ZDP-189 vs S30V

[geneepi]

Thomas and Geneepi those men do have my respect and it’s well earned. In fact I respect everyone and their views and opinions, new comers, people that have been hear for a year and more, and pretty much everyone until they start attacking me and my views, and accusing me of things I didn’t do, pointlessly and for no real reason. I think this forum is a great place and is more than just a learning tool. We can learn have fun and yes even BS and bragg without hopefully being attacked. Unfortunately even I who has no stake in much of anything have even become much more guarded in what I post because of some, very few, members. It’s an internet forum after all not a class room, at least to me.

I agree too. It just gets frustrating that there are some people on here that mindlessly follow what other people say. For example, some clown breaks a knife doing something it was never intended for and then other people reference this and say this manufacturers knives or this steel are all inferior because of this "test." I have seen very little actual "science" being referenced on this forum although occasionally it does pop up. Most of what I read is purely subjective or an haphazard attempt at best. I praise people who write reviews on here but people need to realize that it is not science and take the results with a grain of salt.

 

[Thomas W]

I'll give a quick example of what I'm talking about.

Couple weeks ago I was able to spend 5-6 hours with A.G. Russell. It was a tremendous experience. At dinner we swapped our pocket knives. A.G. told me the knife I was receiving was a "good" knife that will serve me well. Now I didn't know the in's and outs of the knife, if there was any independent testing done on it, how it was HT'd, or even who manufactured it.

What I did know was that A.G. said it was good. Nuff said for me. Turned out he was right.

I'm not sure where all the conspiracy stems from with a few on the forums, but I don't think industry professionals need to be published prior to believing them.

 

[thombrogan]

BTW im still not sold on the zdp stuff yet

If it doesn't do what you want it to do, I'm glad you're not sold on it. It's been really nice to me (cutting plastic and cardboard mostly), but I don't ask much of it.

when men like A.G Russell, Chris Reeve, Sal Glesser, (and others), men who are leaders in this industry speak up, I tend to give them the respect they have earned, and actually believe what they say.

You admire some great and helpful men, Thomas, and you've done a large amount of helping cutlery fans yourself. To me, it's more respectful to treat what they say and do for what's being said and done. Mr. Glesser (Sal, not Eric) often uses the phrase "Reality is a firm, but honest teacher" on these internet discussion boards and it is not disrespectful to balance what he, you, or anyone else says against what we know or think we know and go from there.

 

[aberg]

Thank you all for your responses.

 

[Thomas W]

it is not disrespectful to balance what he, you, or anyone else says against what we know or think we know and go from there.

I agree Thom, we need to have quality discussions, we can all share knowledge and our everyday experiences, but when there are accusatory cries that state makers and manufacturers are somehow recklessly misinforming the public and are not to be trusted, that can make for a dangerous road for industry pro's to travel on. It can also shed bad light on those highly thought of industry leaders that we have noted, that have worked hard for decades bringing the knives we have all come to know and love.

Spirited debate is great, but accusatory commentary should look to be avoided.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but it seemed to have gone the wrong direction anyway.

I'll look to start a thread on this very topic over the next few weeks.

 

[thombrogan]

Thomas W,

A lot of knives are leaving shops with edges thicker than the edges of hatchets and many knives are sold more by the resume of the maker(s) than by performance of knives in question. Sometimes, a do some-things-well steel is advertized as a do-all-things-incredible steel (and no such doggy exists) and when some of us ask why it's used we're told it's because we asked for it. Is it any wonder that some folks have an axe to grind after regrinding former axeheads?

 

[sodak]

I think there is a world of difference between respect and blind faith. I have tremendous respect for Sal Glesser, AG Russell, and many other wonderful people on this forum. I listen to what they say, but I do ask questions. It is precisely because they *are* knowledgeable that I ask, I want to learn from them and find out what they are thinking. If someone says that a knife is good, why? Maybe it will give me insight into how they think, what they value in a knife, etc. Maybe I'll learn something. Maybe I'll have to ask in several different ways before I can understand.

For me, this never translates into blind faith. I seriously doubt the people that I hold in high regard would want to be treated that way either. Yes, I always respect, but there's nothing wrong with respectful questions - and honest disagreement. I do reserve the right to disagree also, regardless of who I am talking with.

 

[db]

Some threads really do take alot of different twists and turns in there direction. I personally don't have a problem with it and sometimes they can become very informative, interesting, and or intertaining.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... when men like A.G Russell, Chris Reeve, Sal Glesser, (and others), men who are leaders in this industry speak up, I tend to give them the respect they have earned, and actually believe what they say.

