ZDP-189 vs S30V

[thombrogan]

1. Cliff has often pointed to Phil Wilson's use of 420 in kitchen knives as a blanket statement about matching steel to useage....guess what-Mr. Wilson does not offer 420 anymore. He has switched to 154CPM due to this steel being..."a significant upgrade from the 420 series". Without faith and respect for this statement(one that I agree with), I should be questioning it, even though my personal experience dictates it as truth?

Don't know where you're going with this one, Steven. Yes, both Cliff and Phil have said such things. Then Phil tried AEB-L, 12C27M, and CPM154 and his mind changed. That was recently, wasn't it? Perhaps years after both Cliff and Phil were big on 420HC? I know of a lady who just found out the joys of cutting with a gyuto after decades of cutting with German-style cutlery. If I wrote about her preference for German-style chef knives last week a week ago, would you be attacking me for her changing her mind yesterday and my not omnisciently writing otherwise last week?

Cashen has not put forth any opinions on stainless steel because he does not work with it. He has told me this point blank. Cliff continues to bend his amazingly clear writings on "hype and metallurgy" to his personal agenda.

Steven,

It appears that Cliff dragged Cashen's name into this to provide an example of a maker who says it's a disservice to take his word for the truth. Everything in the context of the example suggests Stamp was writing about Cashen's disdain for using an appeal to authority to replace the use of facts and logic when making a point and nothing suggests your most beloved Newfie shoved Kevin into the lions' den to discuss stainless steels.

Would it be correct to guess you saw Cliff's name, got enraged, and only saw irritating buzzwords in his post or are you purposefully throwing out such a red herring because he (Cliff) won't ESAD as fast as you want?

 

[Kohai999]

Would it be correct to guess you saw Cliff's name, got enraged, and only saw irritating buzzwords in his post or are you purposefully throwing out such a red herring because he (Cliff) won't ESAD as fast as you want?

Thom,

1. My main point is that we are all learning new things every day. I read Cliff extoll the virtues of Phil Wilson's 420 as recently as 40 days or so, ago. I contacted Phil this weekend to request a knife commission, and he informed me that he is using 154CPM now. Cool, but you don't see Cliff re-writing all his past posts to clarify this, do you. THAT would be the responsible thing to do.

Although Cliff knows a lot about steel and knives, he REALLY overshadows this knowledge by beating those lesser learned than himself with big words, and by fighting stupid fights, including insulting those that can increase the worth of BladeForums in general by participating, but refuse to be bullied.

2. Cliff argues with just about everybody, including Kevin Cashen, so it seems incongruous to constantly reference him out of context. Which he does, don't make me go back and snag the quotes, please!

I like Kevin, have chatted with him on and off for over 5 years, and own 3 of his pieces. Understand what he writes and why he writes it. Don't understand why Cliff twists his words-THAT pisses me off, for starters.

3. Cliff directly attacks Thomas in his above statement. Thomas is at SHOT right now, so he can't defend himself "in person", as it were. I'd take a bullet for Thomas, so am standing in until he can address this himself. Taking cheap shots at my friends is a guaranteed way to motivate me in negative directions.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

S30V would appear to fair better in knives with thicker edges (taking maximum advantage of its vanadium carbides) and ZDP-189 would appear to work better with slightly thinner edges (with other steels going thinner than what most of us are used to using for pocketknives).

The interesting thing about that is that there is no way you can actually argue that from a materials perspective. The carbide volume (and size of aggregates) is much larger in ZDP-189 thus it has to demand a greater edge angle for stability. However what is compensating is the higher hardness and generally greater focus and coherent designs of the ZDP-189 knives, Spyderco in particular. The heat treatment is also a big factor, 55 HRC S30V vs 65 HRC ZDP-189 is kind of a lopsided comparison which makes S30V look a lot worse than it is actually capable of performing. I would really like to see S30V get the same care Landes outlines for stainless steels and then test drive it.

As for power of public speaking, I have read a number of those books mainly as I was interested in the psychology and I have relatives who have that as their career (motivational speakers, etc.) . Basically the method comes down to treating the people you are speaking to as idiots, assuming they don't have the intelligence to understand facts and logic and thus you have to persuade them to listen to you because you are an authority, a nice person, entertaining, or similar (or of course the counter arguement is delivered by satan). However, in general I assume people have the intelligence to understand a coherent fact based arguement. If they choose not to listen and just live in wonderland then that is fine. There will always be Barnum's selling snake oil and there will always be people who want miracles and will never demand proof for obvious reasons.

