Zero Tolerance Liner Lock Closures?

[91bravo]

I completely understand!

 

[midnight flyer]

I have to say I agree with you. Liner and frame locks work, but I think minor variances can really affect their effectiveness in my experiences. If the geometry is off, if the tension is a bit off, if they wear down a certain way over time, they can fail quite easily. Sometimes, even how hard you flick open the knife changes the strength and percentage of the lock. Plus, they are so ubiquitous that they are boring.

Thought I would get in here before this gets shut down. Always happens when the members turn on each other...

I think understanding the effect of the minor variances is the key. Our tiny little BF community that is unhappy with their line locking knives (and even that is a pretty small amount) probably represents a tiny percentage that is almost incalculable in the overall amount of liner lock knives made by so many manufacturers these days. No doubt, millions of them are made a year. Yet, how many outright accidents do we have? (I know, I know... one is too many... and it depends in if it was YOUR fingers... I know... got it.)

I use my liner lock knives for work and recreation and have had none of them fail on me. NOT TO DIMINISH THE REALITY AND THE PAIN OF THOSE THAT HAVE. I personally don't know anyone that has had lock failure on a quality knife (one of my own personal Gerbers failed), and have heard no rumor or hearsay a the gun show's knife area that have. Again, talking about quality knives, not crap. Sure, the dealers have heard of line lock failure, but they sell hundreds (a couple, thousands) of knives a year themselves from all kinds and brands of manufacturers, most of them liner locks. They claim they have no problems. Even in this litigious society, no one is suing them for lock failure trauma.

So if me and mine that also use them for their "day job" in construction can keep a liner lock on satisfactory duty for a few years, why the "frequent" failure of newer knives? The liner lock isn't the best system, but for someone that uses a knife as cutting instrument, not a pry bar, a batoning wedge, a throwing weapon, etc., it has to be workable solution simply because there are no doubt billions of liner locks out there in the market now. With that in mind, I am thinking poor implementation of the system or poor manufacture or both is the culprit here. There are no doubt 100s of millions or more liner locks out there that work just fine.

The sad thing that has been mentioned before including by me is that in my budget world, my ZTs are some of the better knives I own. I bought them based on reputation and utility value. Pretty sad that even with the small sampling here on BF they don't seem to be responding to defend either.

Robert

 

[91bravo]

Thought I would get in here before this gets shut down. Always happens when the members turn on each other...

I think understanding the effect of the minor variances is the key. Our tiny little BF community that is unhappy with their line locking knives (and even that is a pretty small amount) probably represents a tiny percentage that is almost incalculable in the overall amount of liner lock knives made by so many manufacturers these days. No doubt, millions of them are made a year. Yet, how many outright accidents do we have? (I know, I know... one is too many... and it depends in if it was YOUR fingers... I know... got it.)

I use my liner lock knives for work and recreation and have had none of them fail on me. NOT TO DIMINISH THE REALITY AND THE PAIN OF THOSE THAT HAVE. I personally don't know anyone that has had lock failure on a quality knife (one of my own personal Gerbers failed), and have heard no rumor or hearsay a the gun show's knife area that have. Again, talking about quality knives, not crap. Sure, the dealers have heard of line lock failure, but they sell hundreds (a couple, thousands) of knives a year themselves from all kinds and brands of manufacturers, most of them liner locks. They claim they have no problems. Even in this litigious society, no one is suing them for lock failure trauma.

So if me and mine that also use them for their "day job" in construction can keep a liner lock on satisfactory duty for a few years, why the "frequent" failure of newer knives? The liner lock isn't the best system, but for someone that uses a knife as cutting instrument, not a pry bar, a batoning wedge, a throwing weapon, etc., it has to be workable solution simply because there are no doubt billions of liner locks out there in the market now. With that in mind, I am thinking poor implementation of the system or poor manufacture or both is the culprit here. There are no doubt 100s of millions or more liner locks out there that work just fine.

The sad thing that has been mentioned before including by me is that in my budget world, my ZTs are some of the better knives I own. I bought them based on reputation and utility value. Pretty sad that even with the small sampling here on BF they don't seem to be responding to defend either.

Robert

Well said. I'm not so graceful with my words....

 

[Danke42]

The fact is that these "spinewhacking" threads are always about as clever as shouting Fire in a crowded theater and then claiming the stampede for the exits wasn't your fault.

Just about the only think less clever is hitching your cart to the star of some social media knife individual and thinking they're expert because they have likes.

