I need to think about them for a long time. I also like to check and cross check certain things to make sure that I'm not off base in my thinking.Other than meeting some great knifemakers and forming friendships (which I would someday like to do), what else is to be gained by attending national level knife show? I'm not asking this sarcastically, I am interested here in your perspective. Thanks.