"I mean the super duper strength given to the edge, and the blade as a whole (and perhaps even magic powers to the weilder) brought about by the compressive forces introduced by an expanding martensite edge being pulled into an arch by a pearlitic spine. It is this yin and yang of a compressed edge and tensile stressed spine that makes these swords capable of cutting through machine gun barrels and still be able to cleanly slice a silk scarf dropped upon it or a lotus blossom floated against it." -- Cashen

This is yet another example of a very popular "fact" used by many "authorities" which as Cashen has pointed out has little basis in reality. Cashen being an excellent example of a critical thinker. There are lots of such makers, Martin, Wilson, Johnston, Kirk, Glesser, Busse, etc. . Critical thinkers also always demand their audience be critical thinkers as well.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It has 20 points of chromium. That is at least 3 points higher than any other stainless steel. It seems to me at 3 points carbon, 20 points chromium, that you would have corrosion resistance, and hardness, but the reality is closer to hardness and wear resistance.

It doesn't work that way, it isn't the amount of chromium in the steel, it is the amount of chromium dissolved in the austenite and which stays dissolved and doesn't precipitate out. The carbon content of ZDP-189 is high and it directly lowers the free chromium, you can see this clearly by looking at the tie-line composition as I noted months ago comparing various stainless steels and noting how steels with far lower chroimum could have far high corrosion resistance because of the C/Cr balance, 12C27M vs 440C for example. This was based on Verhoeven's work. Kel_aa provided a published paper which used the same viewpoint on different steels.

I contacted Phil this weekend to request a knife commission, and he informed me that he is using 154CPM now. Cool, but you don't see Cliff re-writing all his past posts to clarify this, do you.

I used Phil as an example of a maker who used 420HC when high carbide steels were available and yet 420HC was still the superior choice. 52100 over D2 for example is the exact same comparison as 420HC vs 154CM. I was not aware Wilson was not offering 420HC anymore, I will email him shortly to discuss his perspective, and does he actually feel that 154CM is a direct replacement - because it certainly is not. He could of course just be switching markets, moving towards difference performance goals, or any number of other reasons for a change which would not conflict with the origional reference - which was directly factual at the time they were made. But of course if he no longer offers it I will no longer use him as a reference for its use in high quality custom knives, I will just switch to Landes. Note AEB-L, and the other sandvik steels are the same class of materials, so you can not praise AEB-L and sub-par class 420HC without being in severe contradiction.

It appears that Cliff dragged Cashen's name into this to provide an example of a maker who says it's a disservice to take his word for the truth.

Specifically, ANYONE's word with that perspective. To again be very clear, the minute anyone makes an authority based arguement they are defining their perspective as to have no basic in facts/logic or implying it is beyond your ability to comprehend. Cashen does neither, nor does Glesser, Busse, Wilson, Martin, Landes, Kirk, Johnston, etc. . Thomas constantly argues principles based on the fact that some maker, or group of makers supports them with no facts/logic. I used Cashen as a reference as someone who points out that you can find many things said by makers and groups of makers which are complete nonsense and thus Thomas's arguement is without merit because his fundamental presupposition is wrong. Cashen is very clear that the industy is full of hype and misinformation and much of it spread by makers/manufacturers. I would encourage Thomas to make the thread he noted in the above and start it on SwordForums in the metallurgy forum and see just how much nonsense is spread and how it can be directly refuted with actual evidence. There is in fact multiple threads running right now on that forum noting this exact problem.

-Cliff

 

[Phil Wilson]

