Zero Tolerance Liner Lock Closures?

[SpySmasher]

@Kbrasmodeler Gotcha.

 

[Lapedog]

As a matter of information, and in response to the "Model T" analogy, I'll point out that the frame lock is a relatively modern design and came into being as a result of Chris Reeve's desire for an integral lock. Obviously, the lock has evolved away from that initial design concept -- even CRK are using ceramic ball inserts on their frames -- but as it regards the initial design concept, the frame lock remains unsurpassed.

That Klecker lock is another neat way to do an integral lock.

I agree with you and think you are getting at the root of the benefits of a liner/framelocks. The linerlock was such a great invention because it took a part of folding knives that was already part of them, the liner, and formed a lock by simply bending it over. It didn’t add any new components to the knife. (Well, detent ball and a few minor things)

The genius of the framelock was Chris Reeve decided why use a liner at all? I mean think about the components of a minimalist framelock. Two scales, one with a lock, blade, two washers, pivot, one standoff and a clip.

That is what makes these locks so appealing is they are simple in concept even if not so in execution.

 

[rogatsby]

Red text highlighted.

I think you actually nailed it. When "locks" came out a million years ago I never saw the manufacturers touting their knives to be as strong or durable as a fixed knife. Sure heard a lot of owners and testers do that, though.

I look at locks on a knife like a safety device on a tool. The tool is still dangerous regardless of the safety features it might have. And if a tool was used 100% correctly all the time, and the operator was never working in poor conditions, misjudged a task requirement, was really tired but had to press on to finish a job, never slipped or lost their balance, or had a simple lapse of judgement (things on the mind: truck pmt, house pmt, Dr. pmt/visit, family obligations, other pmts, family challenges, etc.,) while working, you would most likely never need a safety device on a tool.

I learned to use knives 55 years ago when locks weren't prevalent and use my knives the same way today. Always cut away from you. Don't pry with your knife. Don't do anything but cut with your knife. Be careful about binding the blade, and if you do don't try to rock the knife out of the material.

A lock on a knife for me is like the blade brake on my saws (never cut myself without a saw brake), the guards on my table saw (learned to use a table saw without any guards), the locking clip on the back of a folding saw, the governor on the gas pedal of the dump truck, and on and on. I like that layer of protection. In decades of construction work, I have been hurt the worst when it was an accident, not from incorrect use. I am careful; I like all my digits and original equipment. Therefore, I like locks on blades, although not necessary if none of the above detailed circumstances exist.

But if they don't work as they should, like any other tool there is absolutely no reason to buy them. If you cannot depend on your tools 100% for safety and utility, then once again there is no reason to buy them. Personally, I have absolutely no use for the "cool" factor in a lock blade knife. And when a knife costs more than a 15 amp circular saw that I trust and will make me money for years... you can guess where my dough will go. This is a very black and white issue for me.

Robert

Everything you say is true, and much respect for your age and experience. But the point is, if there are better locks, why use ones that are more prone to fail? I know a bunch of people will jump in and say how solid their liner and frame locks are, but just look at the locks and how they lock up. There is not much room for error. And that is why I believe some ZT knives are suffering failures. Again, just look at the locks and how they lock up, and the physics behind how they work. It's basic science. There just is not a lot of room for error or variance.

Also, talking about the times where there were no locks, or talking about fixed blades, is simply not helpful. This thread is talking about folding knives with locks. It's the technology we have today, and we should be free to talk about the best technology available to us. In my opinion, liner/frame locks are not the best solution. If done right, do they work? Of course. But they are inherently more prone to failure just due to basic physics.

 

[GermanyChris]

I'm sure part of the popularity of the line/frame lock is they're in the public domain.

 

[rogatsby]

I'm sure part of the popularity of the line/frame lock is they're in the public domain.

That may play a part. But my suspicion is that they are really popular because they aid in one-handed use, fidgeting, flicking, "smooth" action, etc.

 

[Chariotz4]

Everything you say is true, and much respect for your age and experience. But the point is, if there are better locks, why use ones that are more prone to fail? I know a bunch of people will jump in and say how solid their liner and frame locks are, but just look at the locks and how they lock up. There is not much room for error. And that is why I believe some ZT knives are suffering failures. Again, just look at the locks and how they lock up, and the physics behind how they work. It's basic science. There just is not a lot of room for error or variance.

Also, talking about the times where there were no locks, or talking about fixed blades, is simply not helpful. This thread is talking about folding knives with locks. It's the technology we have today, and we should be free to talk about the best technology available to us. In my opinion, liner/frame locks are not the best solution. If done right, do they work? Of course. But they are inherently more prone to failure just due to basic physics.

