Zero Tolerance S35VN heat treat issues

[dkb45]

I went ahead and did some really unscientific testing and cut up a nice little pile of cardboard, using my ZT 0450CF, 0630, and Kizer Ki405 just to see how the S35VN holds up. They all performed about the same, despite the radically different profiles and geometries. They lost the razor edge pretty fast, but the working edge seemed unfazed by a fair bit of cutting. The DLC on my 450CF actually increased drag on cutting cardboard versus the satin. That was not expected.

I don't much care for the performance of S35VN, I was hoping I would be a lot different from S30V, but it the different knives performed acceptably. Elmax definitely worked better than S35VN in my experience for my wants.

 

[xyrium]

I usually choose a knife because of its design, how it feels in my hand, then steel is the next arbiter. Even if ZT HT'd their S35VN soft, I'd be ok with that, because when they do cut, they cut wonderfully, and their pivots can take a lot of abuse. If it's soft, that makes it easy for me to sharpen in the field, like VG10, which I also like a lot but doesn't seem to get a lot of love here. It's all about the intended purpose of the knife.

If people want something to cut boxes up all day, I would choose one of these instead:
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/compare-products?skus=48-22-1903&skus=48-22-1906&skus=48-22-1901

I also agree with another poster, titles such as this should be edited by the mods, because it is misleading.

 

[Gaston444]

Yep, but the real sad part is his disservice to the knife community is still being felt today.

Rubbish. He did his best testing steels on rope, and then failed to meet the workload as a knifemaker (and kept the money from unfulfilled orders), two completely separate issues. Sending money to a maker with no demonstrated output is inherently risky... I wonder if he even had one knife made when orders started to pour in...

Try to look at this rationally: At the time he did the tests he was gaining nothing but sharing his interest. People don't like the on-camera results of his tests, so instead of going through the trouble of doing countering videos, they do the less work-intensive thing and complain about his character...

G.

 

[Gaston444]

I have had bad experience with the S35VN on my 0630, but it was still using the factory edge. Only a few cuts into carboard and it lost all discernable bite in the edge.

I've tried S30V on two knives, one an RJ Martin, CPM 154, and now CPM 3V from Survive! (factory edge): All of these instantly micro-fold (invisible without rubbing the nail) their apex when hitting dried Maple, no matter how thick the edge angle... Sure most steels fold the apex a very small amount, over short stretches, after fifty strikes, but not long stretches after ONE... It says a lot when this happens instantly over long lengths... One S30V knife micro-folded its apex in a few strokes, push cutting 1/8" cardboard...

You need to do the rub the nail test to see that none of these CPM steels have any final apex stability... You are always cutting with a bent apex: It can last a while, but why not use a steel that doesn't?

Gaston

 

[Danke42]

Rubbish. He did his best testing steels on rope, and then failed to meet the workload as a knifemaker (and kept the money from unfulfilled orders), two completely separate issues. Sending money to a maker with no demonstrated output is inherently risky... I wonder if he even had one knife made when orders started to pour in...

Try to look at this rationally: At the time he did the tests he was gaining nothing but sharing his interest. People don't like the on-camera results of his tests, so instead of going through the trouble of doing countering videos, they do the less work-intensive thing and complain about his character...

G.

Leopards don't change their spots. His past non-scientific opinion of materials is diminished by his other dishonesty.

He can fool some of the people some of the time but he can't fool all of the people all the time.

 

[palonej]

Ever hear of click bait genius??
The knives he claims to have had trouble with were never sent back to the companies that made them.
Why wouldn't he want to get to the bottom of the issue??

 

[Sour27]

I usually choose a knife because of its design, how it feels in my hand, then steel is the next arbiter. Even if ZT HT'd their S35VN soft, I'd be ok with that, because when they do cut, they cut wonderfully, and their pivots can take a lot of abuse. If it's soft, that makes it easy for me to sharpen in the field, like VG10, which I also like a lot but doesn't seem to get a lot of love here. It's all about the intended purpose of the knife.