Gentlemen,
This has nothing to do with comparing CPM S30V to ZDP 189 but-------
I saw my name mentioned here and noticed some things I said years ago and also some things I said just recently repeated on this forum. That is fine and no problem but should shed some light and offer some clarifications. I have been using 420HC (.5%) carbon for Chef’s knives for probably 15 years. I always try to match the steel to the use and. As a maker I also consider the fabrication issues. I liked and still like 420HC for Chef’s knives because it is easy to heat treat, takes a nice finish, is very tough, easy to sharpen and I was able to get the steel in shapes and dimensions that save me time in the rough shaping of the blade. I have made Chef’s knives with 10V, 90V and 30V and these steels also make great knives and have the advantage of better edge holding over 420HC. This is due to the carbide content and increased hardness. The problem with these steels is that the fininishing problems are compounded due to the large surface area on a Chef’s knife. I can make 3 hunting style knives with the above CPM steels in the same time it takes to make one large Chef’s knife. So again all things considered 420HC for years has been my favorite steel for this application. The two problems I did have with 420HC were the limit in attainable hardness ( about 57 RC for the material I have been using) and the need for an oil quench to get that maximum hardness. This last year I experimented with AEB-L and CPM 154 ( a new one for me) to see if I could find a steel that had all qualities of 420HC but would give some additional hardness to provide better edge holding. AEB-L seemed to fit this requirement but I am still working on the ideal heat treatment for it. Availability is also a problem at this time. I found that CPM 154 was very easy to heat treat, easier in fact than 154CM, 420HC, or AEB-L (my opinion) . It is an air quench steel and I can use Turco for de-carb protection. So the heat treat eliminates the requirement for foil and oil quench. It is easy to get RC 60/61 and toughness is still high enough for a Chef’s knife application at that hardness. Finishing seems to be about equal to 420HC. I have made several Chef’s with this steel and tested them in my own kitchen. Edge holding is improved over 420 and it is still very easy to sharpen. I can get the steel in sizes and quantities that I need. So given all the above I made the statement that: “CPM 154 is an upgrade over 420HC for a Chef’s knife” What I should have said is that CPM 154 is an upgrade over 420 HC for a Chef’s knife for Phil Wilson. That would have been closer to the truth. I just made this decision to change steels recently and am changing my web site to reflect this information.

You will note I am sure, that the above is full of my opinions --and this thread is full of objections to people taking other’s opinions as facts—I am not an authority on anything other than what works for me. PHIL

 

[Kohai999]

You will note I am sure, that the above is full of my opinions --and this thread is full of objections to people taking other’s opinions as facts—I am not an authority on anything other than what works for me. PHIL

Phil,

Thanks for the clarification, it is very much appreciated.

Cliff,

Some of what SwordForums has to offer is dead on the money. A lot of it is crap, just like here. I was really active on SwordForums back in 1999-2000, until the place got overrun by "reverse edged katana" geeks, machine gun barrel cutting questions, and an excess of filler to quality ratio.

Are you a Moderator on SwordForums? It has been too long since I checked it out.

Thomas has NO reason to go to SwordForums, as Kai/Kershaw does not make swords.

Better yet, and an even more reasonable request is that YOU personally fly to Blade to make a presentation on Metallurgy, explaining to the entire cutlery industry how misguided they are.

I will personally arrange for a space on the docket so you may present your findings, and purchase your ticket from Newfoundland to Atlanta, as long as you can locate one for less than $750.00.

Quote SwordForums all you want, but if you want an even better source to quote from, try Don Fogg's forum. That place is the REAL deal, lots of meat, not lots of shiiite.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Thomas W]

Wow where to start.

SHOT seems like it will be a bunch of fun. Always a good time when the industry can get together and show off their stuff. Received a nice cut on the thumb today during set up, man that 13C26 can slice with the best of them.

As a blindingly obvious example which can NOT be debated, there are conflicts in the cutlery industry about steels/performance.

What conflicts? Who's debating Cliff? You and a few on BF's? There are not many conflicts among manufacturers. You seem to be the one of the few with the issue.

Cashen being an excellent example of a critical thinker. There are lots of such makers, Martin, Wilson, Johnston, Kirk, Glesser, Busse, etc. . Critical thinkers also always demand their audience be critical thinkers as well.

Have you ever met these folks Cliff? Talked face to face? I'm not sure you are qualified to say what there demands on their audience truly are. Some industry leaders come off quite different in person than they do in a book or an email. Trust me on this Cliff.

Cashen is very clear that the industry is full of hype and misinformation and much of it spread by makers/manufacturers.

It seems strange to me that you seem to be on a quest to right the so-called wrongs with the cutlery industry.
I don't know many companies that shout misinformation from the rooftops? Maybe you could compile a list for us?

