ZT 0300 Disappoints...

[LadyEarth]

Because they are (foolish is using the term lightly). Abusing a tool and complaining that if failed to do what it was never meant to do, is just mind numbingly silly. My folding knife is not a hammer, or an ice chipper, or anything else but a moderately strong cutting tool.

Beyond that, even when you DO have to abuse a tool, a little brain power goes a long way. There is never a reason to use a locked blade back as a strike point. either fold it (so it cannot collapse on your fingers, and you can control it), or use the butt (which on most knives is stronger anyway).

As it is, i on a ZT0200, and with understanding of any folding knives limitations, have no fear of using it.

Yes, a knife is meant to cut. But there are many situations where heavy duty cutting are needed. Taken from ZT website, "...premium-quality folding knife built to stand up to heavy-duty use and harsh, real-world conditions." therefore it should never disengage lock unless under extreme/harsh condition. If it disengages, whether it is a 200 or a 300, then it is not performing as advertised. Mine was heavy duty work out in the trails. I did not feel safe with a knife that has a lock that constantly unlocks itself during light easy work. So in order to keep my fingers/hands safe, I replaced it with a more reliable product, a ZT 550 that was able to live up to ZT's motto many times over.

And now the ZT 200 is discontinued.

My point is, if a company advertises using such strong words as the above quote from their website and the product doesn't performs its intended "tough" design (and if a cold steel can stay locked during a "pointless" spine whack) then we have a right to voice such concerns, particularly when other ZT products performs its locking functions better.

Subjective opinions is not a factor here. Objective designs of a knife is. It is very clear that it does not perform as intended.

 

[asdf12345]

I can see pounding the spine with a hammer while the knife's in a vise to be destructive and unrealistic.

But light spinewhacking is not an invalid test, especially since the knife would likely experience similar forces during the "hard use" that ZT's knives are marketed as being capable of doing. For example, twisting & tugging on a knife whose blade is stuck in wood.

When you're making the compromise of extra weight & bulkiness in order to have a "beefy", "tank-like" framelock supposedly capable of "hard use", you would expect the lock to at least not close under minimal shock, putting your safety at risk.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Well I am not a fan of the spine whacking test. It is not representative of the conditions the knife will see under normal use. In most cases your fingers are wrapped around the handle fortifying the effectiveness of the lock. I much prefer putting pressure on the back of the blade. If the lock slips or fails then I feel its valid. "light whacks" is rather vague and can vary from person to person. Having a knife fail under normal use is one thing. Having it fold when you dont want it to by subjecting it to conditions it would never normally see with said use? What does it prove? Its kinda like the nutfancy video where they batons with a DPX hest and is shocked to see it developed lock rock. Abuse = failure. Its really that simple.

 

[craytab]

Saw a video where someone spine whacks their ZT, and I thought, surely, it would pass no problem. It failed! They were testing a ZT0200, you could find this video easily enough on the web.

So I own a ZT0300, and figured mine must be better -- it's a Ti frame lock, so I tried it.
I don't normally spine whack any of my knives, and I've only ever had a liner lock fail and close on me.

So I gave my ZT0300 a light whack on the spine and it failed. For reference, I whacked it on my shin, so it wasn't very hard at all. I figured I must have not opened it right, so I tried it again. FAILED.

Unbelievable. I don't want to hear anything about how a spine whack is invalid. I don't care. I cannot close the knife by putting pressure on the spine, but that light whack against my shin caused it to fail, every time.

Anyone think I should even bother contacting Kai about it, or are they just gonna tell me not to spine whack my knife?

Let me get this right. So you are smacking the back of your knife against your shin? I don't think the problem is with the knife. I think you might be using your knife the wrong way.

And why post a rant like this if you don't want it to be discussed? Makes no sense.

 

[craytab]

Also Mqqn, your remarks can be seen as trolling as it doesn't contributes either pro or con in details to the topic at hand so that was done in poor taste in light of a person's frustration with a product he owns.

