Zero Tolerance Liner Lock Closures?

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regardless of issues with ZT knives. My question is why in the name of God is the knife industry stuck on (no pun intended) and still utilizing this lock type ? pretty much every lock I can think of on a folding knife comes down to wedging a piece of something against the back of the blade to hold it open . with the latest engineering and newest lock designs why would anyone want to stay with the liner/frame lock? Even Demkos new "scorpion?" lock is a marvel and 100 times better than a liner lock. The liner/frame lock is known to be the weakest crappiest locking mechanism in use nowadays. Its akin to wedging your screen door open with a door shim instead of going to Home Depot and buying a self closing/locking spring kit.

and yet we keep seeing it again and again and again. even on knives costing $1000 or more

I really don't get what the advantages are of this lock system and why we keep using/buying knives with it. maybe there is something I am not seeing ?

I like some of the designs out there but if its a frame/liner lock I wont buy it . hate the damn lock
 
Steely_Gunz said:
I actually plan on doing that in the near future when I have time to pull the knife apart. The nice thing about the 630 is that it uses a nut over a proprietary fastener.
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Yeah I thought that was kinda neat. I haven’t seen any other knives that do that I think.
 
ponykid said:
regardless of issues with ZT knives. My question is why in the name of God is the knife industry stuck on (no pun intended) and still utilizing this lock type ? pretty much every lock I can think of on a folding knife comes down to wedging a piece of something against the back of the blade to hold it open . with the latest engineering and newest lock designs why would anyone want to stay with the liner/frame lock? Even Demkos new "scorpion?" lock is a marvel and 100 times better than a liner lock. The liner/frame lock is known to be the weakest crappiest locking mechanism in use nowadays. Its akin to wedging your screen door open with a door shim instead of going to Home Depot and buying a self closing/locking spring kit.

and yet we keep seeing it again and again and again. even on knives costing $1000 or more

I really don't get what the advantages are of this lock system and why we keep using/buying knives with it. maybe there is something I am not seeing ?

I like some of the designs out there but if its a frame/liner lock I wont buy it . hate the damn lock
Click to expand...

Probably partly because it is one of the most recognizable knife locks and many people want what they know.

I kinda like them anyways.
 
Liner and frame locks are more than strong enough, when executed properly. They also work extremely well in flipper type folders. I like other lock types but they just don't do it for me like a good ti framelock.
 
Since reading this I have been into 2 stores with owners I know and tested every single ZT after telling them about this possible issue and not a single one is doing that is shown here.
 
ponykid said:
regardless of issues with ZT knives. My question is why in the name of God is the knife industry stuck on (no pun intended) and still utilizing this lock type ? pretty much every lock I can think of on a folding knife comes down to wedging a piece of something against the back of the blade to hold it open . with the latest engineering and newest lock designs why would anyone want to stay with the liner/frame lock? Even Demkos new "scorpion?" lock is a marvel and 100 times better than a liner lock. The liner/frame lock is known to be the weakest crappiest locking mechanism in use nowadays. Its akin to wedging your screen door open with a door shim instead of going to Home Depot and buying a self closing/locking spring kit.

and yet we keep seeing it again and again and again. even on knives costing $1000 or more

I really don't get what the advantages are of this lock system and why we keep using/buying knives with it. maybe there is something I am not seeing ?

I like some of the designs out there but if its a frame/liner lock I wont buy it . hate the damn lock
Click to expand...

I am willing to provide a home for any stray frame locks. The design is solid enough for my use, and if more is required I would go with a fixed blade.

n2s
 
Ok that's all great. if you like them you like them that's fair enough . I respect that.

but I am just trying to figure out what the advantage of them is . I see they are used in flippers but I think other lock systems are being fine tuned to be usable with flippers as well.
I will also admit I really like a lot of the ZT designs and I do find myself looking at a lot of framelock titanium knives. but they are finicky and if not executed perfectly they can have a lot of issues.

Not only that you have to put your fingers in the path of the blade !!! unless you have a flipper where the flipper tab acts as a finger guard which I like.
Still havnt seen a solid reason to stay with them.

I guess its as mentioned. its been an industry standard especially in lower end folders for decades and its hard to get that old production train to change tracks
 
ponykid said:
regardless of issues with ZT knives. My question is why in the name of God is the knife industry stuck on (no pun intended) and still utilizing this lock type ? pretty much every lock I can think of on a folding knife comes down to wedging a piece of something against the back of the blade to hold it open . with the latest engineering and newest lock designs why would anyone want to stay with the liner/frame lock? Even Demkos new "scorpion?" lock is a marvel and 100 times better than a liner lock. The liner/frame lock is known to be the weakest crappiest locking mechanism in use nowadays. Its akin to wedging your screen door open with a door shim instead of going to Home Depot and buying a self closing/locking spring kit.

and yet we keep seeing it again and again and again. even on knives costing $1000 or more

I really don't get what the advantages are of this lock system and why we keep using/buying knives with it. maybe there is something I am not seeing ?

I like some of the designs out there but if its a frame/liner lock I wont buy it . hate the damn lock
Click to expand...

Liner locks and frame locks are plenty strong if done right. Definitely not the weakest, crappiest lock in use nowadays. :rolleyes: I don't see how frame locks can close on you, as you have your hand wrapped around the handle, thus preventing the lockbar from unwedging. Spyderco Military does a liner lock how a liner lock should be and I've NEVER had one slip or close on me. This is after 20 years of using the Military in some form. If you don't like the frame locks or liner locks, then don't buy them. There are plenty of folks out there that will continue to do so. No different than someone choosing a certain steel over another.
 