Liner locks and frame locks may not be the world's strongest type of locking mechanism for a folding knife objectively when compared to other locks, but in my personal experience and usage, they have performed adequately for myself at the very least - as in, the lock didn't fail in the course of me cutting things. For myself, given that my occupation involves me having to cut open strapping to open lifts of lumber, break down fairly thick cardboard and other various media, I'd also wager the cutting tasks I perform test the knives that I have and their locks more than cutting some packing tape here and an envelope there. While I'm absolutely sure that there are those that demand more from their knives and require/want more strength from the locks in their folding knives (some of whom which are without a doubt members on this forum), I feel comfortable given my experiences about placing my trust in liner/frame locks and perhaps more importantly I like using them (along with other types of locking mechanisms) and here's why:

Like @bhyde mentioned before when talking about ultimate strength/fixed blades, when you choose a folding knife, you're making a compromise in strength for the ability for the knife to fold (and usually the portability that comes along with that feature). Similarly, I find that when choosing a liner or frame lock knife, I'm compromising slightly on total lock strength for the simplicity inherent to the original design along with the ease in one-handed operability like Lapedog mentioned:

I agree with you and think you are getting at the root of the benefits of a liner/framelocks. The linerlock was such a great invention because it took a part of folding knives that was already part of them, the liner, and formed a lock by simply bending it over. It didn’t add any new components to the knife. (Well, detent ball and a few minor things)
The genius of the framelock was Chris Reeve decided why use a liner at all? I mean think about the components of a minimalist framelock. Two scales, one with a lock, blade, two washers, pivot, one standoff and a clip.
That is what makes these locks so appealing is they are simple in concept even if not so in execution.

While the Triad lock is beefier than a normal back lock and is designed to be stronger, in useage they function the same way. While I have some backlocks and can open and close them entirely with one hand, I find the process to do so noticeably more finicky than operating a frame/liner lock. Again, I don't need all of that extra strength. As well, while frame/liner locks were obviously designed to secure the blade of a folding knife just like say, the Triad lock, I feel like an extremely high threshold for lock failure was not the primary focus behind the design. Are there objectively better locks in terms of strength than a liner/frame lock? Very likely, but in terms of the overall package (ie. there's more to a locking mechanism for a folding knife than its strength), I think due to some of the reasons that I've already mentioned, that's why some people tend to like/prefer/gravitate towards it.

Edited for clarity.

 

[Chariotz4]

Back on the original topic; I don't own a lot of ZTs, just two in fact (until recently): a 0452CF and two 0450s; one 0450CF and a recent acquisition in a 0450FCZDP. I've been lurking in this thread on and off for a couple weeks and after stumbling onto it, I tested my two ZTs by spine wacking them firmly against a roll of packing tape and failed to experience any lock failure. Given my successful experience with those two and the fact that I'm not planning on putting the 0450FCZDP through any particularly strenuous use, I left that one alone. This isn't to take away from the several members reporting in this thread that they've experienced lock problems with their knives, and in some cases (the even worse problem in my opinion) of sending their knives back to KAI to remedy the problem, only to have their knife/knives returned to them worse off than before, but merely to say that their unfortunate circumstances don't seem to extend to me.

 

[Blacplastik]

It sucks when any knife lock fails.
But it’s even harder so swallow when it’s a knife marketed as built like a tank fails.

 

[not2sharp]

It sucks when any knife lock fails.
But it’s even harder so swallow when it’s a knife marketed as built like a tank fails.

Perhaps our problem is that we bought into the hype and hold an unreasonable expectation for our knives. The primary characteristic for any folding knife is that it folds, and hence is compact and relatively easy to carry. Ideally, it should be able to cut commensurate with its modern metallurgy and its relatively compact size. The body of the knife, including the locking mechanism, should be ergonomic, easy to use and relatively safe. But, in many ways, this is a compromised system, which has given in on all of these features for the sake of portability.

I don’t understand where we get this notion of a pocket tank. A folding knife makes for a poor sword and an even worse wood chopper. Also, it has a mechanism which has more nooks and crannies to keep clean during game or food processing. It is a less than ideal tool, that has the clear advantage of being the one tool that we are willing to carry.

I do not see a problem with the frame lock and find it safe enough for my use. But, I wouldn’t normally baton my folders, and if I ever had a need for such hard use, I would make sure to hold it so that my fingers were nowhere near the path of blade travel. For most folders the pivot pin, stop pin and frame strength are more of a concern then the lock strength. Be reasonable and be safe.

N2S

 

[JacksonKnives]

Yikes. In before the lock!

 

[Kaizen1]

Just got a 0620 in the mail. No play, no lock rock, no problems on pressure on the spine or modest spine whacks against the knee. That makes 3 of the 3 ZTs I own (0620, 0452, 804CF).

 

[bflying]

Yikes. In before the lock!

Ha ha! "In before the lock".

 

[Kaizen1]

Perhaps our problem is that we bought into the hype and hold an unreasonable expectation for our knives. The primary characteristic for any folding knife is that it folds, and hence is compact and relatively easy to carry. Ideally, it should be able to cut commensurate with its modern metallurgy and its relatively compact size. The body of the knife, including the locking mechanism, should be ergonomic, easy to use and relatively safe. But, in many ways, this is a compromised system, which has given in on all of these features for the sake of portability.