By frustrations you mean using the KNIFE in appropriately.

hhmoore, you made his choices seem like a foolish one ("I rarely find myself confronted by wild blocks of ice, with nothing available for defense than a pocket knife..." "...and other more appropriate tools for things like that.", etc)
That is still assuming he didn't do it appropriately. It is very evident what your intentions were; pure assumptions that his choices to spine whack a knife was a poor one via using your own choices to illustrate the point.

It is a knife, not a club. Go read ZT's warranty to see what a folding knife is meant for.

True, his post could be subjectively seen as "trolling"...until people like me are having the same problem with another model (ZT 200), thus giving actual weights to his concerns. Mine was a valid concern enough to replace the knife in question. Now we will just have to see how he will handle his own choices with the knife he owns at this present time.

It is not a "problem". A folding knife is not a club. It cuts things.

Yes, a knife is meant to cut. But there are many situations where heavy duty cutting are needed. Taken from ZT website, "...premium-quality folding knife built to stand up to heavy-duty use and harsh, real-world conditions." therefore it should never disengage lock unless under extreme/harsh condition. If it disengages, whether it is a 200 or a 300, then it is not performing as advertised. Mine was heavy duty work out in the trails. I did not feel safe with a knife that has a lock that constantly unlocks itself during light easy work. So in order to keep my fingers/hands safe, I replaced it with a more reliable product, a ZT 550 that was able to live up to ZT's motto many times over.

And now the ZT 200 is discontinued.

My point is, if a company advertises using such strong words as the above quote from their website and the product doesn't performs its intended "tough" design (and if a cold steel can stay locked during a "pointless" spine whack) then we have a right to voice such concerns, particularly when other ZT products performs its locking functions better.

Subjective opinions is not a factor here. Objective designs of a knife is. It is very clear that it does not perform as intended.

Pure marketing BS. Do you notice that now where in that marketing talk they defined what hard use is? Do you know why they do that? It is marketing.

Again, the knife is not being used as a knife. Smacking the spine against stuff is not the proper use of a knife. Go read ZT's warranty to see what it covers and how you are intended to use their products.

 

[LadyEarth]

Well I am not a fan of the spine whacking test. It is not representative of the conditions the knife will see under normal use. In most cases your fingers are wrapped around the handle fortifying the effectiveness of the lock. I much prefer putting pressure on the back of the blade. If the lock slips or fails then I feel its valid. "light whacks" is rather vague and can vary from person to person. Having a knife fail under normal use is one thing. Having it fold when you dont want it to by subjecting it to conditions it would never normally see with said use? What does it prove? Its kinda like the nutfancy video where they batons with a DPX hest and is shocked to see it developed lock rock. Abuse = failure. Its really that simple.

ZT is meant to be "abused" via hard use. But if the locks cannot be heavy duty and disengages too easily, like I and others has already mentioned above, that is not performing as per advertised by ZT. That simply means the lock is not up to par for its task such as my case. I don't see why it is such a hard thing to understand; Zero Tolerance is not a Gentleman knife. It is a line of knives that is designed to stand up to "abuse" and hard use. This is directly from the website: "...premium-quality folding knife built to stand up to heavy-duty use and harsh, real-world conditions."

 

[craytab]

ZT is meant to be "abused" via hard use. But if the locks cannot be heavy duty and disengages too easily, like I and others has already mentioned above, that is not performing as per advertised by ZT. That simply means the lock is not up to par for its task such as my case. I don't see why it is such a hard thing to understand; Zero Tolerance is not a Gentleman knife. It is a line of knives that is designed to stand up to "abuse" and hard use. This is directly from the website: "...premium-quality folding knife built to stand up to heavy-duty use and harsh, real-world conditions."

You are falling for the silly marketing BS. What does hard use mean? ZT does not define it. Rather, in their warranty they clearly say the knife is only for cutting.

A survival knife doesn't help you survive just because it is called a survival knife. It is a marketing term. It is advertising. People fall for good marketing of a multitude of products all the time, just like what is happening here.