If people want something to cut boxes up all day, I would choose one of these instead:
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/compare-products?skus=48-22-1903&skus=48-22-1906&skus=48-22-1901

I also agree with another poster, titles such as this should be edited by the mods, because it is misleading.

Not trying to be a dick but I don't think anything u said was true.

If they burt the steel it going to hold an edge worse then vg10 but have the same grind ability/ be just as hard to sharpen as s35vn. So that's a loose loose.

Also pivot strength isn't real. You can take the worlds smalles pivit and compare it to the biggest. There my be a 5% increase in strength for having a 5 times bigger pivot. Zt on bearings are actually inherently week cause of the balls in the pivot. But what u get with a 5% increase in strength you loose in the amount of extra friction is produced from having a 5x bigger pivot.

And yes vg10 is a good steel

 

[craytab]

Not trying to be a dick but I don't think anything u said was true.

If they burt the steel it going to hold an edge worse then vg10 but have the same grind ability/ be just as hard to sharpen as s35vn. So that's a loose loose.

Also pivot strength isn't real. You can take the worlds smalles pivit and compare it to the biggest. There my be a 5% increase in strength for having a 5 times bigger pivot. Zt on bearings are actually inherently week cause of the balls in the pivot. But what u get with a 5% increase in strength you loose in the amount of extra friction is produced from having a 5x bigger pivot.

And yes vg10 is a good steel

Got any information to prove the numbers you just said? Care to respond to my previous question?

 

[craytab]

Rubbish. He did his best testing steels on rope, and then failed to meet the workload as a knifemaker (and kept the money from unfulfilled orders), two completely separate issues. Sending money to a maker with no demonstrated output is inherently risky... I wonder if he even had one knife made when orders started to pour in...

Try to look at this rationally: At the time he did the tests he was gaining nothing but sharing his interest. People don't like the on-camera results of his tests, so instead of going through the trouble of doing countering videos, they do the less work-intensive thing and complain about his character...

G.

I've tried S30V on two knives, one an RJ Martin, CPM 154, and now CPM 3V from Survive! (factory edge): All of these instantly micro-fold (invisible without rubbing the nail) their apex when hitting dried Maple, no matter how thick the edge angle... Sure most steels fold the apex a very small amount, over short stretches, after fifty strikes, but not long stretches after ONE... It says a lot when this happens instantly over long lengths... One S30V knife micro-folded its apex in a few strokes, push cutting 1/8" cardboard...

You need to do the rub the nail test to see that none of these CPM steels have any final apex stability... You are always cutting with a bent apex: It can last a while, but why not use a steel that doesn't?

Gaston

This is rubbish. I caution new people to listen to any advice from this poster.

 

[jbmonkey]

This is rubbish. I caution new people to listen to any advice from this poster.

ahh but without his participation.......it would be so boring on the boards just reading actual facts and real science from actual makers and folks with many decades of real experience. wheres the fun in that?

 

[dkb45]

I've tried S30V on two knives, one an RJ Martin, CPM 154, and now CPM 3V from Survive! (factory edge): All of these instantly micro-fold (invisible without rubbing the nail) their apex when hitting dried Maple, no matter how thick the edge angle... Sure most steels fold the apex a very small amount, over short stretches, after fifty strikes, but not long stretches after ONE... It says a lot when this happens instantly over long lengths... One S30V knife micro-folded its apex in a few strokes, push cutting 1/8" cardboard...

You need to do the rub the nail test to see that none of these CPM steels have any final apex stability... You are always cutting with a bent apex: It can last a while, but why not use a steel that doesn't?

Gaston

I don't doubt that could be the issue with S30V, I just plainly dislike the steel. Holds a working edge but sneeze and you lose the razor edge. I know for fact that 3V and CPM154 are totally different though. CPM154 is arguably my favorite steel, and 3V is tough as nails. The fact that you got the exact same performance and edge stability issues from all 3 seems suspect at best when the steels are so radically different.

 

[PatrickKnight]

I have had no issues with my 550 in S35. Not a fan of the fact it weighs 5 metric tons but the heat treat and performance of the steel is solid. Bottom line I would recommend a ZT in S35 to a friend.

