ZT 0300 Disappoints...

[craytab]

On Youtube, in 5 pages of results, 9 videos of ZT 0300 series or 0550 series showing lock failure with light pressure, light taps or moderate use.
In 12 pages of results, zero videos showing the Adamas lock fail (or any other Axis lock) with light pressure, light taps or moderate use. One video showing the Adamas failing, in a test by Benchmade involving the knife in a vise with pressure applied to the spine, over 140 ft lbs of pressure.
In 12 pages of results, zero videos showing the Recon 1 lock fail (or any other Triad lock) with light pressure, light taps or moderate use. Several videos show Triad locked knives failing in some way. All of these videos show abuse including violent spinewhacks and batoning, or throwing the knife against solid objects repeatedly. On some, the blade snaps before the lock gives.



A ZT 301 costs almost 3 times as much as a Recon 1 with CTS-XHP.

The marketing matters because people purchase these knives for strength, or perceived strength at least. They don't purchase them as gentleman's knives, as paring knives, as skinning knives, as woodworking knives, as compact EDCs, etc. They are designed in a certain size with certain materials, and their companies claim certain things about those knives.



Seems to me that idiots barely able to operate cameras and computers would have a little bit of trouble conspirating to release several videos showing failures over a span of years just to discredit ZT and their locks. Oh, and the fact that some of those Youtubers making the videos own & praise ZT knives in their other videos? Well, that's obviously just a clever distraction!

Oh, so you have no actually qualitative evidence? You just have a bunch of youtube videos? Never mind then. Argument dismissed as absolute hear say..

 

[asdf12345]

I think you need to pay better attention when skimming someones posts for something to disagree with. I never said it was ZT and ZT alone. I said people are more inclined to speak up when they arent happy than when they are satisfied. This is true with any brand. And IMHO Kai outsells most other brands by a pretty large margin. When you push the kind of volume that company is putting out mistakes will be made. And by the law of averages alone more will be likely to voice their opinion with more units sold and more defective items sold.

I apologize, I misunderstood when you suggested that people with low post counts & recent join dates that were making these threads; I thought you meant those posts were specifically about ZT.

Also have you ever noticed that many of these threads are started by people with low post counts and less than a month on the board?

 

[co556guy]

OP.

If you don't like your 0300, feel free to send it to me. I'll home it for free.

Oh, and ZT and DPx gear are the least represented knife brand in my stable (I have one, each).

 

[LadyEarth]

Everyone else has effectively stripped every one of your talking points of any semblance of validity, so I don't have much else to add. There is no checkmate and I did not assume, I offered actual real world feedback .... And to correct you, yes, I check every knife sent to me for existing issues before working on it. I do this to avoid receiving any blame for any issues a knife may have had prior coming to me. I acknowledge there are some locks with issues, try reading my post its there. The point I was making is that if the OP already admits to abusing the knife in multiple different ways, you cant hold any lock failures on the manufacturer, as you don't know what was done to it. I appreciate your "background" in knives, and I like conversations that pick apart arguments offering both sides of an argument....but you really take it to the extreme. You have multiple posts in the thread that really just stir up un-necessary BS. before you go patting yourself on the back for "putting me in check" (cute gif by the way), don't think your handful of "friends" makes you the one to definitively say they have design flaws and need to fix each one, I have lots of "friends" too but they are not relevant to the conversation you and I are involved in. At least I am offering first hand knowledge based on actual experience and usage over an extended period of time, guess I just gotta trust your "friends" though huh? Your arguments are laughable, your assertions are incorrect, and your arguments are still reaking of bullshit. I do however wish you the best....from one knife lover to another.

respectfully yours
Keeth

The difference between yours and mine is I used mine in real world situations where objects has been in the way above the knife. I slipped and moderately hit the top of the ZT 200 and it disengaged but it didn't go far enough to close onto my fingers. Other coworkers over the years has shown me theirs and often expressed concerns about theirs. Some swears by it which is just fine with me. So I personally witnessed others in person their issues. The issues the knives have has real world consequences so I find it worrisome that such is disregarded by the masses in this thread. It is very evident that ZT is the designer of the lock of the ZT 200, hence they're also responsible for the issues it has, responsible enough to actually address it with a better design that I now have in my daily carry, the ZT 550. It should be very clear that it is not the user end that causes the lock failures in most cases.