 

[unwisefool]

Mcdonald's quality of operation is fantastic. You can travel most of the earth's surface, walk into one of their restaurants, and generally find something that tastes just as it does in your local neighborhood franchise. Granted, it is not the tastiest or healthiest stuff on the planet, but it certainly qualifies as comfort food.

n2s

I like their french fries, I can't help it

 

[Steely_Gunz]

Folding knife=broken in the middle, so if you want ultimate strength..remove that and carry a fixed blade. The convenience of being able to put it in your pocket comes with a compromise.

I think those of us making a point totally see it this way. We're not looking to try to recreate the folder into being something it's not. Hell, I've got an incredibly unsafe Cold Steel finger-guillotine Mini Bushman with their pretty impressive RAM lock to bridge that gap

Again, to keep the discussion a little more narrow and on point without going into if a car or an SUV will kill me deader on my way to McDonalds, I'm just trying to understand why ZT will fail a spine whack while other knives (many produced by the same parent company out of less expensive materials and with less polish) won't. Especially after someone here was supposedly told by a KAI rep that ZT are suppose to pass this test. Again, I'm not talking about smacking the devil out of the spine. I've got two of my five failures closing with very moderate static pressure against the knife. The other ones will fold it lightly tapped at the tip of the blade (the spot I am most likely going to bump it with a bad cut) on a cushioned surface.

As you can see from my area of the knife world I am more apt to use a khuk. That's transfers over to my pocket knife usage. It's not uncommon for me to make a snap cut with a large folder because it's muscle memory. When I do so, my grip is light around the frame letting the weight do the work. If constant pressure is needed to keep the lock safe, then that's an issue for my personal use.

 

[Pilsner]

I've got Axis locks, Triad, Compression, back lock, and yet the folding knife I have taken up with me into the mountains the last few times was....

...dramatic musical crescendo...

A dreaded, weak, crappy, LINER LOCK! Oh no! What was I thinking? Now I realise the Fallkniven PXL-WH [not made by Kershaw - ahem] was a stupid choice. Of course, it doesn't have a whisper of blade play, the lock up is rock solid, and it has never let me down. Oh well, I guess I should take something promoted and sold by Lynn Thompson from now on. When hell freezes over.

 

[marrenmiller]

Thought I would get in here before this gets shut down. Always happens when the members turn on each other...

I think understanding the effect of the minor variances is the key. Our tiny little BF community that is unhappy with their line locking knives (and even that is a pretty small amount) probably represents a tiny percentage that is almost incalculable in the overall amount of liner lock knives made by so many manufacturers these days. No doubt, millions of them are made a year. Yet, how many outright accidents do we have? (I know, I know... one is too many... and it depends in if it was YOUR fingers... I know... got it.)

I use my liner lock knives for work and recreation and have had none of them fail on me. NOT TO DIMINISH THE REALITY AND THE PAIN OF THOSE THAT HAVE. I personally don't know anyone that has had lock failure on a quality knife (one of my own personal Gerbers failed), and have heard no rumor or hearsay a the gun show's knife area that have. Again, talking about quality knives, not crap. Sure, the dealers have heard of line lock failure, but they sell hundreds (a couple, thousands) of knives a year themselves from all kinds and brands of manufacturers, most of them liner locks. They claim they have no problems. Even in this litigious society, no one is suing them for lock failure trauma.

So if me and mine that also use them for their "day job" in construction can keep a liner lock on satisfactory duty for a few years, why the "frequent" failure of newer knives? The liner lock isn't the best system, but for someone that uses a knife as cutting instrument, not a pry bar, a batoning wedge, a throwing weapon, etc., it has to be workable solution simply because there are no doubt billions of liner locks out there in the market now. With that in mind, I am thinking poor implementation of the system or poor manufacture or both is the culprit here. There are no doubt 100s of millions or more liner locks out there that work just fine.

The sad thing that has been mentioned before including by me is that in my budget world, my ZTs are some of the better knives I own. I bought them based on reputation and utility value. Pretty sad that even with the small sampling here on BF they don't seem to be responding to defend either.

Robert

I guess I have to ask then: why even require a functional lock then? I don't think anybody here cuts with the spine of their knives, or batons their knives through material. They just don't want the thing to ever be able to fold on them if there's an accident, lapse in judgment, or if they plan on including their knives in a defensive carry rotation. Most of these knives are "tactical" knives, which still carries a connotation of being usable for defense in a pinch.

