ZT 0300 Disappoints...

[aaron1972]

Buy a hammer to wack stuff with, they are cheaper. It's amazing what some people come up with and then complain when it goes wrong.

 

[asdf12345]

VBulletin is crashing when I try quote you at the moment but this is in response to you, PURPLEDC.

You called attention to the fact that people are more likely to complain and praise, and that some of these threads are made by people who haven't been on the board long and don't have a high post count.

To that I say,

Where are the constant posts about Axis locks failing through light spinewhacks?

Where are the constant posts about Triad locks failing through light spinewhacks?

Where are the constant posts about Sebenzas failing through light spinewhacks?

I can't imagine that any of these companies have less detractors than ZT does, in fact, I believe it to be the opposite.

Say what you want about CRK but it's rare to see reports of those framelocks failing because of light pressure or gentle spinewhacks.

You may not like Cold Steel's aesthetic or attitude but you can't deny that few have complained about the sturdiness of those locks.

Same goes for Benchmade - some hate the Axis lock. Few if any say it's easily overcome by hand pressure.

If in fact the trolls are on the loose, where are all the complaints about those locks? Do you think people just keep their Benchmades, Cold Steels and CRKs in the safe?

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Exactly.

But wait, in this thread we have been asked not to discuss the spine whack test. It is irrelevant. This is about how all ZT 200s (even though the OP is about a 300) need to be replaced plus are discontinued due to design flaw and how possibly since the 200 is obviously flawed (even though this thread is about the 300s) the 300s are flawed as well. Or wait, what is this thread about?

This is a bunch of garbage. OP, send your knife in. Also stop hitting yourself in the shin. Sounds painful.

To be honest, I use a tap on shin or forearm to check locks on my knives. I've seen a few makers recommend a spine tap (not a whack, though both are pretty imprecise). I figure if I do it too hard I'll have a nice, purple reminder not to hit so hard the next time.

 

[craytab]

The system is not letting me quote you at the moment but this is in response to you, PURPLEDC.

You wrote:

Where are the constant posts about Axis locks failing through light spinewhacks?

Where are the constant posts about Triad locks failing through light spinewhacks?

Where are the constant posts about Sebenzas failing through light spinewhacks?

I can't imagine that any of these companies have less detractors than ZT does, in fact, I believe it to be the opposite.

Say what you want about CRK but it's rare to see reports of those framelocks failing because of light pressure or gentle spinewhacks.

You may not like Cold Steel's aesthetic or attitude but you can't deny that few have complained about the sturdiness of those locks.

Same goes for Benchmade - some hate the Axis lock. Few say it's easily overcome.

If in fact the trolls are on the loose, where are all the complaints about those locks? Do you think people just keep their Benchmades, Cold Steels and CRKs in the safe?

I have not spine whacked any of the knives/companies you list though I own examples from all. It is not a valid test in many folks opinion. In what real situation when I am "hard" using my 301 where my hand is gripping the handle, and thus frame lock, tightly will the lock be hit so hard on the back of the blade to overcome the lock and my hand pressure on said lock? JR posted a situation earlier but I would be holding the lock bar tightly in place at that point. It would take catastrophic failure for the lock to disengage.

And where is all this evidence of specifically ZTs failing (maybe getting as specific as the 300s or even the 200s even though this thread is about the 300s). Out of the tens of thousands of knives sold by ZT you seem to think that they have enough evidence against them to have a specific problem. Prove it. Compare it empirically to other companies. Otherwise this argument is useless....

 

[asdf12345]