Yes and it is exactly that viewpoint which leads to hype and misinformation. As a blindingly obvious example which can NOT be debated, there are conflicts in the cutlery industry about steels/performance. This means directly that there is misinformation and there is no counter to that. As a glaring example, compare Fowler's directives on forging and heat treatment to Cashen. What you are supposed to do is use your ability as a rational person to CHALLENGE the information you are given and make an independent decision. That is the process of critical throught. Which one of those makers has an arguement supported by published and independent facts and is logically consistent.

Assuming they are evaluating data produced by identical experiments, conditions, etc..

No it doesn't assume that at all. What it assumes is that the same hypothesis is evaluated. This can be done with different materials, different measuring equipment and the data analysis performed with different techniques. It is very rare that this is at all similar unless the same lab group is doing the work and even then, different people will prefer different methods of collecting and analysis. A striking example of this in cutlery is to compare Johnston and Landes work on edge stability and how they came to the exact same conclusions with extremely different methods on different steels (but of similar classes).

... when there are accusatory cries that state makers and manufacturers are somehow recklessly misinforming the public

They are, and this is widely known and many makers like Cashen have been exposing this hype for years now. Unlike the makers/manufacturers which hype and misinformation, Cashen does not advocate faith, he presents PUBLISHED information on which his perspective is based. He is specific about the data he has gathered and how he has collected it. He never advocates you listen to him because of who he is but because what he says is based on facts and logic. It is also simply absurd to promote the idea that makers/manufacturers never choose simply based on monetary concerns, the whole notion of fads DIRECTLY showcases this behavior and would you argue that there are no fads in the cutlery industry. Of course not.

I listen to what they say, but I do ask questions.

Faith does not show respect, it in fact shows a lack of respect, both for your ability as well as theirs.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

I think there is a world of difference between respect and blind faith. I have tremendous respect for Sal Glesser, AG Russell, and many other wonderful people on this forum. I listen to what they say, but I do ask questions. It is precisely because they *are* knowledgeable that I ask, I want to learn from them and find out what they are thinking. If someone says that a knife is good, why? Maybe it will give me insight into how they think, what they value in a knife, etc. Maybe I'll learn something. Maybe I'll have to ask in several different ways before I can understand.

For me, this never translates into blind faith. I seriously doubt the people that I hold in high regard would want to be treated that way either. Yes, I always respect, but there's nothing wrong with respectful questions - and honest disagreement. I do reserve the right to disagree also, regardless of who I am talking with.

Very well said. Amongst those makers mentioned in this thread Sal Glesser is the only one I have interacted with at any level on the forums, and he is a gentleman and a great source of knowledge and innovation. As a newbie, all of those makers have probably forgotten much more about knives than I have learned. But that doesn't make it disrespectful of me to question why they designed certain features into a knife, or suggest other things that I like. I know Sal has been very frank about things like their testing, lock strength ratings, and why he designs his knives the way he does.

Sal was nice enough to post this in my Manix review thread:

Hi Gunmike,

Thanx for the test and comments. We always appreciate "real world" experience from afi's and we appreciate the fact that some will take the time to share their thoughts, experiences and opinions. It helps us to continually improve our products.

Hard to ask for much more from him, especially after I had gotten into detail about how my Native had been a chippy blade that eventually straightened out it's act, and I was worried my Manix would be a chipper, too. Actually, that was a very large part of my commentary early in that thread, as I was worried since my only other Spyderco S30V knife had chipped that my high dollar (for me) folder would be chippy also. Luckily, the Manix only seems to chip when I use improper technique on certain items best left unmentioned . Still, it's nice to know that someone of his stature actually values the thoughts and observations of a newbie like me on one of his products. Of course, he may see some of my observations or suggestions on making the knife better as not viable or a bad design choice, but he does listen to the ELU and take them seriously, as I'm sure many other makers do.

Also, in that post he added this:

There is also a lot to be said for letting the knife stand on its own. No hype, no heretics.

It would be nice to see the industry as a whole take that approach. I think only improvement of the products could result from that approach.

Mike

 

[Cliff Stamp]

...Sal Glesser is the only one I have interacted with at any level on the forums...

