ZT hit its peak? Or are they just morphing into something else?

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bodog said:
Please keep your flaming away. Any constructive conversation appreciated.

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What is ZT doing? Are they looking for simple profits from the knife market or are they serving people in a way those people haven't been served before? I know what they were founded on. Now it seems like once they became recognized they left the front liners to Gerber or whoever, yet again, while serving some guys who rarely make it away from their desk except to fondle their knives like some troll from lord of the rings movie talking about their "precious."
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So you dont want "flaming", but you call ZT fans "guys who rarely make it away from their desk except to fondle their knives like some troll from lord of the rings movie talking about their "precious.""

Isn't that deliberate flaming/trolling/stirring the pot right there? How is name calling "constructive conversation"?

If you can establish that your description fits the ZT fans here, then I will retract what I said.

(I never have liked ZT, for the record.)
 
The 0562 and 0909 are great working knives, and the 0180 is my favorite small fixed blade. My main gripe with ZT is the exclusive use of frame and liner lock. The MUDD was a great departure, and then, nothing. For hard use, I will reach for a frame or liner lock exactly zero percent of the time, because frankly I do not trust them at all, especially with steel inserts. I have four or five knives with these locks that would close by just lightly pushing on the back of the blade, with the lock engaged. One was the ZT 0780 and another was an ADV Butcher (the worst knife I've ever owned, but that's another story).

IMO opinion, ZT makes the most aesthetically pleasing, fun to play with, nicest flipping knives out there. I understand why they haven't explored new locks because they are wildly successful as is. However, for me, they are more eye candy and light users than hard users. For that I'm looking to an Axis lock, compression lock, Triad or Scorpion lock (or fixed blade).
 
I owned several early model ZTs. I liked the 0550 the most. I don't own any of them anymore.

The new models don't interest me at all, partially due to design, and partially due to the constant use of bearings. Can't stand knives that run on bearings for the most part.

Regardless of my distaste in them, they are certainly cashing in on a market of people willing to drop thousands of dollars on LE after LE with a different color anodize. They are a business and they are making money... lots of it. I'm sure the knives are capable of hard use, too.
 
NYOutdoors said:
I owned several early model ZTs. I liked the 0550 the most. I don't own any of them anymore.

The new models don't interest me at all, partially due to design, and partially due to the constant use of bearings. Can't stand knives that run on bearings for the most part.

Regardless of my distaste in them, they are certainly cashing in on a market of people willing to drop thousands of dollars on LE after LE with a different color anodize. They are a business and they are making money... lots of it. I'm sure the knives are capable of hard use, too.
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Can you explain your dislike of bearings? I tend to agree with you, as I have found they tend to get gunked up and gritty very quickly when used outdoors, as opposed to washers.
 
marcinek said:
So you dont want "flaming", but you call ZT fans "guys who rarely make it away from their desk except to fondle their knives like some troll from lord of the rings movie talking about their "precious.""

Isn't that deliberate flaming/trolling/stirring the pot right there? How is name calling "constructive conversation"?

If you can establish that your description fits the ZT fans here, then I will retract what I said.
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Agreed 100%.

How is it that one asks for responses to not be trollish in return when the OP seems to be just that?

Furthermore the OP goes on t ask for a discussion, but yet he hasn't done anything aside from offer his initial post and cause three+ pages of superfluous chatter and most people agreeing that they aren't that bad, just not what HE wants them to be, or thinks that He knows better than they do.

Here's a tidbit for ya...
They do this because it is what the (purchasing) masses want. Obviously you are in the (unfortunately) not so silent minority.
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Personally, I like most ZTs. I have a 770cfM4, and would love to get my hands on a 562, but would also take a 566 in a heartbeat.
 
NJBillK said:
Agreed 100%.

How is it that one asks for responses to not be trollish in return when the OP seems to be just that?

Furthermore the OP goes on t ask for a discussion, but yet he hasn't done anything aside from offer his initial post and cause three+ pages of superfluous chatter and most people agreeing that they aren't that bad, just not what HE wants them to be, or thinks that He knows better than they do.

Here's a tidbit for ya...
They do this because it is what the (purchasing) masses want. Obviously you are in the (unfortunately) not so silent minority.
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Personally, I like most ZTs. I have a 770cfM4, and would love to get my hands on a 562, but would also take a 566 in a heartbeat.
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Don't forget we had a good half a page talking about what causes us hot spots..
I love my 0770, not my favorite to carry daily but at times it just feels right. My 0620 and 0801 see most use of my ZT stable or of all my knives for that matter. For some reason or the other I just prefer them two, they fit me perfectly..
 
bodog said:
.... Then came the 0600, 0777, the 0454, 0450, etc. Great, solid knives. But starting towards "pocket candy" status. Beautiful but it took jumping over some some internal hurdles to EDC these as a first responder/ law enforcement, and especially military. Owned a 0600 and was blown away with the quality. Didn't like the steel all THAT much but it was good. It was now I was questioning whether they were actually for any kind of first responder or LEO or especially military. This is where they deviated from what they were founded upon. They were still beefy and COULD be considered good for first responders and LEOs, but really, no one cut from that cloth would carry them.