Rival, you're just choosing to turn a blind eye to the issues that has been very clear for a long while now.

asdf12345 has been saying it a lot better than I have.

 

[craytab]

Should I take my chance on a knife that not only is more likely to have that issue but is also heavier, bulkier and more expensive? Especially when the knives being compared are all designed & marketed as overbuilt?

I'm not saying that ZTs are bad knives or that I hate them as a company. I wouldn't be concerned about this with knives like the ZT 808 for example, which is a nice lightweight EDC. To hard-use & abuse that knife would not be in accordance with the design. But when you're talking about thick, beefy folders with average length blades that weigh upwards of 7 oz and are more expensive than the competition, that's a different story. Although I would not tolerate easy lock disengagement on any knife, it is especially insulting to see it happen on a knife like a ZT 0300.

Ther's that marketing thing again that has you confused. The 808 is just as thick blade wise as a 0560. You can't pick and choose where you apply your logic.

 

[asdf12345]

Oh, so you have no actually qualitative evidence? You just have a bunch of youtube videos? Never mind then. Argument dismissed as absolute hear say..

You're absolutely right, those videos showing those disengagement problems were 100% fake. There was actually no issue with those knives, it was all doctored by malicious Youtubers to look like there was. What an effective and successful plot to discredit ZT. Surprising that those mouth-breathers could pull of such a feat of conspiracy!

And where did those missing videos showing the disengagement problems of the other knives go? I looked long and hard for them! Oh right, they were all pulled from Youtube by Benchmade and Cold Steel themselves. That pesky Benchmade and Cold Steel, at it again!

Didn't address my other responses to your questions? No problem and I understand completely, it's much easier to just dismiss everything. After all, brushing trash under the rug is much easier than dealing with it!

 

[PURPLEDC]

I apologize, I misunderstood when you suggested that people with low post counts & recent join dates that were making these threads; I thought you meant those posts were specifically about ZT.

No, and I also dont think anyone is making anything up. Im just saying that in any case where someone with 10 posts to their name starts a "my knife failed" thread they rarely resurface or have any longevity on the forum. And in many cases they state their case and dont even come back to update anyone or even post a reply to any of the question initially asked about their knife. So for me these people dont have too much credibility. For one I know nothing of their experience with knives, the condition of their knife, whether they bought it new or used, if it was modified or if it is properly maintained and clean when the failure occured.

a good example of this was a year or two back when a guy had a problem with a ZT 560. He was complaining of lock failure. People were asking questions and over the course of the discussion one thing became apparent and that was this person was actually making the lock fail by actually putting pressure on the lockbar while at the same time putting pressure on the back of the blade. We figured that out because he actually posted a video of this mysterious lock failure and you can clearly see he had his thumb on the lockbar and was pushing it and forcing it to fail. He thought he was being slick. When called on it I cant remember if he just disappeared or if there was some finality to it but the point was is that you cant always trust personal testimonials. There are too many variables and until I have all the facts I am not going to hold any company accountable as we dont have enough information. This goes for ANY company. KAI sells a ton of knives. Much more than CRK, probably more than benchmade and I would say a lot more than cold steel.

Do I think that cold steels Triad lock and benchades axis locks are better as locks? Sure. But those knives were designed around their locks. The point was to create the most robust and failure free design possible. No one says that about a frame lock. In fact most will openly admit it is a compromise. But both benchmade and cold steel still produce other knives without those stronger lock designs. And I think it would be more fair to compare lock failures with the same type of lock. And even if you can say that the triad and axis lock are more reliable than a frame lock I still dont feel the spine whack test is valid as it does not demonstrate real world conditions. No analogies or metaphors. Whacking a knife on its spine is not indicative of any situation you would find yourself in with a knife, especially in relation to grip that would fortify the lock. Either way the OPs claims may be genuine. The knife very well may be defective. But I think we are pretty far off from proving that. And its irresponsible to start berating and belittling a company for a "defect" we dont know exists.