Why are you so bent on taking marketing literally? Overbuilt is a relative term. And for every zt with a lock issue you have hundreds if not thousands that do not. And you cant compare a cold steel to a zt. Its like saying a casio g shock is a better watch than a rolex because the g shock keeps better time. They are completely different products and they function completely different. And i think the real point here is to NOT bash on ANY brand for the random failures we will hear about as it doesnt represent the majority of the products produced. Trust me if there is anyone who knows its me and that there is a fine line between calling attention to an established and verifiable problem and taking any and every opportunity to take a jab at a company. One thing you are right about and that is under normal conditions you may accidentally hit the spine of your knife. But that isnt what happened here. If it had the persons fingers would most likely been wrapped around the handle fortifying the lock preventing the failure. But i know this is the land of endless what ifs so lets entertain that. What if the persons fingers were not on the lock? Then they wouldnt be in the way to get hurt. But but but what if their fingers were in the way and the lock STILL failed? Then the flipper would have hit their finger preventing an injury though i would argue they were not holding he knife properly. Right now i am looking at buying a new hand gun. But i have no intentions of loading it, cocking it and dropping it on purpose to see if it will unintentionally fire. Nor will i be doing hammer or slide taps. I also dont hood whack my car, or head whack my daughter.

It is not like saying a Casio is better than a Rolex. That phrase gets thrown around often, but it's not a player here.

All the knives I mentioned are at similar price points, have similar features and are designed, built & marketed as 'strong' knives.

It is like comparing one Casio model which is more likely to have functionality problems out of the box, is more bulky and heavy, and costs more, to a different Casio model that is less likely to have functionality problems out of the box, is lighter and carries better, and costs less.

In any case, browse Youtube and you will find various models of ZT framelocks disengaging through hand pressure alone, through light spinewhacks, and through use.

Even if the chance is small to begin with, would you purchase a gun that, new out of box, was shown to accidentally fire through slide taps & pressure on the frame? Especially if there were other guns that were the same size, but lighter and less expensive, and had fewer problems?

Even if the chance is small to begin with, would you purchase a car that, brand new, was shown to fail at a greater rate than other cars with fewer failures, better gas mileage, similar features, and a lower price?

 

[craytab]

To be honest, I use a tap on shin or forearm to check locks on my knives. I've seen a few makers recommend a spine tap (not a whack, though both are pretty imprecise). I figure if I do it too hard I'll have a nice, purple reminder not to hit so hard the next time.

Like I said, sounds painful :thumbup:

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Like I said, sounds painful :thumbup:

Yup. But it's a feature, not a bug!

 

[craytab]

All the knives I mentioned are at similar price points, have similar features and are designed, built & marketed as 'strong' knives.

CRK, Benchmade, CS, and ZT. Yup all similar in price, features, and design, oh, and that crazy marketing thing.

In any case, browse Youtube and you will find various models of ZT framelocks disengaging through hand pressure alone, through light spinewhacks, and through use.

And there goes all credibility.

Even if the chance is small to begin with, would you purchase a gun that, new out of box, was shown to accidentally fire through slide taps & pressure on the frame? Especially if there were other guns that were the same size, but lighter and less expensive, and had fewer problems?

Even if the chance is small to begin with, would you purchase a car that, brand new, was shown to fail at a greater rate than other cars with fewer failures, better gas mileage, similar features, and a lower price?

Cars? Guns? Watches? Youtube?

Not relevant.

Any knife from any manufacturer can have issues. Send it in if it bothers you and stop using the wrong side of the blade to interact with real life.

 

[craytab]

Yup. But it's a feature, not a bug!

True! It says "don't hit me any more!"

 

[asdf12345]

I have not spine whacked any of the knives/companies you list though I own examples from all. It is not a valid test in many folks opinion. In what real situation when I am "hard" using my 301 where my hand is gripping the handle, and thus frame lock, tightly will the lock be hit so hard on the back of the blade to overcome the lock and my hand pressure on said lock? JR posted a situation earlier but I would be holding the lock bar tightly in place at that point. It would take catastrophic failure for the lock to disengage.

And where is all this evidence of specifically ZTs failing (maybe getting as specific as the 300s or even the 200s even though this thread is about the 300s). Out of the tens of thousands of knives sold by ZT you seem to think that they have enough evidence against them to have a specific problem. Prove it. Compare it empirically to other companies. Otherwise this argument is useless....

I would say that more Youtube videos demonstrating easy failure, and more forums posts discussing easy failure, suffice. When I say 'easy' failure I mean light spinewhacks, hand pressure, light to moderate use. Of course any knife's lock will break if you put it in a vise and take a sledgehammer to it - those instances don't matter in the slightest.