 

[Sour27]

Not trying to be a dick but I don't think anything u said was true.

If they burt the steel it going to hold an edge worse then vg10 but have the same grind ability/ be just as hard to sharpen as s35vn. So that's a loose loose.

Also pivot strength isn't real. You can take the worlds smalles pivit and compare it to the biggest. There my be a 5% increase in strength for having a 5 times bigger pivot. Zt on bearings are actually inherently week cause of the balls in the pivot. But what u get with a 5% increase in strength you loose in the amount of extra friction is produced from having a 5x bigger pivot.

And yes vg10 is a good steel

I can recall exact numbers but it's a fact that any larger surface area = more friction.

Also if you take a pair of calipers to the smallest pivot you have. I'm talking about the actual wall thickness of the pivit. You see that a pivit that's 3x the diameter of your smallest will have about the same size wall thickness as the smallest one. It's the of the wall

 

[extrastout]

My ZT 0450cf that I bought a year ago seems to be soft (but could be tough as hell, haven't pushed it enough to find out yet)....I am a machinist, for each job I get, our steel/stock comes pre-cut and delivered in cardboard boxes which has non heavy duty plastic straps on the outside to hold the box together. The steel pieces inside are tightly wrapped in a thick layer of cling wrap plastic to keep the pieces of stock together and prevent scratching. The 0450cf steel seems as good as a swiss army knife and loses its edge after cutting open a few boxes (including the plastic straps and cling wrap plastic around the stock). I cut through the cling wrap plastic by resting the spine on the steel and pushing the blade forward through the cling wrap. After a few jobs/packaged stock, the blade will no longer slice through the plastic and I have to hack through it because it gets hung up (gets a little sketchy). I like the knife and am impressed by how easily it is to get a razor edge back (just like my swiss army knife), but not how long the edge lasts. Like I said, my vic pioneer's no name surgical steel blade seems to perform the same on this type of task. This is the only knife and experience I have had with s35vn, so I have nothing to compare to or for reference. I just felt it would outperform a vic edge retention wise....but it really doesn't

 

[dkb45]

My ZT 0450cf that I bought a year ago seems to be soft (but could be tough as hell, haven't pushed it enough to find out yet)....I am a machinist, for each job I get, our steel/stock comes pre-cut and delivered in cardboard boxes which has non heavy duty plastic straps on the outside to hold the box together. The steel pieces inside are tightly wrapped in a thick layer of cling wrap plastic to keep the pieces of stock together and prevent scratching. The 0450cf steel seems as good as a swiss army knife and loses its edge after cutting open a few boxes (including the plastic straps and cling wrap plastic around the stock). I cut through the cling wrap plastic by resting the spine on the steel and pushing the blade forward through the cling wrap. After a few jobs/packaged stock, the blade will no longer slice through the plastic and I have to hack through it because it gets hung up (gets a little sketchy). I like the knife and am impressed by how easily it is to get a razor edge back (just like my swiss army knife), but not how long the edge lasts. Like I said, my vic pioneer's no name surgical steel blade seems to perform the same on this type of task. This is the only knife and experience I have had with s35vn, so I have nothing to compare to or for reference. I just felt it would outperform a vic edge retention wise....but it really doesn't

That's definitely not the norm for S35VN or S30V. It should glide through the first few cuts like butter, but the edge will lose that crisp razor apex quickly, and develop a toothy working edge that takes a little more force but still annihilates cardboard, and should hold that for a bloody long time.

Honestly I would recommend sending the knife back to ZT for a check on the blade. It's possible it's the geometry you put on the edge, but it is also possible that you simply got a lemon. I have had lemons in the past, it's just something that occasionally happens with manufactured products.

 

[microtech85]

I am going to go down to the hardware store and pick up some of that "sisal" rope and try and emulate the cut test from cedric and ava youtube channel to see how my 0450 does. I will record it but i do not have a youtube account; so i will debate whether or not i will create one to post video. however, from my experience, i can say that the zt0450 does not do well with a low angle edge such as 15 degrees per side. when i habe had mine at 15 degress it rolled. so from my experience i would recommend something closer to 20 degrees per side

 

[Gaston444]

15 degrees per side should be the bare bones minimum sharpness for a folder...