It's never a bad thing to ask for something better, especially when it's been demonstrated that it exists and is readily available. I love my ZTs too, but I sure didn't like how some of them didn't have good locks. I'd throw all my money at them if they used literally anything else other than liner or frame locks, because based on my own experiences with them, they can't do them reliably enough for me to bet $200+ on one.

 

[BD_01]

This thread needs more pictures.

Definately prone to closure with spine whacks.



More concisely on topic, @firefighterguy how’d your return from ZT turn out?

 

[Rob72]

Doh! Duplicate..

 

[Rob72]

Yet, how many outright accidents do we have? (I know, I know... one is too many... and it depends in if it was YOUR fingers... I know... got it.)

I use my liner lock knives for work and recreation and have had none of them fail on me. NOT TO DIMINISH THE REALITY AND THE PAIN OF THOSE THAT HAVE. I personally don't know anyone that has had lock failure on a quality knife (one of my own personal Gerbers failed), and have heard no rumor or hearsay a the gun show's knife area that have.

Robert

I've "stepped down" to ZT, after quite a few years carrying $$$ customs (Clark, Terzuola, Yurco, Dozier, etc..) I came to realize that I had some very expensive letter openers, as I seldom used any of them, other than the ACFK, for daily tasks. On one frame lock, with significant rock, on receipt, the maker's solution was to use a prick punch to peen the lock surface up to engagement. That was the beginning of my divestment of the $450+ customs.

At present, I have:
620 (2)
630 (2)
750 (2)
350 (1)
301 (1)
200 (1)
452 (1)

Of these, 6 were purchased "used". None have rock, or will fail with either "modest" spine hits, or "modest" direct pressure to the spine.

Regarding why the frame/liner lock- they are convenient and consistent. This may well be ownership bias and habitual use, as I had consistent trouble deactivating compression locks, because of my grip. Spine locks(Triad, etc) require more grip-shift to close one-handed, resulting in more drops. I vastly prefer Spyderco's ball bearing lock, but have found it somewhat prone to locking either open or closed when heavily fouled, and have had similar experience with the Axis. Annnd, I have trouble finding a handle/blade shape that I like, with these locks. My only knife of this sort being the P'kal.

So, for something that I can use with confidence in gunk and grime, or seated at my desk, the liner is the most usable choice. YMMV, IMHO, etc.,etc..

 

[midnight flyer]

I guess I have to ask then: why even require a functional lock then? I don't think anybody here cuts with the spine of their knives, or batons their knives through material. They just don't want the thing to ever be able to fold on them if there's an accident, lapse in judgment, or if they plan on including their knives in a defensive carry rotation. Most of these knives are "tactical" knives, which still carries a connotation of being usable for defense in a pinch.

Red text highlighted.

I think you actually nailed it. When "locks" came out a million years ago I never saw the manufacturers touting their knives to be as strong or durable as a fixed knife. Sure heard a lot of owners and testers do that, though.

I look at locks on a knife like a safety device on a tool. The tool is still dangerous regardless of the safety features it might have. And if a tool was used 100% correctly all the time, and the operator was never working in poor conditions, misjudged a task requirement, was really tired but had to press on to finish a job, never slipped or lost their balance, or had a simple lapse of judgement (things on the mind: truck pmt, house pmt, Dr. pmt/visit, family obligations, other pmts, family challenges, etc.,) while working, you would most likely never need a safety device on a tool.

I learned to use knives 55 years ago when locks weren't prevalent and use my knives the same way today. Always cut away from you. Don't pry with your knife. Don't do anything but cut with your knife. Be careful about binding the blade, and if you do don't try to rock the knife out of the material.

A lock on a knife for me is like the blade brake on my saws (never cut myself without a saw brake), the guards on my table saw (learned to use a table saw without any guards), the locking clip on the back of a folding saw, the governor on the gas pedal of the dump truck, and on and on. I like that layer of protection. In decades of construction work, I have been hurt the worst when it was an accident, not from incorrect use. I am careful; I like all my digits and original equipment. Therefore, I like locks on blades, although not necessary if none of the above detailed circumstances exist.

But if they don't work as they should, like any other tool there is absolutely no reason to buy them. If you cannot depend on your tools 100% for safety and utility, then once again there is no reason to buy them. Personally, I have absolutely no use for the "cool" factor in a lock blade knife. And when a knife costs more than a 15 amp circular saw that I trust and will make me money for years... you can guess where my dough will go. This is a very black and white issue for me.