91bravo said:
Liner locks and frame locks are plenty strong if done right. Definitely not the weakest, crappiest lock in use nowadays. :rolleyes: I don't see how frame locks can close on you, as you have your hand wrapped around the handle, thus preventing the lockbar from unwedging. Spyderco Military does a liner lock how a liner lock should be and I've NEVER had one slip or close on me. This is after 20 years of using the Military in some form. If you don't like the frame locks or liner locks, then don't buy them. There are plenty of folks out there that will continue to do so. No different than someone choosing a certain steel over another.
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I find it really depends how I am grippping and the design of the framelock whether or not that grip will make the lock failing less likely.

On many of my framelocks the lockbar falls into the crook of my fingers where almost no pressure is exerted on the lockbar.
 
ponykid said:
regardless of issues with ZT knives. My question is why in the name of God is the knife industry stuck on (no pun intended) and still utilizing this lock type ? pretty much every lock I can think of on a folding knife comes down to wedging a piece of something against the back of the blade to hold it open . with the latest engineering and newest lock designs why would anyone want to stay with the liner/frame lock? Even Demkos new "scorpion?" lock is a marvel and 100 times better than a liner lock. The liner/frame lock is known to be the weakest crappiest locking mechanism in use nowadays. Its akin to wedging your screen door open with a door shim instead of going to Home Depot and buying a self closing/locking spring kit.

and yet we keep seeing it again and again and again. even on knives costing $1000 or more

I really don't get what the advantages are of this lock system and why we keep using/buying knives with it. maybe there is something I am not seeing ?

I like some of the designs out there but if its a frame/liner lock I wont buy it . hate the damn lock
Click to expand...
Because consumers understand it, and it is easy to make (though evidently difficult to consistently do well). Also it provides crisp detent for flippers, though that can be accomplished for other locks (like hogue's X5 detent system).

I agree with you and I hate seeing so many frame and liner locks. They're fine but so many other systems out there are better.
 
Simple, if you're afraid of frame locks and liner locks, don't buy them like LHS said! I'll continue to use my CRKs/Hinderers and Militaries in confidence.
 
91bravo said:
Best post of the thread!
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:cool:

Like I said earlier, my 0561 has no lock rock and solidly passes a spine whack test. I don't recall my 0550 having any issues either.

I haven't really been all that interested in most of there recent designs so I haven't tried any recently made ones.

I have had a few Spyderco frame locks and none of them had these issues. I did have a BM framelock that had lock rock and would slip, so I sent it in and they fixed it.
 
marrenmiller said:
Because consumers understand it, and it is easy to make (though evidently difficult to consistently do well).

I agree with you and I hate seeing so many frame and liner locks. They're fine but so many other systems out there are better.
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Honestly as long as the liner or framelock is built properly it is good enough for pretty much anything I would use a folder for. I actually think they are probably some of the hardest locks to build correctly due to the fact that you not only have to get the geometry right but it has to continue to lockup well as the lock wears towards 100% lockup.

The only application where I am wary of liner or framelocks is for a self defense type folder.
 
Lapedog said:
Honestly as long as the liner or framelock is built properly it is good enough for pretty much anything I would use a folder for. I actually think they are probably some of the hardest locks to build correctly due to the fact that you not only have to get the geometry right but it has to continue to lockup well as the lock wears towards 100% lockup.

The only application where I am wary of liner or framelocks is for a self defense type folder.
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They work fine for most things you'd ever use a folder for, agreed. However they are apparently difficult to get consistently correct, and I can't think of a liner lock I'd trust my life to in the event of a defensive task, which is what I consider heavily when looking at a rugged folder. The idea of using something like an Emerson in a defensive role makes me cringe.

I can think of plenty of other folders that I would trust over the stoutest liner/frame lock.
 
91bravo said:
I still don't see how a frame lock can disengage while white knuckle cutting? I must be doing it all wrong...
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First of all I don’t generally gorilla grip my knife while using it. Secondly on many knives particularly in hammer grip my fingers are putting pressure on the lockside of the knife on the nonlocking portion. The lockbar falls into the curl of my finger where very little pressure is being exerted.

If you want to test it just stick something between your fingers while you are gripping the knife and try pushing the lockbar over.
 
I do some white knuckle cutting sometimes. I don't use the hammer grip, but there's hammer grip with the edge down and edge up. In all my 30 plus years of playing with knives, no matter what the lock, I've never had one inadvertently close on me (knock on wood). :) I guess I'm failing to see the issues at hand here, which could be considered a good thing!
 
91bravo said:
I do some white knuckle cutting sometimes. I don't use the hammer grip, but there's hammer grip with the edge down and edge up. In all my 30 plus years of playing with knives, no matter what the lock, I've never had one inadvertently close on me (knock on wood). :) I guess I'm failing to see the issues at hand here, which could be considered a good thing!
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It's not a common thing to happen under normal use, but I do make some funky cuts in my line of work where the blade is held at odd angles.

My point is that I shouldn't have to put my knife in a death grip to make sure it can't fold on me.
It's not a big deal. Mostly academic on my part. I have started carrying the 0456 more often than my other ZT frame locks. I think because it has the chunkiest Ti frame of my collection it doesn't fail.
 
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