Zero Tolerance S35VN heat treat issues

Gaston444 said:
A 1999 test in Knives Illustrated pitted CPM 3V, and another CPM steel, against 440C: 440C was miles ahead in every medium... That was a test with purpose built test mules, so I do consider it more credible.


Gaston
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Is that the mysterious article that no one, especially you, has ever been able to show proof of?
It seems you are basing your opinions on a mythical object that does not exist...

Well, the unicorn on my balcony says that modern powder metallurgy steel are superior; I dare you to refute evidence of that magnitude. :cool:
 
The details change but he is persistent. One time Gaston posted a thread asking for help tracking down the article. It hasn't been located yet. Googling then reading all the past times he has made this claim can get tiring. Note it has changed from Tactical knives to Knives Illustrated somewhere during the many retelling s. Here is an example:

"Carbon steels all have lower edge holding than good 440 in my experience (there is a lot of bad 440 around), and especially they are worse in edge holding than Aus-6 and Aus-8, which seem much more consistent in performance than most 440. Aus-6 and Aus-8 are my first choices, even over 440C: The Japanese origin seems to make all the difference in consistent performance.

In that context, the only advantage of Carbon steels have is the ease of sharpening, and that one advantage well and truly disappeared when diamond hones became more widely available, especially what I see as the more "dense" more aggressive Dia-Sharp hones by DMT...

As far as 440C taking a back seat to anything, there was a very elaborate test done during 1999 in "Tactical Knives", all with dozens of purpose-built "mules" matched to exact specs for the most consistent comparison (how many edge-holding tests have you seen that used purpose-built test mules in various steels?), and 440C crushed everything, including very early batches of INFI (ground down from early knives?), two early CPMs steels (including CPM 3V and another whose name I forget), 154 CM, ATS34, D-2 and a slew of others including several carbon steels, which were all rounding out the bottom of the barrel...

The funny thing is that on manila rope 440C was ahead in edge holding by a huge margin, only D-2 being anywhere in the ballpark...

At the time (1999) ATS34 was all the rage, pushed and hyped to an extent that today's super steels can only dream about, and ATS34 could not even reach 440C's heels in that test...: I lost all interest in newer steels after that... Probably forever...

I am still trying to locate 1999 issues of Tactical Knives, not that showing scans of this 17 year old test will change any made-up minds... In the meantime, I can only laugh at people who look down on Aus-6 or 440B, especially since most of the tests since have been done on completely dissimilar knives, and none with precisely matched test mules...

I can understand looking down on 440, as there is a lot of crap out there, but looking down on Aus-6 or Aus-8 is downright comedy material...

Gaston"
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/154-cm-and-cpm154.1423070/page-2

There are many others . Too many to list here. This isn't the most unusual one either. He once inferred that there was a conspiracy to keep the test hidden so people wouldn't know the truth of how bad these new "super steels" really are. It's good we have someone like him looking out for us easily fooled types who have been brainwashed by big steel. o_O

Joe
 
Another one:
The article in question is, again, from KI or Blade, and dates very close to the first time I ever heard of "powder" Crucible Particle Metallurgy steels, so long, long before these "powder" steels ever became widely available in knives you could easily buy...: I was surprised the testers were even able to include two "powder" steels in the test, as I only knew of one existing at the time I read the article, and that was CPM 3V...: That was a big surprise... This is the timeline for the appearance of the first CPM "powder" metallurgy steels, in reverse order of appearance, from S30V back (From Crucible's very own site):

2001 - Developed stainless tool steel CPM® S30V® for applications requiring improved corrosion and wear resistance.
2000 - Developed VIM CRU® 60* and VIM CRU® 80* for hybrid bearing applications.
2000 - Developed advanced iron based powder metallurgy calibration standards for X-ray and optical emission equipment.
1999 – Developed second stainless tool steel CPM® S90V® for improved corrosion and wear resistance.
1998 - Developed CPM® Rex® 121, a new ultra hard (HRC 70-72) and abrasion resistant high speed steel.
1997 - Developed VIM CRU® 20* for hybrid bearing applications.
1997 - Developed CPM® SS100®, a new high strength corrosion resistant steel using nitrogen as an alloying element and rapid solidification processing.
1997 - Developed CPM® 3V®, a high toughness steel with good wear resistance.

I believe the steel 440C beat the daylights out of was CPM 3V (and CPM SS100, since I remember clearly there were two CPM "powder" steels included in the test): As I said, that test included two CPM "powder" steels long before I ever heard of production or even custom knives being offered in one "powder" steel... The magazine had really pulled all the stops on that one...