Robert

 

[bhyde]

I think those of us making a point totally see it this way. We're not looking to try to recreate the folder into being something it's not. Hell, I've got an incredibly unsafe Cold Steel finger-guillotine Mini Bushman with their pretty impressive RAM lock to bridge that gap

Again, to keep the discussion a little more narrow and on point without going into if a car or an SUV will kill me deader on my way to McDonalds, I'm just trying to understand why ZT will fail a spine whack while other knives (many produced by the same parent company out of less expensive materials and with less polish) won't. Especially after someone here was supposedly told by a KAI rep that ZT are suppose to pass this test. Again, I'm not talking about smacking the devil out of the spine. I've got two of my five failures closing with very moderate static pressure against the knife. The other ones will fold it lightly tapped at the tip of the blade (the spot I am most likely going to bump it with a bad cut) on a cushioned surface.

As you can see from my area of the knife world I am more apt to use a khuk. That's transfers over to my pocket knife usage. It's not uncommon for me to make a snap cut with a large folder because it's muscle memory. When I do so, my grip is light around the frame letting the weight do the work. If constant pressure is needed to keep the lock safe, then that's an issue for my personal use.

Sometimes people just need to be reminded that there is an alternative to weak framelocks. When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail mentality. Personally, I am all about buy and use what fits your lifestyle the best.

No idea on ZT's processes but do have insights to how some bigger companies work..Within the company I am at, there are different divisions and it almost seems like a cardinal sin to leverage information or processes from the other. I see it more of a competition like they aren't all on the same side.
Spinewhacking? Never personally seen too much benefit in the practice. I guess to know the limitations of your knife is the idea. My thinking is, if you keep the sharp side down and take care like you may get hurt, then you should be alright.
That isn't saying that I haven't cut myself but is only saying that when I have, I did something very stupid..but as far as spinwhacking, I don't judge others for doing it because I don't see the benefit just like I don't judge others that eat McDonalds, sour cream or Zucchini. The Zucchini part is a lie..I do judge if you eat that.

 

[SpySmasher]

I guess I have to ask then: why even require a functional lock then? I don't think anybody here cuts with the spine of their knives, or batons their knives through material. They just don't want the thing to ever be able to fold on them if there's an accident, lapse in judgment, or if they plan on including their knives in a defensive carry rotation.

Agreed. I asked this very question myself early in this thread without answer. Appropriately so, since the question might as well be rhetorical.

If you are going to build a locking knife it should stay locked under reasonable use. If your knife can't stay open after a light tap on the spine, you haven't made a locking knife, frame or otherwise.

I have a feeling that half the "defenders" here have some kind of conditioned response to the words "spine whack" and haven't even bothered to find out what is actually being discussed in this thread.

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

None of these locks has ever failed on me:



I know, you've all heard this before, but I cut with the sharp side of the blade. I don't stab with folders, unless there is a very compelling reason. In fact, I really don't ever stab, period. I don't trust the safety of my fingers to any locking mechanism. Even on locking folders, I use the blade in a way that puts all of the pressure on the cutting edge, not the spine.

I am aware that you like locks as an added measure of safety, and I get that. You are concerned about the occasional, unintended bump on the spine of the blade. So am I, so I am very careful about how I use my knives. I don't swing them around willy-nilly this way and that. I am purposeful, and I take my time. Again, there may arise situations that require speed more than precision, such as cutting a seat-belt to save someone from a burning car. Personally, I have never been in that situation, and I dare say the majority of members here are in the same boat. My wife was, sort of. Came up on a crash, and the driver was trapped by her seat-belt (no fire, though). She used the humble Victorinox Classic to free the woman (and her lock didn't fail). But, that kind of thing is rare, and what are the chances that a member of Bladeforums happens to beat the emergency responders to a fiery crash? Occasionally, maybe. And, if you were, you won't be using a stabbing motion, I hope. So, really, when does it become necessary to stab? (I am aware of the "tactical" possibility, but again, who here has actually used a knife in SD? I bet it's not many.) When is it so urgent to use a knife that you can't be somewhat cautious and avoid spine pressure? Rarely, if ever.

Maybe I'm wrong, and there are a majority of members here that are stabbing car doors and people, slashing around at seat-belts in burning cars, and otherwise putting these kind of stresses on their blades, and need a monstrous, infallible lock. If so, enlighten me, please.