Cliff, Kershaw does our own independent testing on steel, locks, etc... We don't publish the results of those tests. Spyderco does their own sets of testing, they don't make them public either. Lot's of companies test their knives, and competitors products alike. Please don't fault us just because we don't furnish them on the forums. Maybe Sal shares his results with you, which would explain your respect for them. If you think we lie and hype because we don't, so be it, but we do our homework. We have also shared test results with few as well.
You are one of the few individuals worldwide that I hear these types comments from, which I guess is a good thing.

With the show going on, I won't have much time on BF's for the next week or so, please excuse me for my absence.

 

[Satrang]

"Better yet, and an even more reasonable request is that YOU personally fly to Blade to make a presentation on Metallurgy, explaining to the entire cutlery industry how misguided they are.

I will personally arrange for a space on the docket so you may present your findings, and purchase your ticket from Newfoundland to Atlanta, as long as you can locate one for less than $750.00."

Don't expect this to happen. This topic has been brought up before with no interest.

 

[Larrin]

I think a seminar by Roman Landes would be interesting supposing the money could be put together and his verbal English skills are good enough.

Edit: Though I guess that's a little off topic.

 

[STR]

I've done a search but haven't found what i've looking for, Please any of you steel gurus share some knowledge as I don't know much about ZDP-189 because not many makers use it but it seems pretty expensive as the leek or sypderco adds a good premium when the knife carries a blade of ZDP. Is it any good compared to S30V. How about edge holding, easiness to sharp or blade chipping?

ZDP189 is a fairly new steel to the industry. Like ATS34 when it first came out and also like calculators when they first came out you pay a premium to get it when its new. Differences in price can relate very easily to demand also. Right now the supply is low compared to the demand as I understand it regarding ZDP189. Those differences in price also relate to the difficulties involving heat treatment and workability among other things so in the end it costs more to make so it costs more to the end line user if you have to go through more materials and time to make the product from start to finish into a cutting tool.

As with anything involving the human element there are always variables no matter how much science you apply to a subject. Differences in performance from one thing to another whether that thing be an automobile tire, an automobile itself or a cutting tool will be as varied as the wind direction from one day to the next. Even people that do a test and then repeat that same test can see differences from one day to the next or at least feel that they do whether that be true or not. In short we do the best we can.

I think when someone does the best that they can do in regards to research and then makes a statement that they should be given the benefit of the doubt regarding their honesty in what was said or written. We as readers or listeners of said statements should expect that no one sets out to put a statement out there in the public after spending money and time to research it first did so to promote hype. I doubt they paid for research to make that hype. In fact if you are going to just write or publish hype why spend money for the research first?

Science like faith are, in my opinion based on belief in what you see and believe always means there is room for doubt. It also means its limited to the person or persons doing the seeing. I mean I can see a car accident at the exact same time you see it and we'll both give confilcting reports to a police officer afterwards. Is one guy just hype and the other factual or is that ever present 'variable' showing its ugly face again?

The fact is none of us knows $hit! Knowing is something dangerous to say about any subject even with science. What we call fact today may one day be known to be not so factual. Perspectives have a lot to do with what is scientific fact. It used to be scientific fact that man couldn't fly. If you doubt perspective plays a part in what we call fact. Watch court tv some. I see trials and convictions overturned from new science finding out old science was not so good every week. We can't close the book and call it a done deal about performance of any steel whether science is involved or not. Are we moving forward? I like to think we are and that we have when it comes to cutlery steels but it is all relative to your own perspective when how it rates in your own hands while using it yourself.

In short the best way to answer your questions about performance between both is to buy you one of each and see which you like the best after using it yourself. I can't tell you and neither can anyone else with absolute certainty. But before you come to final conclusions be sure to repeat the uses because you may end up going the other way after sleeping on it. Thats the human variable again.

STR

 

[aberg]

STR, your grasp of science makes me feel so much better about my limited understanding. Barring huge and sudden mutations man still can not fly. We can however build machines which can and do carry us. As an ex-LEO (emphasis on EX) with several years of experience I can assure you that it is extremely rare (I never saw it happen in over six years) that either party in an accident knows exactly what actually happened. I can also promise you that , at least in this country, the outcome of trials, torts divorces etc. have absolutely nothing to do with facts. Also as a human anything I do involves the human element and yet I KNOW that when I do math 2=2 3=3 pi=3.14...etc.. Further if an imbecile does the best they can do in regards to research should they also be given the benefit of the doubt? Enough ranting for now I thought I KNEW so many things like my name, where I live, that gravity exists among many others. I have to go figure out what the hell is going on.