Now we know the the most problable date for the article is 1997-98, and it makes sense because by 1998 I got a Spyderco Civilian (a knife without peer then or now), and I kind of lost interest in all other knives for about 15 years after that...: I certainly would not have read this article much past 1998, as by 1999 my hobby interests had completely changed, towards miniature modelling...

INFI began in 1998, so it fits within that timeframe... It was very new then too I remember...

You certainly have the wrong article if it is not from the late '90s. I do remember the "1997-98" article was very odd in that it failed to praise 440C's results, despite the data within the article being quite overwhelming... There was a sense of downright schizophrenia in the conclusions, as if the 440C results had to be downplayed... ATS34 did very, very poorly, as did INFI, CPM 3V, CPM SS100, and even D2 did not do much better (though I vaguely remember D2 might have been a bit ahead of the large pack of distant losers). In fact there was really nothing that even came close to 440C for edge-holding on soft or semi-hard materials, particularly manilla rope...

I lost all interest in "supersteels" after that... Other than 440C that is...

Surely there is someone out there with a complete 97-99 run of both KI or Blade...

Gaston
 
So, KI, TK or ?
Mules made exactly the same just for the test. Then, tested blind without the testers knowing which they were. An Infi "mule" was there. Also, a deliberate attempt to play down the fact that 440C was so good the other steels were "distant losers".

I can go on and on. What's the point though? Time to prove it or stop posting it as facts Gaston.

Joe
 
The Mastiff said:
So, KI, TK or ?
Mules made exactly the same just for the test. Then, tested blind without the testers knowing which they were. An Infi "mule" was there. Also, a deliberate attempt to play down the fact that 440C was so good the other steels were "distant losers".

I can go on and on. What's the point though? Time to prove it or stop posting it as facts Gaston.

Joe
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There is the theory of infinite dimensions...perhaps Gaston just dimensional-shifted here from a reality where that magazine actually exists, and 440C is better than all other steels.

Could be proof of dimensional travel rather than someone's lack of knife knowledge. :thumbsup:
 
Cutting though wires, I read a while back that cutting through human hair is approximately the same as cutting though copper wire of the same thickness.
 
If the old stainless steel are so superior, then why do we bother paying so much more for these new fangled CPM steels? I mean if 440C was so good, wouldn't all the best makers be using it? It's actually pretty cheap to both buy and machine compared to virtually any CPM stainless, so why do we waste so much money?
 
Simple.......just ask Gaseous!!
:p

dkb45 said:
If the old stainless steel are so superior, then why do we bother paying so much more for these new fangled CPM steels? I mean if 440C was so good, wouldn't all the best makers be using it? It's actually pretty cheap to both buy and machine compared to virtually any CPM stainless, so why do we waste so much money?
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Why do people accuse someone of trolling...then keep posting off topic in their thread keeping it alive. Which you are obviously trying to get his attention or rise out of him.....Doesn't that make you the troll....Yes it does
 
This community is an excellent source to learn & ask general & specific about knives, especially on faults/defects data/occurrences. Unfortunately noises/opinions can at time drown out actual data. Here is my guessing/opinion on ZT's early production of ZT35VN knives - there were HT issues however quickly rectified thereafter. Of course recall defective knives within serial # range would be best course of action however it would be expensive and abnormal action in a production knife company ;)

Does PM steels suck? No, with standard ht there are net-benefits from using PM tech. Personally, I prefer to use cast/ingot where carbide volume is less than 7% and carbide diameter less than 1 micron, which support more durable sub micron apex width (very keen edge).

Does 15dps sharp edge in PM steel sustainable for normal usage? Yes*. Well, at least in demonstrated context below:

Cut & Chop edge stability test of a butcher/scimeter knife.
CPM 10V, 0.072" thick, 9.3" blade, 69.25rc via HT 2.51
Sharpened: Diamond plates progression to 3K. 15 dps, ~0.015" behind edge thick.

Link jumps to chop a rib bone near the end of the video - watch 30 seconds:
youtu.be/OwJvCP9YJZs?t=12m15s
 
extrastout said:
Why do people accuse someone of trolling...then keep posting off topic in their thread keeping it alive. Which you are obviously trying to get his attention or rise out of him.....Doesn't that make you the troll....Yes it does
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It is not his thread. He posts the same untruths in any thread relating to cpm steels, throwing them off topic and into absurdity. Mods have asked to not feed him (that means he is a troll). I agree that not feeding him is good but the community shouldn't have to put up with him spreading missinformation either. Have some taken it too far? That is for the mods to determine, not you or anyone else. You are posting just as off topic as those who you are chastising. Best to report the posts you don't think are on topic and let the mods take care of it than to be hypocritical.