Unless of course, you happen to believe:

-People test ZT's knives more than any other, and that's why there are more documented failures. People just aren't testing those other knives nearly as much.
-People are more willing to forgive easy lock failure when it happens to any other company but ZT, and that's why they aren't posting their lock failures on Youtube or the forums.
-People are out to spread lies about ZT and ZT alone. You rarely see people complaining that their Benchmade, Cold Steel or CRK easily disengaged because there simply are far fewer haters and trolls.

 

[asdf12345]

CRK, Benchmade, CS, and ZT. Yup all similar in price, features, and design, oh, and that crazy marketing thing.

I was referring to my post concerning the Benchmade Adamas, the Cold Steel Recon and the ZT 0300. Those three are similar in price, features, design, and how they are marketed.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. When I mentioned the lack of people complaining about easy disengagement on their CRKs, Benchmades and Cold Steels, that was in response to PurpleDC's claims that people are eager to complain and to bash ZT and ZT alone.

And there goes all credibility.

You're absolutely right, every Youtube video made showing the easy disengagements of the lock were all made by people with an irrational hatred of ZT. They must have all gotten together and agreed to slowly release these videos over a span of years just to discredit ZT. What an extremely organized and meticulous conspiracy!

Cars? Guns? Watches? Youtube?

Not relevant.

I think you forgot to quote PurpleDC on this, as he made the comparison with cars, guns & watches. I guess for you analogies are only wrong & irrelevant if you disagree with the person who's making them.

Any knife from any manufacturer can have issues. Send it in if it bothers you and stop using the wrong side of the blade to interact with real life.

Some manufacturers have more issues than others, while offering a more expensive, heavier, more bulky knife than comparable knives from the competition.

 

[PURPLEDC]

VBulletin is crashing when I try quote you at the moment but this is in response to you, PURPLEDC.

You called attention to the fact that people are more likely to complain and praise, and that some of these threads are made by people who haven't been on the board long and don't have a high post count.

To that I say,

Where are the constant posts about Axis locks failing through light spinewhacks?

Where are the constant posts about Triad locks failing through light spinewhacks?

Where are the constant posts about Sebenzas failing through light spinewhacks?

I can't imagine that any of these companies have less detractors than ZT does, in fact, I believe it to be the opposite.

Say what you want about CRK but it's rare to see reports of those framelocks failing because of light pressure or gentle spinewhacks.

You may not like Cold Steel's aesthetic or attitude but you can't deny that few have complained about the sturdiness of those locks.

Same goes for Benchmade - some hate the Axis lock. Few if any say it's easily overcome by hand pressure.

If in fact the trolls are on the loose, where are all the complaints about those locks? Do you think people just keep their Benchmades, Cold Steels and CRKs in the safe?

I see what you are doing. You are trying to imply that there are constant threads about lock failures with ZT. I dont agree with you. But If you really want to find threads about failures with sebenzas they are out there. Im sure you have heard of google. As for axis and triads those knives are designed around the lock strength first and foremost. Liner and frame locks are a compromise. They are not an exercise in lock strength. Why am I even answering your questions when you refuse to answer mine. Why are you bent on marketing claims? And why do you think tests exposing a knife to conditions that wont be found in real world use are valid? You know I had a few knives that failed the spinewhack test. But you want to know how I figured it out? by spinewhacking. You want to know how many times those knives failed when using them as a knife? Never. If the test was any indicator of real world conditions I might give a crap but its not. And there are plenty of brands that have worse build quality and more failures than kai. Oddly enough we dont see you complain much about them. You seem to have an axe to grind with the company. I was there once. Then I saw the error in my ways. Im hoping you do too. The only thing we have proved here is that when irrational people do irrational things there is no rationalizing with them.

 

[craytab]

Unless of course, you happen to believe:

-People test ZT's knives more than any other, and that's why there are more documented failures. People just aren't testing those other knives nearly as much.

Let us see this "documented" proof you speak of. This is how argumentation works. When you claim there is proof you have to actually show it. Why not compile all the youtube videos and threads and whatever else and throw it in a spread sheet. Let's see what you got!

I was referring to my post concerning the Benchmade Adamas, the Cold Steel Recon and the ZT 0300. Those three are similar in price, features, design, and how they are marketed.