<snip>

Their internal designers don't have a clue anymore about what to produce for the front liners. They have money to produce some really great things but they're not putting that into knives actually meant for anyone they originally catered to.

The point of the thread is exactly that. Is ZT anything more than pocket jewelry at this point? When I say that I mean in any kind of real way. Are they still serving the front line guys? Or are they moving to simple display pieces meant to show that China doesn't rule the roost? What are they doing now except showing that something that can be done IS being done without regard to any real life consideration? What kind of average grunt in Afghanistan would EVER think about buying a 0999 or a piece that looks like an angry bird turd missile?
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My take on this is that ZT should make what sells. They make enough for "front liners". I have no interest in pocket bricks with modern knives. I don't particularly like flippers and that is what they seem to be making lately. So, I don't even look at their line any more.

Should they go back to their "roots"?.... I say no. I would go with diversity or product to accommodate as many users as possible.
 
Shouldn't we really be asking: "Has OP hit his peak as a troll? Or is he just morphing into something else?"
 
My take is this. Kershaw is making some good budget knives. ZT is now aiming towards crazy designs that push the envelope. But there's a big gap between $20 clamshell packaged knives at Walmart (kershaw) and $700 certificate of authenticity premium knives made to show off. Sure, they have knives that fall into the $200-$250 price range but most people won't buy those. Most people think $100-150 is expensive but worth it for good quality. ZT started in this price range and it obviously worked. Guys wanted a little something to show off that'd work hard. Not drop a corvette payment on a knife.

I posit that ZT should return to its roots in A line. Not solely manufacture knives for walmart and I hope they don't abandon their explorations into crazy manufacturing techniques. But they did abandon the segment that DID build their brand, if anything by simply being fodder for marketing phrases.

Blue class, black class, and gold class. Kershaw line, X line, and Zero Tolerance line. For the X line bring back knives like the MUDD, purpose built to withstand crazy environments. Use steels like Cronidur 30 or CPM154. Keep it relatively cheap but built to high standards. Don't need to experiment much in this line. People know or should know what military and law enforcement guys will want to carry and that $150 is about the top of their price range unless they're knife nuts anyway. Add in some specialty tools for paramedics and special ops types. Make some of these tools off limits to the average joe. Maybe develop a new non-magnetic multitool that exceeds what SOG, Leatherman, Gerber, and Victorinox are producing. Make them where they have to be bought directly from KAI with credentials being necessary. I believe this would bring ZT/KAI back to their roots and produce tools that would be interesting to the average first responder while still catering to us knife nerds and the average Joe who thinks $30 is a lot for a pocket knife.
 
I always liked ZT's older overbuilt designs. And I'm glad they are keeping a lot of those around. Now they are reaching out to a wider range of knife enthusiasts by collaborating with different designers. I personally don't like most of the new ZTs. But that doesn't mean they aren't good designs. I said all that to point out that it seems they are trying to provide knives that are well made and have something for (most) every user/collector. So.... what's the problem?
 
ZT is still making knives like their old school 301 etc, if that's what a person wants they are readily available.

They also have brought that 3/8" bolted pivot forward on a new design.

They have 40+ knives in the lineup today - some being sprint runs or le's that are sold out.

I am not sure what the fixation is for people on the 999. Don't like it, great - move on and go buy yourself something you like.

Don't like ZT - cool - move on and go buy yourself something you really enjoy.

I have been using my 999 constantly since it arrived at my house, and the blade has not been ruined by cutting things, and the CF insert is alive and well even after cutting up some heavy duty pallet separator sheets into target holders. It works great, even without gloves.

I see a lot of people like other brands, there are a lot of great knives being made, and a lot of not so great knives.

ZT is making all of theirs right here in the USA. All of them. They are very successful and from a start up in 10 years they are a major player in the market.

I guess they will have to live with being very successful without the support of the peanut gallery on some forums.

best

mqqn
 
22-rimfire said:
Should they go back to their "roots"?...
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Agreed.
If their "roots" still sold, they wouldn't have ventured out.
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Edit to add a rebuttal.
So, you want a non-mag multitool for <$150?
How do you expect ZT to recoup R&D costs alone on a limited sales volume?

How about their folding knives?
I would be willing to bet that most that need something to cut a seat belt would carry shears, and a Benchmade triage type knife being in the Far Far Minority.

If I was going to be going into a position where I needed to rely on a knife, it would be a fixed blade. Not a folder...

Operators need Operators Tools, not broken (read: folding) Civi Tools...
 
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For years there was very few knife companies, making just a few of the same models year after year. The ones that didn't start bringing out new models regularly are now gone. Or, their brands have been bought and moved to China.
 
skyhorse said:
I don't get the subject of this thread. Zero Tolerance has brought us Ferrari's at Ford prices. I'm looking forward to see what Thomas Welk will bring us next. :)
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I believe the subject of the thread is that Bodog is a high speed low drag badass ninja, who knows what sort of rugged tools are needed by front-liners!

bodog said:
...first responders, law enforcement, military, etc. I knew several guys who...