Gaston has never owned or used zt s35vn. Him posting in this thread at all is just his usual misinformed tirade. At the end of the day It is important for this community to dispel myths propagated by those who only come here with an agenda.
 
bluntcut said:
This community is an excellent source to learn & ask general & specific about knives, especially on faults/defects data/occurrences. Unfortunately noises/opinions can at time drown out actual data. Here is my guessing/opinion on ZT's early production of ZT35VN knives - there were HT issues however quickly rectified thereafter. Of course recall defective knives within serial # range would be best course of action however it would be expensive and abnormal action in a production knife company ;)

Does PM steels suck? No, with standard ht there are net-benefits from using PM tech. Personally, I prefer to use cast/ingot where carbide volume is less than 7% and carbide diameter less than 1 micron, which support more durable sub micron apex width (very keen edge).

Does 15dps sharp edge in PM steel sustainable for normal usage? Yes*. Well, at least in demonstrated context below:

Cut & Chop edge stability test of a butcher/scimeter knife.
CPM 10V, 0.072" thick, 9.3" blade, 69.25rc via HT 2.51
Sharpened: Diamond plates progression to 3K. 15 dps, ~0.015" behind edge thick.

Link jumps to chop a rib bone near the end of the video - watch 30 seconds:
youtu.be/OwJvCP9YJZs?t=12m15s
Click to expand...
I've had no problems with any zt s35vn, early or late production.
 
hexenjager said:
As far as ZT's s35, my main work folder is a ZT 0909 in s35 and it performs admirably in my opinion. That's why it's currently my main folder. No formal testing on my part (either real or imaginary o_O), just day to day ranch use.
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I have the same knife, love it enough that I bought another one since they are discontinued. I use mine in my daily construction duties for things like cutting heavy fiberglass strapping, thin wiring, triple thick cardboard boxes that hold equipment shipped to site, trimming moldings (PVC and wood) and on a on.

Works great for me, better than some of the other "super" steeled knives I have. (No name... don't wan't to fire up a fan base...)

I set my edges and respective bevels based on the style and size of the knife and what it will be used for in its duties. If I find that the bevel I set isn't right for the knife, I rebevel until I find the sweet spot for me.

I am so, so thankful I don't have to worry about 1/2 of a degree of sharpening angle, maintaining an exactly perfect angle, mirror finishing and edge to perfect reflectivity, etc. I touch up all my knives with a 1200 gr diamond rod as needed. No knife I have ever owned will keep a perfect edge after a hard day on the site working as a tool, all the way up to my Kershaw Shallot in S110V. I can get all the better steels returned to shaving sharp with a few swipes after a hard day of work and that is what they get. ZT's S35 responds to that treatment very well. Usually, it only gets a touch up once a week whether it needs it or not.

A good, clean edge that will shave arm hair, slice paper cleanly and last in practical use is all I need.

Robert
 
craytab said:
It is not his thread. He posts the same untruths in any thread relating to cpm steels, throwing them off topic and into absurdity. Mods have asked to not feed him (that means he is a troll). I agree that not feeding him is good but the community shouldn't have to put up with him spreading missinformation either. Have some taken it too far? That is for the mods to determine, not you or anyone else. You are posting just as off topic as those who you are chastising. Best to report the posts you don't think are on topic and let the mods take care of it than to be hypocritical.

Gaston has never owned or used zt s35vn. Him posting in this thread at all is just his usual misinformed tirade. At the end of the day It is important for this community to dispel myths propagated by those who only come here with an agenda.
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when I keep getting alerts from this post everytime I hop on the forum, and its just the same people trying to stir up/troll the mod it became my business and im allowed my opinion. Yes some took it to far, Im allowed to determine that and now these posters are using sarcasm on me, trying to get me going (Jimi Hendrix, and the Dog). There would be no trolls if people stop feeding them/trolling them

How about them Patriots!!
 
extrastout said:
when I keep getting alerts from this post everytime I hop on the forum, and its just the same people trying to stir up/troll the mod it became my business and im allowed my opinion. Yes some took it to far, Im allowed to determine that and now these posters are using sarcasm on me, trying to get me going (Jimi Hendrix, and the Dog). There would be no trolls if people stop feeding them/trolling them

How about them Patriots!!
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You must see the irony in this. You are feeding those you have deemed trolls and going off topic just the same. You can turn off alerts to specific threads.
 
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