And, as far as the claim that the back-lock is so superior to a frame lock, the one lock I have had fail was a back lock, because back-locks rely on the lock bar holding a relatively small triangle at the back of the blade, and it broke off. It was a Kershaw, too, not some nameless gas station special. Any lock is able to fail. That's why I don't rely on them.

 

[SpySmasher]

... Any lock is able to fail. That's why I don't rely on them.

Yes, great, but that is not the point of this thread. It is about the specific use case of some ZT frame locks failing under a light spine tap. No complainant is asking for a monstrous lock capable of piercing car doors, they're asking for a moderately capable lock. Yet nearly every "defender" is using straw-man arguments:

"Spine whacking is boloney" - this is not spine whacking.
"I'm always careful" - then why carry a locking knife?
"Carry a fixed blade" - I don't need a fixed blade, I need a locking folder.
"My frame locks don't fail this test" - Neither do mine but the evidence that some do is undeniable.

I genuinely don't understand the resistance that some people have to accepting that this specific situation is problematic.

 

[Pilsner]

Yes, great, but that is not the point of this thread. It is about the specific use case of some ZT frame locks failing under a light spine tap. No complainant is asking for a monstrous lock capable of piercing car doors, they're asking for a moderately capable lock. Yet nearly every "defender" is using straw-man arguments:

"Spine whacking is boloney" - this is not spine whacking.
"I'm always careful" - then why carry a locking knife?
"Carry a fixed blade" - I don't need a fixed blade, I need a locking folder.
"My frame locks don't fail this test" - Neither do mine but the evidence that some do is undeniable.

I genuinely don't understand the resistance that some people have to accepting that this specific situation is problematic.

I’ve no objection to any of that. But a few posts later on in the thread made some fairly spurious claims about both frame and liner locks in general. Some people, myself included, were responding to that.

 

[91bravo]

Yes, great, but that is not the point of this thread. It is about the specific use case of some ZT frame locks failing under a light spine tap. No complainant is asking for a monstrous lock capable of piercing car doors, they're asking for a moderately capable lock. Yet nearly every "defender" is using straw-man arguments:

"Spine whacking is boloney" - this is not spine whacking.
"I'm always careful" - then why carry a locking knife?
"Carry a fixed blade" - I don't need a fixed blade, I need a locking folder.
"My frame locks don't fail this test" - Neither do mine but the evidence that some do is undeniable.

I genuinely don't understand the resistance that some people have to accepting that this specific situation is problematic.

ANYTHING is prone to fail, no matter what it is. I understand that lemons do slip out. In my experiences, I've never had any problems out of my ZTs, CRKs, Hinderers or any other locking mechanisms for that matter. I hate that others have had it happen to them, but to lump all framelocks and liner locks as "inferior" locks, is just utter nonsense. It's funny how these "inferior" locks are very abundant in many of the knives that you see.

 

[SpySmasher]

I’ve no objection to any of that. But a few posts later on in the thread made some fairly spurious claims about both frame and liner locks in general. Some people, myself included, were responding to that.

Ok, I understand. I responded to that, too. However, the responses I listed have been rolling in since this thread started. I didn't understand those then and, if this is still case, don't get it now.

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

Yes, great, but that is not the point of this thread. It is about the specific use case of some ZT frame locks failing under a light spine tap. No complainant is asking for a monstrous lock capable of piercing car doors, they're asking for a moderately capable lock. Yet nearly every "defender" is using straw-man arguments:

"Spine whacking is boloney" - this is not spine whacking.
"I'm always careful" - then why carry a locking knife?
"Carry a fixed blade" - I don't need a fixed blade, I need a locking folder.
"My frame locks don't fail this test" - Neither do mine but the evidence that some do is undeniable.

I genuinely don't understand the resistance that some people have to accepting that this specific situation is problematic.

I get it. I understand that people feel strongly about this. I was giving my reasons why, when I read threads that say "Brand XXX knife failed a spine-whack test" or "I was hammering my brand YYY folding knife through a brick, and the lock failed", I don't pay attention, and don't feel it is the end of the world. Honestly, if there were as many liner/frame lock failures causing injury as is implied could happen in some of these threads, I don't believe for a second that companies who are in business to keep customers and make money wouldn't change their designs ASAP.

EDIT - There was an inadvertent quote in my original post here. That was not intended. I have removed it.