So, a ZT 301 is similar in price to a Recon 1? Or shall I choose another, less expensive CS for you to compare price to...

And again, the marketing is just that....

You're absolutely right, every Youtube video made showing the easy disengagements of the lock were all made by people with an irrational hatred of ZT. They must have all gotten together and agreed to slowly release these videos over a span of years just to discredit ZT. What an extremely organized and meticulous conspiracy!

And, again....every company will have failures. Youtube is at best qualitative evidence. At worst it is mostly just a bunch of idiots with enough money to buy expensive knives and who are miraculously smart enough to operate some sort of camera and a computer. Your faith in interweb videos is condemning.

I think you forgot to quote PurpleDC on this, as he made the comparison with cars, guns & watches. I guess for you analogies are only wrong & irrelevant if you disagree with the person who's making them.

I don't quote him anymore unless it is relevant. We agree on some things and disagree on others. This issue now is with this silly "spine whack" thread that has turned into an attack on ZT.

Some manufacturers have more issues than others, while offering a more expensive, heavier, more bulky knife than comparable knives from the competition.

And here are the true colors. It is fine if you do but just realize arguing with those that don't is going to get tiring. I am certainly not a ZT fan boy so you can just put that argument away before you bring it up. I have some ZTs but I have a ton of other manufacturers as well. And at hart, I am more of a fixed blade guy anyway, of which I have non from ZT. As it were, JR mentioned it way earlier, this whole situation could be avoided by using the right tool for the right job: if you are going to be doing something that might make you folder fail, perhaps bring a small fixed blade. I know I have been carrying one a lot more recently, mostly for when I open my Corona and I am transported to a Tropical Island (my couch). There's that marketing thing again...

 

[asdf12345]

I see what you are doing. You are trying to imply that there are constant threads about lock failures with ZT. I dont agree with you. But If you really want to find threads about failures with sebenzas they are out there. Im sure you have heard of google. As for axis and triads those knives are designed around the lock strength first and foremost. Liner and frame locks are a compromise. They are not an exercise in lock strength. Why am I even answering your questions when you refuse to answer mine. Why are you bent on marketing claims? And why do you think tests exposing a knife to conditions that wont be found in real world use are valid? You know I had a few knives that failed the spinewhack test. But you want to know how I figured it out? by spinewhacking. You want to know how many times those knives failed when using them as a knife? Never. If the test was any indicator of real world conditions I might give a crap but its not. And there are plenty of brands that have worse build quality and more failures than kai. Oddly enough we dont see you complain much about them. You seem to have an axe to grind with the company. I was there once. Then I saw the error in my ways. Im hoping you do too. The only thing we have proved here is that when irrational people do irrational things there is no rationalizing with them.

I was responding to your implication that people are out to get ZT by making fake posts about easy disengagements. I assume you also think the reports of those who chime in with their own experiences are fake too.

I say what I think about all brands, not just KAI. Such as my issues with finish & QC details on many, many Benchmades I owned in the past. Issues with Microtech telling me I might not see my warranty job for 4-5 months. Issues with production Emersons not being cost-effective knives compared to competing offerings. This happens to be a thread about ZTs so I will talk about that, and make comparisons to other knives to support my point.

Of course I don't think a knife should be subjected to extreme abuse to try to prove that they're not strong, no one thinks that. But the fact that there are reports of certain knives closing so easy that you can lightly tap it and it will close or you can even close it with your hand does not seem like a safe knife to me. None of those knives should leave the factory that way. Yes, some do. But when more come from a certain company than others, then what can you say? Should I take my chance on a knife that not only is more likely to have that issue but is also heavier, bulkier and more expensive? Especially when the knives being compared are all designed & marketed as overbuilt?

I'm not saying that ZTs are bad knives or that I hate them as a company. I wouldn't be concerned about this with knives like the ZT 808 for example, which is a nice lightweight EDC. To hard-use & abuse that knife would not be in accordance with the design. But when you're talking about thick, beefy folders with average length blades that weigh upwards of 7 oz and are more expensive than the competition, that's a different story. Although I would not tolerate easy lock disengagement on any knife, it is especially insulting to see it happen on a knife like a ZT 0300.