 

[thombrogan]

If you can compare carving your name using ZDP-189 and S30V and get back to us, that'd be cool.

 

[aberg]

Uh-huh, sure. I didn't mean to hijack the thread as it has remained so on point so far.

 

[thombrogan]

It was a way to tie the thread drift back to the topic and ignore the retrogressing strides in epistemology for laymen.

Now to drift further off course, but still relate to the original topic:

How much does the hardness measured by RC testing equipment (Rockwell C scale, not the soft drink) go towards increasing edge stability or allowing shortcomings to be exposed?

 

[STR]

(I never saw it happen in over six years) that either party in an accident knows exactly what actually happened.

Exactly my point. My dad used to say there are always three sides to every story. Yours, mine and the truth somewhere in between which you are lucky to ever find. He was an x LEO also. Actually I come from a long line of those x LEOs.

You picked up on my point exactly though I admit I am pushing things a bit in regards to some things; as my grasp of science is very primitive. I believe in keeping things simple though and although science is important it isnt' the end all answer to everything when the human element is involved and not written in stone either. Old science taught that a heavier than air object could not fly, as it was a physical impossibility. Someone had the balls to question that and didn't buy it and now new science says otherwise and we see that it is not only possible but going on everyday of the week. That was my point regarding men and flying and science.

What I see is a bunch of guys fighting over who's perception is right around here like it really matters. Then of course everyone forgets the original topic and gets all caught up in who can present the strongest case focused on other's comments. This gets so old as does all the name dropping (read, putting words and opinions in people's mouths) and picking apart comments by others rather than expressing your opinion and moving on. But thats too much to ask isn't it? Instead what we get is folks having a problem with the opinion of someone else, and then wanting to instill their values and opinions on the ones that have a different opinion and then go on to call those differing opinions silly, or hype or whatever the case may be for them as they see it. But hey, its better than anything on the boob tube for the time being so I watch it. Sometimes I'm actually stupid enough to join in too because I'd forgotten what my foot tastes like I guess.


STR

 

[Satrang]

Kohaii,

Any word on your offer from Cliff to go to Blade. I'll go to Blade this year just to see that.

 

[Kohai999]

Kohaii,

Any word on your offer from Cliff to go to Blade. I'll go to Blade this year just to see that.

Satrang-It's Kohai, means "junior student" in Japanese.

No response.

Heck, if someone else wants to approach him, I'm all for putting $500.00 in to fly Roman Landes out to Blade, if Cliff is too afraid/"has no interest" to go.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Satrang]

Sorry about the spelling error. Double hit the i. Fat fingers.

I'm a firm believer if you are passionate and confident about your opinions you should be willing to stand in front of anyone and state you beliefs thus opening yourself up to criticism. The internet has made it very easy to play critic without any interaction with what you are bashing. The situation has forced a lot of industry people to avoid sites like this. The message being sent is clear. If you are selling something you are biased and whatever you say must be questioned regardless of your credentials. Who wants to be a part of that?

 

[Kohai999]

The situation has forced a lot of industry people to avoid sites like this. The message being sent is clear. If you are selling something you are biased and whatever you say must be questioned regardless of your credentials. Who wants to be a part of that?

1. No worries about the spelling issue.

2. You are very right about your thoughts on some of the NEGATIVE aspects of the web. As has been said before, there is no accountability for those that just blindly critique.

You should be in a position to be able to say what you are going to say to someone's face, in person, before you start hurling it out there on the net. But, that never happens.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[hardheart]

I'm a firm believer if you are passionate and confident about your opinions you should be willing to stand in front of anyone and state you beliefs thus opening yourself up to criticism. The internet has made it very easy to play critic without any interaction with what you are bashing. The situation has forced a lot of industry people to avoid sites like this. The message being sent is clear. If you are selling something you are biased and whatever you say must be questioned regardless of your credentials. Who wants to be a part of that?

I'm a little confused, it would seem that stating your opinion on the web would open you up to far more criticism than just relaying it to anyone in earshot at Blade. It also seems a bit contradictory to say that the web does not allow for interaction, when it is followed by a statement about how several in the industry are actually avoiding the interaction (arguments, accusations, and questions) that the web allows.

The internet has increased the level of communication and information available to much of the world.

except China