Zero Tolerance S35VN heat treat issues

Ok, so i finished my zt 0450 cut test with 3/8 inch sisal rope jntil it would no longer reliably cut printer paper. i free-handed the edge on dmt red 600 grit diamond whetstone; refined it on on sharpmaker 20 degrees setting on brown corners, then white corners, then 6 total passes on home made strop loaded with porter cable brand green compound. Total cuts: 438 until it would not reliably cut the printer paper. i recorded on video and am working on getting it posted to youtube
 
Gaston444 said:
15 degrees per side should be the bare bones minimum sharpness for a folder...

I use 12-14 per side on large choppers, but most steels, with the energy a big knife can deliver, do require a -tiny- 20 per side micro-bevel to hold up their apex straight. D-2 is an exception in that it does not micro-fold, even without micro-bevel(!), but it will, very occasionally, do a small chip: The 20 degree micro-bevel for D-2 will not prevent folding, but chipping. I still like D-2, as its chipping is rare and small.

Still, the forces to the edge a folder can deliver are far less. The edge holding extrastout described for his S35VN ZT 0450cf is about what I would expect from all the CPMs steels I have tried so far; S30V, CPM 3V, CPM 154: About like a swiss army knife, same hardness in use but harder to sharpen. A Chinese steel low-end Kershaw I used was similar in behaviour to a Gerber in S30V: Micro-folding on cardboard, while a 70 year old "unknown stainless" Sabatier Jeune "Boy Scout" knife of the 1940s (a sort of K-Bar looking 7" fighter), with an extremely thin 0.010" edge base at 10 degrees per side, held up beautifully in the cardboard, and even did fair when -lightly- chopping Maple (but it is fairly hard to sharpen).

In general there is no miracle: Hard to sharpen will hold an edge, but stainless CPMs manage to sharpen hard, and micro-fold their edge fast, even at 20 per side for the whole edge, not just the micro-bevel.

Gaston
Click to expand...
Do you really believe the s**t you post? Just wondering.
 
Gaston444 said:
15 degrees per side should be the bare bones minimum sharpness for a folder...

I use 12-14 per side on large choppers, but most steels, with the energy a big knife can deliver, do require a -tiny- 20 per side micro-bevel to hold up their apex straight. D-2 is an exception in that it does not micro-fold, even without micro-bevel(!), but it will, very occasionally, do a small chip: The 20 degree micro-bevel for D-2 will not prevent folding, but chipping. I still like D-2, as its chipping is rare and small.

Still, the forces to the edge a folder can deliver are far less. The edge holding extrastout described for his S35VN ZT 0450cf is about what I would expect from all the CPMs steels I have tried so far; S30V, CPM 3V, CPM 154: About like a swiss army knife, same hardness in use but harder to sharpen. A Chinese steel low-end Kershaw I used was similar in behaviour to a Gerber in S30V: Micro-folding on cardboard, while a 70 year old "unknown stainless" Sabatier Jeune "Boy Scout" knife of the 1940s (a sort of K-Bar looking 7" fighter), with an extremely thin 0.010" edge base at 10 degrees per side, held up beautifully in the cardboard, and even did fair when -lightly- chopping Maple (but it is fairly hard to sharpen).

In general there is no miracle: Hard to sharpen will hold an edge, but stainless CPMs manage to sharpen hard, and micro-fold their edge fast, even at 20 per side for the whole edge, not just the micro-bevel.

Gaston
Click to expand...

Public Service Announcement: The above quoted statements and all other things said by this poster are complete and total B.S. Don't let them trouble you. They aren't real.
 
Gaston stated: "15 degrees per side should be the bare bones minimum sharpness for a folder...

I use 12-14 per side on large choppers, but most steels, with the energy a big knife can deliver, do require a -tiny- 20 per side micro-bevel to hold up their apex straight. D-2 is an exception in that it does not micro-fold, even without micro-bevel(!), but it will, very occasionally, do a small chip: The 20 degree micro-bevel for D-2 will not prevent folding, but chipping. I still like D-2, as its chipping is rare and small.