 

[craytab]

You're absolutely right, those videos showing those disengagement problems were 100% fake. There was actually no issue with those knives, it was all doctored by malicious Youtubers to look like there was. What an effective and successful plot to discredit ZT. Surprising that those mouth-breathers could pull of such a feat of conspiracy!

And where did those missing videos showing the disengagement problems of the other knives go? I looked long and hard for them! Oh right, they were all pulled from Youtube by Benchmade and Cold Steel themselves. That pesky Benchmade and Cold Steel, at it again!

Didn't address my other responses to your questions? No problem and I understand completely, it's much easier to just dismiss everything. After all, brushing trash under the rug is much easier than dealing with it!

Did I ever say there was a conspiracy about trashing ZT? Did I ever say that all the videos of other knives failing where removed? Where do you come up with this stuff.

What I am saying is that who knows what these people on the internet do to their knives and then post about them. Who knows. You sure as snot don't and neither do I. This makes it hear say and in no way any sort of credible evidence to be presented as a basis for your and other's assertions trashing a company. This is basic college research methods/argument stuff. Sorry, but a bunch of folks on youtube aren't evidence. They are just a bunch of folks on youtube, no matter what credit you might want to give them.

 

[asdf12345]

Ther's that marketing thing again that has you confused. The 808 is just as thick blade wise as a 0560. You can't pick and choose where you apply your logic.

Not getting where you're coming from. The Spyderco Dog Tag has a blade just about as thick as the Paramilitary 2.

Design, thickness and weight are very important. The 808 has a shorter blade and is pretty lightweight at 4.3 ounces - would make a nice EDC for around-town. I'm not taking that to do serious tasks like chopping, because of its shorter handle and shorter blade. If I had to do those tasks I'd pick up a ZT 300 or 560. They, and similarly sized knives from other manufacturers, are built such that they are more suitable for those tasks than smaller knives. The likelihood is greater that a knife built in that manner would be subjected to forces where the strength of the knife and the knife's lock really matters. I'm perfectly willing to deal with a larger carry package that weighs more - if I'm getting a considerably stronger knife in return.

 

[PURPLEDC]

The difference between yours and mine is I used mine in real world situations where objects has been in the way above the knife. I slipped and moderately hit the top of the ZT 200 and it disengaged but it didn't go far enough to close onto my fingers.

I really hope not. Because if it did you were either holding it wrong or you ground off the flipper. Anyone who says a 0200 folded on their fingers and did physical harm was either lying or holding the knife with the last 3" of the handle.

 

[craytab]

a good example of this was a year or two back when a guy had a problem with a ZT 560. He was complaining of lock failure. People were asking questions and over the course of the discussion one thing became apparent and that was this person was actually making the lock fail by actually putting pressure on the lockbar while at the same time putting pressure on the back of the blade. We figured that out because he actually posted a video of this mysterious lock failure and you can clearly see he had his thumb on the lockbar and was pushing it and forcing it to fail. He thought he was being slick. When called on it I cant remember if he just disappeared or if there was some finality to it but the point was is that you cant always trust personal testimonials. There are too many variables and until I have all the facts I am not going to hold any company accountable as we dont have enough information. This goes for ANY company. KAI sells a ton of knives. Much more than CRK, probably more than benchmade and I would say a lot more than cold steel.

Do I think that cold steels Triad lock and benchades axis locks are better as locks? Sure. But those knives were designed around their locks. The point was to create the most robust and failure free design possible. No one says that about a frame lock. In fact most will openly admit it is a compromise. But both benchmade and cold steel still produce other knives without those stronger lock designs. And I think it would be more fair to compare lock failures with the same type of lock. And even if you can say that the triad and axis lock are more reliable than a frame lock I still dont feel the spine whack test is valid as it does not demonstrate real world conditions. No analogies or metaphors. Whacking a knife on its spine is not indicative of any situation you would find yourself in with a knife, especially in relation to grip that would fortify the lock. Either way the OPs claims may be genuine. The knife very well may be defective. But I think we are pretty far off from proving that. And its irresponsible to start berating and belittling a company for a "defect" we dont know exists.