...EDC these as a first responder/ law enforcement, and especially military...

...questioning whether they were actually for any kind of first responder or LEO or especially military....

...COULD be considered good for first responders and LEOs, but really, no one cut from that cloth would carry them...

...but it's molle compatible and I did need a sheath that's molle compatible so whatever...

...definitely not anything that a first responder could ever conceivably carry on duty. Definitely not anyone in the military would think about taking into the field...

But where are the knives meant for first responders, LEOs, and military guys?

...don't have a clue anymore about what to produce for the front liners...



...Are they still serving the front line guys?...

What kind of average grunt in Afghanistan would EVER think about buying...
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jstn said:
Can you explain your dislike of bearings? I tend to agree with you, as I have found they tend to get gunked up and gritty very quickly when used outdoors, as opposed to washers.
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They do tend to get gunked up and gritty faster than a traditional washer style. Also, the action just feels "cheap" to me. It's tough to explain, but a good flipper on washers feels so much higher quality.
 
NJBillK said:
Agreed.
If their "roots" still sold, they wouldn't have ventured out.
-----
Edit to add a rebuttal.
So, you want a non-mag multitool for <$150?
How do you expect ZT to recoup R&D costs alone on a limited sales volume?

How about their folding knives?
I would be willing to bet that most that need something to cut a seat belt would carry shears, and a Benchmade triage type knife being in the Far Far Minority.

If I was going to be going into a position where I needed to rely on a knife, it would be a fixed blade. Not a folder...

Operators need Operators Tools, not broken (read: folding) Civi Tools...
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Done with you dude. If you think EOD techs don't carry multitools, if you think military engineers don't carry multitools, if you think cops and firefighters and paramedics don't carry folding knives, if you don't think damage controlmen and engineers on ships don't REALLY want some better tools, then I don't know what to say.

I'm suggesting that since they forced Kershaw into the low end market and they forced ZT into the super premium market, then develop a line that creates simple tools and knives for those on the front line who are placing their lives on the line to protect guys like you.

I'll tell you this, I know ALOT of guys who would consider carrying a space pen with an aluminum kubaton body, especially if it was small enough to fit in a pen hole in their uniform shirt pocket AND was reasonably priced. I know several guys that carry small fixed blade karambit type knives behind their mag pouches. They complain about the quality all the time. I know guys who carry small daggers on their body armor and they complain about the sheaths or that they can't really use it for anything else and if THERE WAS JUST a knife that was small like that with a good sheath and could be used and carried on their armor and be used for self defense and for utility tasks, and, for whatever it's worth, looks bad ass, they'd buy it.

Maybe a lot of these guys wouldn't geek out about it all but if their department bought them and issued them out, these guys would carry them and talk about them. The place I work for doesn't give a lot of straight up cash awards but they give things like this at least once a month to several guys. They are also not against buying the right tools for us. If only they were made and marketed.

I think KAI has built enough of a structure and reputation to be taken seriously if they produced these things. I know for a fact that guys are hungry for certain things like what I've already mentioned and they want they want to support American companies but American companies don't produce them or they knock the edge off to sell them on the civilian market.


I'm not talking about trinkets or toys or gimmicks. I'm talking about real tools. None of my ideas are that original but no company is really taking these ideas and consolidating them under one roof, one brand, that's made in America with a solid warranty and making them on a big enough scale to drop the price to something reasonable
 
Mecha said:
I believe the subject of the thread is that Bodog is a high speed low drag badass ninja, who knows what sort of rugged tools are needed by front-liners!
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Three guys I work with were put in the hospital on Christmas Eve and a bad guy went in with a collapsed lung and broken bones in his face. They were doing that to protect you. They deserve tools they want and need and for you to not diminish what they did by trying to make me into some kind of bullshit artist. Some guys are actually out there doing these things and take it seriously. It's not just a hobby or a game or some way to blow money.
 
bodog said:
Three guys I work with were put in the hospital on Christmas Eve and a bad guy went in with a collapsed lung and broken bones in his face. They were doing that to protect you. They deserve tools they want and need and for you to not diminish what they did by trying to make me into some kind of bullshit artist. Some guys are actually out there doing these things and take it seriously. It's not just a hobby or a game or some way to blow money.
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Rough day at the mall?

And nobody broke any faces protecting me on Christmas eve, Bodog. I was safe behind my shield of the internet, just like you! :D
 
I think some of their flagship LE's just look awful. The last one I bought was the 0454 (and a 0777 I sold to a friend at cost), and I honestly don't think I've seen anything as good come out since then.

The 0999... really? I felt the 0606 was lacking too. At those prices, I'm better off finding a custom maker who can put together a knife with top end materials that actually has an appealing design.

Now I do still enjoy some of their regular production items. Really would like it if they just started running unanodized 0392's with different blade shapes from time to time.
 
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