Still, the forces to the edge a folder can deliver are far less. The edge holding extrastout described for his S35VN ZT 0450cf is about what I would expect from all the CPMs steels I have tried so far; S30V, CPM 3V, CPM 154: About like a swiss army knife, same hardness in use but harder to sharpen. A Chinese steel low-end Kershaw I used was similar in behaviour to a Gerber in S30V: Micro-folding on cardboard, while a 70 year old "unknown stainless" Sabatier Jeune "Boy Scout" knife of the 1940s (a sort of K-Bar looking 7" fighter), with an extremely thin 0.010" edge base at 10 degrees per side, held up beautifully in the cardboard, and even did fair when -lightly- chopping Maple (but it is fairly hard to sharpen).

In general there is no miracle: Hard to sharpen will hold an edge, but stainless CPMs manage to sharpen hard, and micro-fold their edge fast, even at 20 per side for the whole edge, not just the micro-bevel."

If you are having good luck with chopping hard woods at 30 degrees inclusive then you are showing modern knife making and metallurgy is doing it right. You should be running 40 degrees inclusive, maybe more and not 30. Certainly not for the large choppers you like. If you are really chopping wood with a stainless knife at 30 degrees and not getting damage then you must be doing it in your sleep and not real life.

As far as your experience with powder steels it tells me you have an edge problem from sharpening. I'd guess burring. These powder steels are VERY tenacious about not giving up their burrs and have you fooled into thinking you couldn't possibly have one, right? You do though. If you have steels like Aus 6 , 8 and 440C and now D2 outperforming these new powder steels consistently then I'd bet money you are doing something....consistently... to bring about these results. When you go into a problem looking to confirm the results you already know to be true you will see exactly what you want to see. Unfortunately you see every bit of advice given to you as an attack of some sort and you have no desire ever to admit you could be missing something.

* Not meant for Gaston* All I can say is if you are new-ish and still building your knowledge base always keep your mind open. I learn something here on this forum every day and even learn things from people younger and at times less experienced. If good I keep it, if not I remember it anyways. :) If one can't keep an open mind they only harm themselves. It's easy to see.

Joe L.
 
I for one, find 15 degrees to be to shallow of an edge for most knives including the zt 0450 in s35vn steel. I do not abuse my knives, nor do i baby them. As i have said before, i have suffered edge rolls on vg10, and s35vn with 15 degree angles. I just did that cut test with the zt at approximately 20 degrees and no rolling or micro rolling. I find 438 cuts to be quite satisfactory. I am not discounting anyone else's tests or experience, but for mine, it held up admirably. so for me, the idea of soft heat treat on ZT has been put to rest. I am uploading the video of my cut test to youtube now. So if the uploading works i should have the video posted within the hour for anyone who would like to see the zt 0450 in action. youtube upload page says this will be the link:
 
I agree with The Mastiff, these powder steels really can hold a burr very easily. Even very small hardly noticeable burrs. Very small burrs can be revealed by shining a bright light on the edge. In my experience the finishing touches of sharpening a powder steel must be done with a very light touch.
 
Factory produced knives sharpened en masse belt always run the risk of the edge being slightly burnt. If you are getting poor edge retention on the factory edge and haven't done a full regrind of the edge, you may just be slowly working off that thin layer of burnt steel, and getting a little more aggressive when sharpening could bring up good steel underneath. I have had a few knives with burnt edges, namely tips, it just sometimes happens and is why a good full grit assortment sharpening system is a wise investment (well one reason)
extrastout said:
its the original factory edge profile, I just touch it up, about 5 light strokes on a water stone each side, which brings back the razor edge. The blade works fine "glides through" on the first package of stock but not on the third or fourth. This is how it was from factory, and proceeded to perform this way after touchups....then its just a rough cutting working edge that nothing to write home about
Click to expand...
 
The Mastiff said:
Gaston stated: "15 degrees per side should be the bare bones minimum sharpness for a folder...

I use 12-14 per side on large choppers, but most steels, with the energy a big knife can deliver, do require a -tiny- 20 per side micro-bevel to hold up their apex straight. D-2 is an exception in that it does not micro-fold, even without micro-bevel(!), but it will, very occasionally, do a small chip: The 20 degree micro-bevel for D-2 will not prevent folding, but chipping. I still like D-2, as its chipping is rare and small.