A hard use knife isn't meant to be used as a club. IF you choose to use a folding knife as a club, prepare to be disappointed rather than whining about how it didn't preform as tool that it is not.

 

[skyhorse]

Buck had a similar issue with the Sawby and it was swiftly discontinued.
Joe Houser Joe Houser is offline
Moderator
Join Date
Aug 1999
Location
Post Falls, Idaho U.S.A.
Posts
3,129
Robb,

We stopped production on that sereis when we discovered that the lock strength was not up to our standards. If you took the knife and smacked it against the heel of your shoe, the lock would sometimes fail.
There are maybe 2000 531's out there that did not come back to the factory during the recall. About half as many 535's and only 5 532's. If you ever see one of the 532's, with the standard inlays, it is most likely one of two that belong to Chuck Buck that were "Liberated" from his possession a few years back.

------------------
Joe Houser
Director of Quality, Buck Knives Inc.
Buck Collectors club Administrator
Quick reply to this message Reply Reply With Quote Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message
03-23-2000, 08:18 PM #3 CJ Buck's Avatar CJ Buck CJ Buck is offline
Moderator
Join Date
Apr 1999
Location
Post Falls, Idaho
Posts
896
The lock mechcanism was an interesting thing. The lock centered around a spring tension that forced a protrusion into a gap in the blade. When you smacked the back of the knife hard agains your shoe etc the sudden stop in momentum would compress the spring unlocking the knife. The lock would not fail in normal use but we felt that this was such a normal test for lockback knives that if our knife failed this "test" people would complain and even worse hurt themselves.

Case in point...one funny story was at that Shot Show where we were telling our dealers that the knife would not be ready in time because we were redesigning the lock, our then VP sales and marketing was demonstrating to a large dealer the shoe test. The knife failed and the razor sharp blade bit into his thumb all the way to the bone. Blood everywhere.

He answered all dealer questions from then on just by showing his bandage...

------------------
CJ Buck
Buck Knives, Inc.
AKTI Member #PR00003


Quick reply to this message Reply Reply With Quote Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message

 

[Vedenant]

There's actually several "valid" uses for a spine whack. I've used the spine of my BM Adamas to chop some ice of a larger block (no need to wear out the edge if not necessary) I've also opened wallnuts with spine whacks. That said, I wouldn't do it with a liner or framelocking folder.

I'm with you on this, surest thing is to go either axis of triad.

 

[jprime84]

I have a 0200 and a 0301 and neither of them fails to any kind of reasonable spine whack. I would have the knives worked on by KAI.

Its not ridiculous to make sure they dont close on an accidental light spine whack. While under normal use they should never have to take a full swing spine whack vs a block of wood (but bonus points if they do) its reasonable to think that they might get inadvertent whacks during some kind of chopping task. Say you are whacking some small back budding limbs off of a shrub or small tree. You could easily raise the knife to hit your target, and accidentally hit another branch above or behind the knife, and if your lock fails this could mean the blade coming down on your fingers depending on your grip.

 

[skyhorse]

I believe ZT will fix that knife under warranty. That lock shouldn't fail so easily.

 

[LadyEarth]

You are falling for the silly marketing BS. What does hard use mean? ZT does not define it. Rather, in their warranty they clearly say the knife is only for cutting.

A survival knife doesn't help you survive just because it is called a survival knife. It is a marketing term. It is advertising. People fall for good marketing of a multitude of products all the time, just like what is happening here.

A hard use knife isn't meant to be used as a club. IF you choose to use a folding knife as a club, prepare to be disappointed rather than whining about how it didn't preform as tool that it is not.

It is too bad you're missing the whole point. I'm not going to indulge you any further other than to encourage you to look at the real issues we have already typed above instead of "It's a knife so therefore it's a knife so it has no other issues or functions except to cut!" while ignoring very clear design flaws that were designed to keep a knife open so it can do its job.

Tsk some people just thinks by the thin edge of the blades rather than the whole body of the picture.

 

[snippy]

I have never heard of this "shoe test". Interesting.