My gosh. Way too much logic and reason here for this thread.

 

[PURPLEDC]

My gosh. Way too much logic and reason here for this thread.

I know man, and to think I wrote it!

 

[craytab]

Not getting where you're coming from. The Spyderco Dog Tag has a blade just about as thick as the Paramilitary 2.

Go reread what you wrote. You will notice I bolded it for you in my quotation of you. You said the 808 was not a "hard use" knife. You are choosing which marketing terms can be applied to which knife. It has the same blade thickness as a 0560. It doesn't weigh that much less either. And what the hell does a Spyderco Dog Tag or PM2 have to do with this?

 

[cricketdave]

I'm still trying to figure out how zt was making the defective 200 model and addressed that by changing the lock on the 550. Weird line of logic there. I'm sure that somewhere in this thread is a cogent realistic suggestion or argument or something but man its like fishing in the dark and then discovering you were in a parking lot.

 

[singularity35]

Yes, it is such a hard thing to understand why people feel compelled to spine whack their knives. Please explain in what real life situation you'd need to do this. Pretty sure there's no situation in which you'd need to spine whack your knife, it's just for people who want to find something to whine about, regardless of the fact its a pointless test..

It's "not up to par for its task such as my case" well, what is your "case" then? Spine whacking a knife until it fails? Have fun man.

You didn't specifically say folder, so here's how coconuts are cracked open.

[video=youtube;Fi8HUN2ebag]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fi8HUN2ebag[/video]

 

[Ajack60]

Do you know that there are more people bitten by a Labrador Retriever every year than any other breed of dog. Why, people own more labs than any other breed/brand.
Think about it.

 

[Rival1314]

The difference between yours and mine is I used mine in real world situations where objects has been in the way above the knife. I slipped and moderately hit the top of the ZT 200 and it disengaged but it didn't go far enough to close onto my fingers. Other coworkers over the years has shown me theirs and often expressed concerns about theirs. Some swears by it which is just fine with me. So I personally witnessed others in person their issues. The issues the knives have has real world consequences so I find it worrisome that such is disregarded by the masses in this thread. It is very evident that ZT is the designer of the lock of the ZT 200, hence they're also responsible for the issues it has, responsible enough to actually address it with a better design that I now have in my daily carry, the ZT 550. It should be very clear that it is not the user end that causes the lock failures in most cases.

Rival, you're just choosing to turn a blind eye to the issues that has been very clear for a long while now.

asdf12345 has been saying it a lot better than I have.

So now you are making the mistake of assuming, which is what you put me on blast for in your previous call out. Not a fan of practicing what you preach eh? You assume I don't use my knives in the real world? Not even worth a response, my use of my knives is well documented....is yours? Your last statement is the most truth you have spouted in the entire thread ... everyone else makes a better argument than you. I haven't turned a blind eye, in fact I see clearly that even my four year old is capable of better stating her thoughts and arguments than you. Crawl back under the troll bridge while the adults have a conversation. And dont make the mistake of assuming you know anything about me. Take the personal attacks out of your arguments and there is nothing left but hot air and hearsay.

 

[ev13wt]

No dog in this fight, but one thing is clear about the marketing: No matter what KAI makes, from chefs knives to Kershaw.... Their marketing is top dollar. Naturally, the more a company spends on marketing, the less money for the product.

Take it how you will, but for me it is a reason not to buy anything KAI. I don't even care if it is good or not. Zillions of knives across various brand. No thanks.

Same reason I will never own a Boker.

 

[Blade Runner 7]

I think the people on here that say spine whacking is pointless, haven't had a bad lock. I had a Leek with a terrible lock. I accidentally hit the spine on a counter while cutting something. It gave me a nice cut across my index finger. I wasn't intentionally spine whacking it but it should have held up to that. I had to treat that knife like a slip joint after that. If I tapped the spine on the back of my hand it will fold. I was pretty disappointed.