Still, the forces to the edge a folder can deliver are far less. The edge holding extrastout described for his S35VN ZT 0450cf is about what I would expect from all the CPMs steels I have tried so far; S30V, CPM 3V, CPM 154: About like a swiss army knife, same hardness in use but harder to sharpen. A Chinese steel low-end Kershaw I used was similar in behaviour to a Gerber in S30V: Micro-folding on cardboard, while a 70 year old "unknown stainless" Sabatier Jeune "Boy Scout" knife of the 1940s (a sort of K-Bar looking 7" fighter), with an extremely thin 0.010" edge base at 10 degrees per side, held up beautifully in the cardboard, and even did fair when -lightly- chopping Maple (but it is fairly hard to sharpen).

In general there is no miracle: Hard to sharpen will hold an edge, but stainless CPMs manage to sharpen hard, and micro-fold their edge fast, even at 20 per side for the whole edge, not just the micro-bevel."

If you are having good luck with chopping hard woods at 30 degrees inclusive then you are showing modern knife making and metallurgy is doing it right. You should be running 40 degrees inclusive, maybe more and not 30. Certainly not for the large choppers you like. If you are really chopping wood with a stainless knife at 30 degrees and not getting damage then you must be doing it in your sleep and not real life.

As far as your experience with powder steels it tells me you have an edge problem from sharpening. I'd guess burring. These powder steels are VERY tenacious about not giving up their burrs and have you fooled into thinking you couldn't possibly have one, right? You do though. If you have steels like Aus 6 , 8 and 440C and now D2 outperforming these new powder steels consistently then I'd bet money you are doing something....consistently... to bring about these results. When you go into a problem looking to confirm the results you already know to be true you will see exactly what you want to see. Unfortunately you see every bit of advice given to you as an attack of some sort and you have no desire ever to admit you could be missing something.

* Not meant for Gaston* All I can say is if you are new-ish and still building your knowledge base always keep your mind open. I learn something here on this forum every day and even learn things from people younger and at times less experienced. If good I keep it, if not I remember it anyways. :) If one can't keep an open mind they only harm themselves. It's easy to see.

Joe L.
Click to expand...

Very well said. I definitely agree with the last paragraph . I m continually learning things on this forum from our great members, new and old. When I quit learning here, I ll get bored and leave.
 
The Mastiff said:

If you are having good luck with chopping hard woods at 30 degrees inclusive then you are showing modern knife making and metallurgy is doing it right.
Click to expand...

If "modern" includes mostly 30 year old knives, or newer Randalls, then definitely.

Maybe the metallurgy is right while the CPM steels are wrong...

A 1999 test in Knives Illustrated pitted CPM 3V, and another CPM steel, against 440C: 440C was miles ahead in every medium... That was a test with purpose built test mules, so I do consider it more credible.

All the knives that did well -for me- were 1980s vintage blades in Aus-6, D-2, 440B, 440C, and the 1940s unknown French stainless. All of these ranged from 30 to nearly 80 years old... Only the Randall Model 12 in 440B was of recent vintage and performed very well.

One huge recently made Voorhis bowie in 5160, at 12 degree per side on a 0.020" edge, damaged easily while chopping, until I opened the micro-bevel to around 22 dps: It is passable now, still with a less than 15 dps/0.020" REK main edge bevel on an 11" blade. I don't expect as much from Carbon steel, given the extreme ease of sharpening, so the quite open micro bevel and relatively fast dulling are acceptable to me: The ratio between edge-holding and ease of sharpening I consider passable.

The near 80 year old French knife had very mild, barely visible, edge warpage in two places after chopping Maple, but then it was only 0.010" and 10 dps (REK regrind), so obviously way too thin: I just wanted to see how good this nearly 80 year old stainless steel was... It made fun of all the CPM I've had the misfortune to buy. If "modern metallurgy" includes this 80 year old knife, then yes, they did know what they were doing.

The Mastiff said:
You should be running 40 degrees inclusive, maybe more and not 30. Certainly not for the large choppers you like. If you are really chopping wood with a stainless knife at 30 degrees and not getting damage then you must be doing it in your sleep and not real life.
Click to expand...