I use 12-14 per side on large choppers, but most steels, with the energy a big knife can deliver, do require a -tiny- 20 per side micro-bevel to hold up their apex straight. D-2 is an exception in that it does not micro-fold, even without micro-bevel(!), but it will, very occasionally, do a small chip: The 20 degree micro-bevel for D-2 will not prevent folding, but chipping. I still like D-2, as its chipping is rare and small.

Still, the forces to the edge a folder can deliver are far less. The edge holding extrastout described for his S35VN ZT 0450cf is about what I would expect from all the CPMs steels I have tried so far; S30V, CPM 3V, CPM 154: About like a swiss army knife, same hardness in use but harder to sharpen. A Chinese steel low-end Kershaw I used was similar in behaviour to a Gerber in S30V: Micro-folding on cardboard, while a 70 year old "unknown stainless" Sabatier Jeune "Boy Scout" knife of the 1940s (a sort of K-Bar looking 7" fighter), with an extremely thin 0.010" edge base at 10 degrees per side, held up beautifully in the cardboard, and even did fair when -lightly- chopping Maple (but it is fairly hard to sharpen).

In general there is no miracle: Hard to sharpen will hold an edge, but stainless CPMs manage to sharpen hard, and micro-fold their edge fast, even at 20 per side for the whole edge, not just the micro-bevel.

Gaston

 

[The Aflac Duck]

15 degrees per side should be the bare bones minimum sharpness for a folder...

I use 12-14 per side on large choppers, but most steels, with the energy a big knife can deliver, do require a -tiny- 20 per side micro-bevel to hold up their apex straight. D-2 is an exception in that it does not micro-fold, even without micro-bevel(!), but it will, very occasionally, do a small chip: The 20 degree micro-bevel for D-2 will not prevent folding, but chipping. I still like D-2, as its chipping is rare and small.

Still, the forces to the edge a folder can deliver are far less. The edge holding extrastout described for his S35VN ZT 0450cf is about what I would expect from all the CPMs steels I have tried so far; S30V, CPM 3V, CPM 154: About like a swiss army knife, same hardness in use but harder to sharpen. A Chinese steel low-end Kershaw I used was similar in behaviour to a Gerber in S30V: Micro-folding on cardboard, while a 70 year old "unknown stainless" Sabatier Jeune "Boy Scout" knife of the 1940s (a sort of K-Bar looking 7" fighter), with an extremely thin 0.010" edge base at 10 degrees per side, held up beautifully in the cardboard, and even did fair when -lightly- chopping Maple (but it is fairly hard to sharpen).

In general there is no miracle: Hard to sharpen will hold an edge, but stainless CPMs manage to sharpen hard, and micro-fold their edge fast, even at 20 per side for the whole edge, not just the micro-bevel.

Gaston

Wow, can you float with all of that hot air?

 

[extrastout]

That's definitely not the norm for S35VN or S30V. It should glide through the first few cuts like butter, but the edge will lose that crisp razor apex quickly, and develop a toothy working edge that takes a little more force but still annihilates cardboard, and should hold that for a bloody long time.

Honestly I would recommend sending the knife back to ZT for a check on the blade. It's possible it's the geometry you put on the edge, but it is also possible that you simply got a lemon. I have had lemons in the past, it's just something that occasionally happens with manufactured products.

its the original factory edge profile, I just touch it up, about 5 light strokes on a water stone each side, which brings back the razor edge. The blade works fine "glides through" on the first package of stock but not on the third or fourth. This is how it was from factory, and proceeded to perform this way after touchups....then its just a rough cutting working edge that nothing to write home about

 

[extrastout]

Ever hear of click bait genius??
The knives he claims to have had trouble with were never sent back to the companies that made them.
Why wouldn't he want to get to the bottom of the issue??

You seem to be baiting him now...