 

[mqqn]

Well! If its ad copy on a website it has to be true! Though, I have yet to open a beer and have a bunch of women in bikinis run up to me in slow motion. What gives?

Happens to me all the time. Wait, are you spine whacking your knives? That might be it...

best

mqqn

 

[craytab]

Happens to me all the time. Wait, are you spine whacking your knives? That might be it...

best

mqqn

Maybe we should spine whack on our beer?...No, that doesn't make sense either. I don't get it.

 

[LadyEarth]

Certain folks in here are forgetting that the power of a product's own reputation is on how well the company can market said product. If they advertise it one way, the buyers will expect it to perform as advertised. If it doesn't perform as advertise, it will A. be see as false advertisement and B. turn away buyers now that the buyers cannot trust what the companies advertised for their products. It is simple Economy 101.

Don't give me wrong, I'm big fan of ZT knives but due to these experiences with certain knives, I'm now much more careful in which one I buy. It is a lesson well learned.

 

[asdf12345]

Let us see this "documented" proof you speak of. This is how argumentation works. When you claim there is proof you have to actually show it. Why not compile all the youtube videos and threads and whatever else and throw it in a spread sheet. Let's see what you got!

On Youtube, in 5 pages of results, 9 videos of ZT 0300 series or 0550 series showing lock failure with light pressure, light taps or moderate use.
In 12 pages of results, zero videos showing the Adamas lock fail (or any other Axis lock) with light pressure, light taps or moderate use. One video showing the Adamas failing, in a test by Benchmade involving the knife in a vise with pressure applied to the spine, over 140 ft lbs of pressure.
In 12 pages of results, zero videos showing the Recon 1 lock fail (or any other Triad lock) with light pressure, light taps or moderate use. Several videos show Triad locked knives failing in some way. All of these videos show abuse including violent spinewhacks and batoning, or throwing the knife against solid objects repeatedly. On some, the blade snaps before the lock gives.

So, a ZT 301 is similar in price to a Recon 1? Or shall I choose another, less expensive CS for you to compare price to...

And again, the marketing is just that....

A ZT 301 costs almost 3 times as much as a Recon 1 with CTS-XHP.

The marketing matters because people purchase these knives for strength, or perceived strength at least. They don't purchase them as gentleman's knives, as paring knives, as skinning knives, as woodworking knives, as compact EDCs, etc. They are designed in a certain size with certain materials, and their companies claim certain things about those knives.

And, again....every company will have failures. Youtube is at best qualitative evidence. At worst it is mostly just a bunch of idiots with enough money to buy expensive knives and who are miraculously smart enough to operate some sort of camera and a computer. Your faith in interweb videos is condemning.

Seems to me that idiots barely able to operate cameras and computers would have a little bit of trouble conspirating to release several videos showing failures over a span of years just to discredit ZT and their locks. Oh, and the fact that some of those Youtubers making the videos own & praise ZT knives in their other videos? Well, that's obviously just a clever distraction!

 

[craytab]

Certain folks in here are forgetting that the power of a product's own reputation is on how well the company can market said product. If they advertise it one way, the buyers will expect it to perform as advertised. If it doesn't perform as advertise, it will A. be see as false advertisement and B. turn away buyers now that the buyers cannot trust what the companies advertised for their products. It is simple Economy 101.

Don't give me wrong, I'm big fan of ZT knives but due to these experiences with certain knives, I'm now much more careful in which one I buy. It is a lesson well learned.

Certain folks are forgoing common sense and forgetting to read the fine print. This is how not to get screwed 101.

 

[PURPLEDC]

that was in response to PurpleDC's claims that people are eager to complain and to bash ZT and ZT alone.

I think you need to pay better attention when skimming someones posts for something to disagree with. I never said it was ZT and ZT alone. I said people are more inclined to speak up when they arent happy than when they are satisfied. This is true with any brand. And IMHO Kai outsells most other brands by a pretty large margin. When you push the kind of volume that company is putting out mistakes will be made. And by the law of averages alone more will be likely to voice their opinion with more units sold and more defective items sold.