I don't know: 30 degrees does not look that impressive to me, but I did note that when you baton, then yes 30 degrees is a big problem, with deep micro-folds all over the edge in 5 baton hits to split a 2" stick, while 1000 chops did nothing similar...

angle_030_32508_md.gif


The implication of your wording is.... Stainless does worse than Carbon in resisting damage, while chopping at thin 30 inclusive angles. That would presumably be less dream like... Did I actually read this?

No, my eyes must be playing tricks on me...

Annnd... My Randall Model 12 (440B), my Lile "Mission" (D-2), My Al Mar "Special Warfare" (Aus-6), never existed throughout their hundreds of chops over two years, all documented with photos when Photobucket was around: Got it.


The Mastiff said:
As far as your experience with powder steels it tells me you have an edge problem from sharpening. I'd guess burring. These powder steels are VERY tenacious about not giving up their burrs and have you fooled into thinking you couldn't possibly have one, right?
Click to expand...


Well at least one of those was a Survive! GSO-10 with a bone-stock factory edge, but then these are known for their sloppy edges, right?...

I did take several picks of my nail material hanging from its edge after less than ten chops: Left side on the forward part of the blade, right side on the rear when I hit with the rear...

Did you actually read my posts? You know... The thing about constantly rubbing the nail to detect invisible micro-folds, which I seem to be the only one doing with my nails, and then taking pictures of the scrapped-off material, always hanging to one side and not the other?... Not to mention talking about it around fifty times per post?

Which nail rubbing nobody here ever talks about, preferring instead to talk of how the edge slices paper...

Yes, slicing paper: Or better yet: Shaving arm hair! That, I have to say, is my favourite, although hair-whittling is not bad either...

Gaston
 
Gaston444 said:
If "modern" includes mostly 30 year old knives, or newer Randalls, then definitely.

Maybe the metallurgy is right while the CPM steels are wrong...

A 1999 test in Knives Illustrated pitted CPM 3V, and another CPM steel, against 440C: 440C was miles ahead in every medium... That was a test with purpose built test mules, so I do consider it more credible.

All the knives that did well -for me- were 1980s vintage blades in Aus-6, D-2, 440B, 440C, and the 1940s unknown French stainless. All of these ranged from 30 to nearly 80 years old... Only the Randall Model 12 in 440B was of recent vintage and performed very well.

One huge recently made Voorhis bowie in 5160, at 12 degree per side on a 0.020" edge, damaged easily while chopping, until I opened the micro-bevel to around 22 dps: It is passable now, still with a less than 15 dps/0.020" REK main edge bevel on an 11" blade. I don't expect as much from Carbon steel, given the extreme ease of sharpening, so the quite open micro bevel and relatively fast dulling are acceptable to me: The ratio between edge-holding and ease of sharpening I consider passable.

The near 80 year old French knife had very mild, barely visible, edge warpage in two places after chopping Maple, but then it was only 0.010" and 10 dps (REK regrind), so obviously way too thin: I just wanted to see how good this nearly 80 year old stainless steel was... It made fun of all the CPM I've had the misfortune to buy. If "modern metallurgy" includes this 80 year old knife, then yes, they did know what they were doing.



I don't know: 30 degrees does not look that impressive to me, but I did note that when you baton, then yes 30 degrees is a big problem, with deep micro-folds all over the edge in 5 baton hits to split a 2" stick, while 1000 chops did nothing similar...

angle_030_32508_md.gif


The implication of your wording is.... Stainless does worse than Carbon in resisting damage, while chopping at thin 30 inclusive angles. That would presumably be less dream like... Did I actually read this?

No, my eyes must be playing tricks on me...

Annnd... My Randall Model 12 (440B), my Lile "Mission" (D-2), My Al Mar "Special Warfare" (Aus-6), never existed throughout their hundreds of chops over two years, all documented with photos when Photobucket was around: Got it.





Well at least one of those was a Survive! GSO-10 with a bone-stock factory edge, but then these are known for their sloppy edges, right?...

I did take several picks of my nail material hanging from its edge after less than ten chops: Left side on the forward part of the blade, right side on the rear when I hit with the rear...

Did you actually read my posts? You know... The thing about constantly rubbing the nail to detect invisible micro-folds, which I seem to be the only one doing with my nails, and then taking pictures of the scrapped-off material, always hanging to one side and not the other?... Not to mention talking about it around fifty times per post?

Which nail rubbing nobody here ever talks about, preferring instead to talk of how the edge slices paper...