I don’t understand where we get this notion of a pocket tank. A folding knife makes for a poor sword and an even worse wood chopper. Also, it has a mechanism which has more nooks and crannies to keep clean during game or food processing. It is a less than ideal tool, that has the clear advantage of being the one tool that we are willing to carry.

I do not see a problem with the frame lock and find it safe enough for my use. But, I wouldn’t normally baton my folders, and if I ever had a need for such hard use, I would make sure to hold it so that my fingers were nowhere near the path of blade travel. For most folders the pivot pin, stop pin and frame strength are more of a concern then the lock strength. Be reasonable and be safe.

N2S

I think it's not that the knives are failing in the way they are per se, but rather that they're failing relative to other knives which aren't marketed that way and in many cases are significantly less expensive, and are capable of staying locked open under similar circumstances.

That said, I'm not experiencing these issues with my ZTs.

 

[ponykid]

Known by who exactly?

91bravo , you can't have a legitimate discussion with someone who would make such a blatantly false statement.

That's fine Craytab . Its my opinion not saying its fact . You are obviously the grand poo-bah of all wisdom and perfect in all that you say and do I always bow to your God like presence here on the forums. whats the weakest mass produced lock system in the industry right now? Lock Back?Liner lock?compression lock? axis lock?

 

[ponykid]

You might want to get your facts straight before you call someone rude. As for my quote:



There it is. So according to ponykid and you, ZT, CRK, Hinderer, and ALL framelock and liner lock manufacturers are doing it all wrong. Gotcha.

didn't say they are doing it all wrong. don't go putting words in my mouth. your but hurt over a personal critique of a lock system because youre invested in it. that's fine. Im sure these knife makers can defend themselves and will be more successful financially then I ever will.

Not making a personal attack on anyone or any business. what I said IN MY OPINION is the liner lock is not the best lock system out there and if I , ME , MYSELF was designing a knife I would never go to the liner/frame lock

all done here. cant stand the trivial arguing and the petty personal attacks from self appointed
Gurus of life

 

[91bravo]

cant stand the trivial arguing and the petty personal attacks from self appointed
Gurus of life

I know it, I can't stand it either.

 

[craytab]

That's fine Craytab . Its my opinion not saying its fact . You are obviously the grand poo-bah of all wisdom and perfect in all that you say and do I always bow to your God like presence here on the forums. whats the weakest mass produced lock system in the industry right now? Lock Back?Liner lock?compression lock? axis lock?

You did not express your statement as an opinion. You said it is "known". This implies there is a general agreement of the knife community that what you are saying is true. Do you see the difference between what you said and what an actual personal opinion is? Also, "crappiest" isn't exactly a technical term that is particularly useful in a discussion.

I'm not some knife lock obsessed nerd so I'm not going to analyze and breakdown all knife lock types. I will say one that makes me nervous enough not to use is what opinel does. Held one and felt right away it was not right. I'd rather have no lock than what I feel is a weak and unsafe lock. Also, the piston lock SOG uses on their SAT folders is not confidence inspiring.

All locks have trade offs. The only perfect lock is a fixed blade.

 

[craytab]

Not making a personal attack on anyone or any business. what I said IN MY OPINION is the liner lock is not the best lock system out there and if I , ME , MYSELF was designing a knife I would never go to the liner/frame lock

That is not at all what you said.

 

[91bravo]

You didn't not express your statement as an opinion. You said it is "known". This implies there is a general agreement of the knife community that what you are saying is true. Do you see the difference between what you said and what an actual personal opinion is? Also, "crappiest" isn't exactly a technical term that is particularly useful in a discussion.

I'm not some knife lock obsessed nerd so I'm not going to analyze and breakdown all knife lock types. I will say one that makes me nervous enough not to use is what opinel does. Held one and felt right away it was not right. I'd rather have no lock than what I feel is a weak and unsafe lock. Also, the piston lock SOG uses on their SAT folders is not confidence inspiring.

All locks have trade offs. The only perfect lock is a fixed blade.

I'm telling you Cray, I must be doing it all wrong! Not to say that it's not out there, but I've yet to see any catastrophic failure of any of my locks. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that? Like I stated before, I don't give input on knives I've never tried, but I will on knives that I have.

I speak from many years of experience of handling, using, and sharpening MANY different kinds of knives with multiple steels with multiple locks. My post history here proves it. Do you even have any knives P ponykid or just regurgitating what you see on youtube? That's a real easy thing to do. Soon, you too will be wise in the ways of the blade young grasshoppa!

 

[craytab]

I'm telling you Cray, I must be doing it all wrong! Not to say that it's not out there, but I've yet to see any catastrophic failure of any of my locks. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that? Like I stated before, I don't give input on knives I've never tried, but I will on knives that I have.

I speak from many years of experience of handling, using, and sharpening MANY different kinds of knives with multiple steels with multiple locks. My post history here proves it. Do you even have any knives P ponykid or just regurgitating what you see on youtube? That's a real easy thing to do. Soon, you too will be wise in the ways of the blade young grasshoppa!

Not only are you doing it wrong, all the major knife manufacturers are doing it wrong too since they are using the weakest crappiest lock available. It is "known".