I'm a big ZT fan so don't get me wrong here. I will buy their knives as long as they are being made. BUT....I'm not a fanatic. I don't feel the need to join the ZT club. (or any "club" for that matter). If there is a problem, lets call it a problem. For some weird reason, there seems to be a few brands that have extremist followers. You mention any issue and they jump down your throat and always claim "user error". ZT is one of those. I had one of the early 0560s. It had TERRIBLE lock stick. I'm talking the kind that can't be disengaged without a separate tool. I posted about it and every ZT fanboy claimed I didn't know how to use a knife and I had girl hand etc.... Then the jimping under the flipper was so sharp that is would leave scratches on my finger from using the flipper. I posted about that and I got the same responses. Low and behold lots of people later showed up with those same problems. ZT even decided to stop making the jimping so aggressive. Seems I was right all along.

Then I got a 0801S110V recently. It had a detent hole I hadn't seen before. I ask a simple question to see if other people had it on their knives. The response? ZT fans got all defensive and kept telling me it was OK. I wasn't asking if it was a problem. Just asking if other people had it. Only one person would answer my question. Everyone else (some of whom are in this thread ) jumped to defend ZT. It wasn't even an attack or criticism. The worst part is that I later find out that ZT reps on another message board are making snarky comments about my post. Very unprofessional ZT.

I really wish the KAI fans would mellow out a bit. I spend a lot of time in the Busse forum so maybe I'm just spoiled. Everyone seems to get along there sooooo much better. Someone comes on there with an issue or complaint? The community tries to help out as best they can. ZT on the other hand is more like a gang. If you don't post much, you better become a member before asking any questions or having any concerns.

 

[co556guy]

I think the people on here that say spine whacking is pointless, haven't had a bad lock. I had a Leek with a terrible lock. I accidentally hit the spine on a counter while cutting something. It gave me a nice cut across my index finger. I wasn't intentionally spine whacking it but it should have held up to that. I had to treat that knife like a slip joint after that. If I tapped the spine on the back of my hand it will fold. I was pretty disappointed.

I'm a big ZT fan so don't get me wrong here. I will buy their knives as long as they are being made. BUT....I'm not a fanatic. I don't feel the need to join the ZT club. :roll eyes: (or any "club" for that matter). If there is a problem, lets call it a problem. For some weird reason, there seems to be a few brands that have extremist followers. You mention any issue and they jump down your throat and always claim "user error". ZT is one of those. I had one of the early 0560s. It had TERRIBLE lock stick. I'm talking the kind that can't be disengaged without a separate tool. I posted about it and every ZT fanboy claimed I didn't know how to use a knife and I had girl hand etc.... Then the jimping under the flipper was so sharp that is would leave scratches on my finger from using the flipper. I posted about that and I got the same responses. Low and behold lots of people later showed up with those same problems. ZT even decided to stop making the jimping so aggressive. Seems I was right all along.

Then I got a 0801S110V recently. It had a detent hole I hadn't seen before. I ask a simple question to see if other people had it on their knives. The response? ZT fans got all defensive and kept telling me it was OK. I wasn't asking if it was a problem. Just asking if other people had it. Only one person would answer my question. Everyone else (some of whom are in this thread ) jumped to defend ZT. It wasn't even an attack or criticism. The worst part is that I later find out that ZT reps on another message board are making snarky comments about my post. Very unprofessional ZT.

I really wish the KAI fans would mellow out a bit. I spend a lot of time in the Busse forum so maybe I'm just spoiled. Everyone seems to get along there sooooo much better. Someone comes on there with an issue or complaint? The community tries to help out as best they can. ZT on the other had is more like a gang. If you don't post much, you better become a member before asking any questions or having any concerns.

I think a lot of that just has to do with popularity....and people who like them get tired of getting trolled.

On another forum I visit, Glock is a common target of jabs, criticism, and such. Quality firearm. Reliable. But every single Glock thread someone has to throw a Glock grenade gif into, etc.

I honestly think that it's just the more popular something is, the more it irritates the people who disagree with that popularity, and they get rabid about it because nobody understands...etc.