Yes, slicing paper: Or better yet: Shaving arm hair! That, I have to say, is my favourite, although hair-whittling is not bad either...

Gaston
Click to expand...
And once again new folks, Don't listen to word of this.
 
I find it very difficult to believe that a stainless from 80 years ago which at the time would have been brand new tech, much like cpm is to us now, that it can even approach the cutting ability of even a new swiss army knife. i have tried old stainless in form of kitchen knife from grandfather and it performed like a 420j2, which is about as low performance as it gets. I believe the main stainless used back in the 20s and 30s was 416 stainless which is .15 carbon, so about like 420j2. But sometimes people like to admire the good ole days and thats ok. Thats what knife collecting is all about, enjoying yourself.
 
Gaston stated:
"A 1999 test in Knives Illustrated pitted CPM 3V, and another CPM steel, against 440C: 440C was miles ahead in every medium... That was a test with purpose built test mules, so I do consider it more credible."

Were you ever able to find the article you have talked about these last 3 or so years? I read in another thread you had even bought old back issues I assume to look for the article. A bunch of them. I'd think if you finally found your evidence you would share it with us. Recall I gave evidence of a test involving mules that went on about not 440C or B but powder steel 440V/S60V which Spyderco had brought to market . That was replaced ( By Spyderco andKershaw and eventually dropped from production) because it chipped badly and had to be run at rc 56-57 to hold together. S30V and S90V were then available and had better performance at the edge, though admittedly while S30V didn't have quite as much abrasive wear resistance it did better overall than 440Z/S60V.

So once again I ask you to prove what you claim about the article. You have had a few years to find it. If what you claim is true I'd think you wouldn't be the only one in the world who knew about it.

Joe
 
Last edited:
The Mastiff said:
If what you claim is true I'd think you wouldn't be the only one in the world who knew about it.
Click to expand...

Quoted for truth. In fact, this can be applied to nearly every one of G Gaston444 's posts that I've personally ever read.

As far as ZT's s35, my main work folder is a ZT 0909 in s35 and it performs admirably in my opinion. That's why it's currently my main folder. No formal testing on my part (either real or imaginary o_O), just day to day ranch use.
 
Last edited:
The Mastiff said:
So once again I ask you to prove what you claim about the article. You have had a few years to find it. If what you claim is true I'd think you wouldn't be the only one in the world who knew about it.
Click to expand...
He won't and can't. It is also almost a 20 year old article. Not exactly cutting edge information.

hexenjager said:
Quoted for truth. This can be applied to nearly every one of G Gaston444 's posts that I've personally ever read.
Click to expand...
Yes it certainly can.

It is pointless to argue with G Gaston444 because he is just trolling at this point. The best option is to warn the new folks who don't know his game yet to not pay any attention to him.
 
Might not be ranch tested, but the s35vn ZTs I use at work, HVAC, hold up just fine.
Haven't had any issues at all.

Oh yeah, one more thing, if I may......what language is our friend Gaseous posting in?? Google translate is overheating trying to translate to English.


hexenjager said:
Quoted for truth. In fact, this can be applied to nearly every one of G Gaston444 's posts that I've personally ever read.

As far as ZT's s35, my main work folder is a ZT 0909 in s35 and it performs admirably in my opinion. That's why it's currently my main folder. No formal testing on my part (either real or imaginary o_O), just day to day ranch use.
Click to expand...
 
craytab said:
It is pointless to argue with G Gaston444 because he is just trolling at this point. The best option is to warn the new folks who don't know his game yet to not pay any attention to him.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, and that is a most worthy endeavor as far as I'm concerned. I was once searching for information when looking to start expanding my blade steel horizons and did not yet know that most of his "conclusions" closely resemble what splatters on the ground at the south end of a north bound male bovine.
 
palonej said:
Might not be ranch tested, but the s35vn ZTs I use at work, HVAC, hold up just fine.
Haven't had any issues at all.

Oh yeah, one more thing, if I may......what language is our friend Gaseous posting in?? Google translate is overheating trying to translate to English.
Click to expand...

A buddy of mine does some HVAC and I've helped him out on occasion. That's not a bad way to test a knife either. Possibly tougher than ranch work in a lot of ways.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top