Eric

 

[LadyEarth]

I have a 0200 and a 0301 and neither of them fails to any kind of reasonable spine whack. I would have the knives worked on by KAI.

Its not ridiculous to make sure they dont close on an accidental light spine whack. While under normal use they should never have to take a full swing spine whack vs a block of wood (but bonus points if they do) its reasonable to think that they might get inadvertent whacks during some kind of chopping task. Say you are whacking some small back budding limbs off of a shrub or small tree. You could easily raise the knife to hit your target, and accidentally hit another branch above or behind the knife, and if your lock fails this could mean the blade coming down on your fingers depending on your grip.

Absolutely this ^^^

The naysayers needs to get a grip and see real life ramifications when a knife has a weakness in design.

 

[craytab]

I have a 0200 and a 0301 and neither of them fails to any kind of reasonable spine whack. I would have the knives worked on by KAI.

Its not ridiculous to make sure they dont close on an accidental light spine whack. While under normal use they should never have to take a full swing spine whack vs a block of wood (but bonus points if they do) its reasonable to think that they might get inadvertent whacks during some kind of chopping task. Say you are whacking some small back budding limbs off of a shrub or small tree. You could easily raise the knife to hit your target, and accidentally hit another branch above or behind the knife, and if your lock fails this could mean the blade coming down on your fingers depending on your grip.

Okay, but in your example would your hand not be clinched around the lock bar putting pressure on it and holding it in place? The problem with a spine whack test is that there is very little pressure being put on the lock because it is not a real world use grip on a knife.

Perhaps the OP could do a spine whack test with his fingers wrappend around the knife. I mean, if we are going to do this let's do it right

 

[craytab]

It is too bad you're missing the whole point. I'm not going to indulge you any further other than to encourage you to look at the real issues we have already typed above instead of "It's a knife so therefore it's a knife so it has no other issues or functions except to cut!" while ignoring very clear design flaws that were designed to keep a knife open so it can do its job.

Tsk some people just thinks by the thin edge of the blades rather than the whole body of the picture.

Too bad you are falling for marketing terms and ignoring the fact that it is a folding knife! Look at the warranty. That's what is covered. That's what it is meant to do and in fact ZT explicitly tells you that.

 

[B.F.U]

I think it's a pretty common problem with frame locks, more than people want to admit. It's likely the geometry, I don't know what KAI would say.

 

[Vedenant]

You are falling for the silly marketing BS. What does hard use mean? ....

I was once at a party the only person around who confessed having a knife in the pocket. It was a lovely piece of kit by the name of Mini Pika.....

I ended up opening close to 50 oysters with it; absolutely ruined the edge. I was able to restore it mostly with re-profile and sharpening, but it was left as a shadow of its former self....

Clearly that was HARD use for that particular knife, and it did not stand up to it.

 

[jprime84]

Okay, but in your example would your hand not be clinched around the lock bar putting pressure on it and holding it in place? The problem with a spine whack test is that there is very little pressure being put on the lock because it is not a real world use grip on a knife.

Maybe but not necessarily, and this wouldnt help in the case of a liner lock. I do agree that these sort of tasks are a good reason to have a fixed blade around.

However, if someones 0200 or 0300 or any liner lock/frame lock will repeatedly fail when presented with a minor bump to the spine I would consider that specific knife to have an issue either due to past abuse or to simply having an unfortunate mating of the lock and the blade that is prone to failure. This doesnt mean that every knife of that model is bad or the design is bad though. Sometimes you buy a lemon, and from what I hear KAI will try to work with you to get it fixed. If you bought another one I would doubt that you would have the same issue, but who knows.

 

[skyhorse]

Your lock is covered under ZT warranty.
Parts requests are for warranty replacement (defective parts) only. Please note that we cannot send parts for discontinued models or parts other than those listed here. Please check all that apply: V
HANDLE SCREWSPIVOT BOLT SET ( SAFETY LOCK ) POCKET CLIPPOCKET CLIP SCREWSTORSION BAR