And during those interactions how many time have you seen Sal disregard a criticism of his knives because of who he is and what Spyderco has achieved and attack the character/experience of the poster. Or how many times have you seen Sal note specifically what their goals were for knives, how the steels/geometry achieve those goals, and what tests they did specifically and the results to measure those characteristics.

Compare that to Thomas and how he responds to the same issues and note how he is completely opposite. 100% lack of any detail and 100% defence based on a position of authority. This was debunked by Socrates thousands of years ago when he developed critical thinking. At the fundamental level is the complete lack of any faith based perspective in any discussion which has at its goal understanding.

Worship of course is 100% faith based. So the question you need to ask is simple - is your intent understanding or worship? When someone takes that approach to questions (listen to me because I am an authority) they are attempting to enforce a faith based perspective. Faith of course only exists, by definition, where there is a complete lack of evidence.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

This has little to do with ZDP-189 verus S30V, but it seems that a young, pre-doctoral Cliff was asked to read a book by Dale Carnegie. At the library, he got a book about steel magnate Andrew Carnegie and the rest is history.

Back to the steels:

Which problems do they solve?

S30V has more corrosion resistance, more wear resistance, and more evenly distributed carbides than 154CM. Some makers' customers love it with a thick, polished edge and some love it with a thin, toothy edge. While its heat-treatment may require more TLC than, say 440C, it can often be done at temperatures which won't drastically shorten furnace life compared to other alloys (S90V and many high-speed steels). That shouldn't matter to the knife buyer except it allows for more companies and small makers to use the steel as compared to other grades.

ZDP-189, well, I don't know too much about ZDP-189 except that I like it. I've rolled the edge, but haven't chipped the edge on this steel. Others have, so there's hope for me yet. ZDP-189 is difficult, though not impossible, to obtain in the USA which does limit our exposure to certain factory pieces, mostly kitchen cutlery in so-called Japanese styles (gyuto, yanagi, etc...) known for being both delicate and precise.

I think both steels make great pocketknives and great kitchen knives. Other steels will surpass them in some respects and they'll surpass other steels in other respects. S30V would appear to fair better in knives with thicker edges (taking maximum advantage of its vanadium carbides) and ZDP-189 would appear to work better with slightly thinner edges (with other steels going thinner than what most of us are used to using for pocketknives).

And that's almost a quarter of what I've got to say about that.

 

[db]

I find this very funny. If you just happen to question or disagree with Cliff or one of his followers you are attacked personally and for your view, accused of any and all ill intent they can think of and harassed endlessly. This has happened to many people on this forum so severely that they have chosen to leave and or quit posting. And they call me a hypocrite. I will say it’s going to be much nicer to be on the ignore list rather than the hit list.

 

[Kohai999]

S30V has more corrosion resistance, more wear resistance, and more evenly distributed carbides than 154CM. Some makers' customers love it with a thick, polished edge and some love it with a thin, toothy edge. While its heat-treatment may require more TLC than, say 440C, it can often be done at temperatures which won't drastically shorten furnace life compared to other alloys (S90V and many high-speed steels). That shouldn't matter to the knife buyer except it allows for more companies and small makers to use the steel as compared to other grades.

ZDP-189, well, I don't know too much about ZDP-189 except that I like it. I've rolled the edge, but haven't chipped the edge on this steel. Others have, so there's hope for me yet. ZDP-189 is difficult, though not impossible, to obtain in the USA which does limit our exposure to certain factory pieces, mostly kitchen cutlery in so-called Japanese styles (gyuto, yanagi, etc...) known for being both delicate and precise.

I think both steels make great pocketknives and great kitchen knives...... .....and ZDP-189 would appear to work better with slightly thinner edges (with other steels going thinner than what most of us are used to using for pocketknives).

1. I have not personally noted the problems with S30V that others have......but....have heard from more than a few makers that heat treatment is more demanding than ATS34 and 440c, and that it is MUCH harder to finish and grind.

2. While I am absolutely amazed by the SHARP edge holding capacity of ZDP, of the 4 knives that I have owned with it, two have shown serious propensity to staining/pitting, but not "rusting". This leaves me a bit perplexed.

Now-on Cliff....

1. Cliff has often pointed to Phil Wilson's use of 420 in kitchen knives as a blanket statement about matching steel to useage....guess what-Mr. Wilson does not offer 420 anymore. He has switched to 154CPM due to this steel being..."a significant upgrade from the 420 series". Without faith and respect for this statement(one that I agree with), I should be questioning it, even though my personal experience dictates it as truth?

2. Cashen has not put forth any opinions on stainless steel because he does not work with it. He has told me this point blank. Cliff continues to bend his amazingly clear writings on "hype and metallurgy" to his personal agenda.

3. db-Cliff's acolytes are USUALLY newbies, and he offers them the perception of a shining beacon in the darkness that often accompanies the confusion of the many choices available on the cutlery market. Cliff is not as objective as he would have you think. He takes freebie knives, in exchange for his time in using them, and the subsequent write-ups. Consumer Reports, he is not.

4. He IS directly attacking Thomas in his above statement. Anyone who thinks otherwise has sub-standard reading and comprehension skills.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[thombrogan]

2. While I am absolutely amazed by the SHARP edge holding capacity of ZDP, of the 4 knives that I have owned with it, two have shown serious propensity to staining/pitting, but not "rusting". This leaves me a bit perplexed.

With 3% carbon or thereabouts, I'm surprized it does as well as it does. Haven't seen pitting on my pocketknife, but it doesn't cut food.

 

[Kohai999]

With 3% carbon or thereabouts, I'm surprized it does as well as it does. Haven't seen pitting on my pocketknife, but it doesn't cut food.

I know about the extremely high carbon, Thom, but the spotting/pitting is so incongruous, ie, with the kitchen knives, you never know when it is going to start, and when it does, it is very stubborn to remove. It is almost as if there are pockets of carbon/iron within the matrix that are completely out of solution, without any chromium "protection".

It is hard to explain, but easy to show. I am pretty sure that anyone who has used them for kitchen work knows what I am talking about.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Satrang]

I've worked for years on stainless steels. Pitting resistance has quite a bit to do with Molybdenum content which ZDP has very little. It is balanced on the chromium side to form a high chromium carbide content and have a matrix capable of 64 plus HRC. A matrix capable of that hardness does not have optimum corrosion resistance. I have seen it's matrix carbon content in a report generated 18 years ago. It is stainless but it's matrix chromium content is just over this threshold. I'm not trying to bash the grade since it is truly unique in hardness and carbide content but that has a price. Heat treatable stainless steels are simple. You have Corrosion resistance, hardness, and wear resistance. You can maximize any two at a time at the expense of the other. You can balance all three for general purpose uses but are limited to the overally level all can go to at once.

 

[Kohai999]

Pitting resistance has quite a bit to do with Molybdenum content which ZDP has very little. It is balanced on the chromium side to form a high chromium carbide content and have a matrix capable of 64 plus HRC. A matrix capable of that hardness does not have optimum corrosion resistance.

I did not know that moly was of integral importance to pitting resistance, I did know that it increases strength, hardness, hardenability, and toughness.

I have seen it's matrix carbon content in a report generated 18 years ago. It is stainless but it's matrix chromium content is just over this threshold You have Corrosion resistance, hardness, and wear resistance. You can maximize any two at a time at the expense of the other. You can balance all three for general purpose uses but are limited to the overally level all can go to at once.

It has 20 points of chromium. That is at least 3 points higher than any other stainless steel. It seems to me at 3 points carbon, 20 points chromium, that you would have corrosion resistance, and hardness, but the reality is closer to hardness and wear resistance. It works wonderfully in thin edge configurations, seems not optimal for thicker edge configurations. At any rate, for hard use knives, seeing really rough conditions, I would recommend the 154CPM as the best "all around" steel currently available.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Satrang]

In stainless steels there is an equation (easy to find on the net) called the PREN. It is the Pitting Resistance Equivalency Number.

%CR + 3.3 times % Molybdenum + 16 times % Nitrogen = PREN

ZDP at 20% CR only is essentially 20
154CM 14CR,4Mo, no Nitrogen is 27.2
S30V 14 CR, 2Mo,.1 Nitrogen is 23.6

This is a general equation but shows how the different elements are weighted by their effect on pitting resistance. The metallurgical reasons are quite complex as they play out in the matrix but the effect is well known and the equation sound.

 

[kja]

zpd is good when you need a very sharp knife. It can be a delicate edge though and needs to be cared for. I have seen zpd and cowry-x being hardened to 66 and 68 for the cowry and both are tuff although cant be used for things like roofing or carpet but with proper geometry could get as sharp as you could imagine and hold it for a very long time.

sorry this being my first post. I just dont understand why thom you say "so called"? I would never want a very hard pocket knife like this but I dont want a s30v kitchen knife either. my 2cents