ZT0560 prices: what am I missing?

PolygonalGuy said:
I deal in antiquarian books and it is a cut throat market. A limited signed deluxe run or 72 copies will retail for 179.00. It will sell out within minutes of its launch. I can sell it 750.00 2 months later. Does this make me bad?
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Nope, it just makes you greedy. ;)

We're not making moral judgement here, we're just describing an acquisitive nature in the proper terms.
 
tomsch said:
Think that is bad..... Try looking for a Hinderer. Resale prices completely outpace the value of the product but people will continue to buy them and dealers will continue to raise the prices. Painful but it is supply and demand. This is exactly why I don't support hinder products but will continue to buy fixed price knives such as Chris Reeve.
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I agree with you 100% I'm new to the custom knife area and some things have me shaking my head. It's one thing for people to buy items and flip them due to supply and demand but for dealers to do it is a different story. They should be bound by MSRP or lose their dealer status. Thats just comon business in pretty much every other market I have come across.
 
DapperDan said:
This is just my opinion but I feel the 0560 is just as well made as my Umnumzaan or my production xm-18 and we all know what they sell for. So even at 325.00 I think this knife is a good deal and 260.00 is a bargain. YMMV
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I agree 110%. If you mentioned Hinderer to me a month ago I would of had no clue it was a knife. I recently bought an XM-18 and 0560 and compared them side by side. I would take the 0560 over the Hinderer in a heartbeat, nevermind you can buy 3-4 0560's for the same price :)
 
I thought it was too much for me to spend $300 on this knife but im glad I did. Its well worth it. But Id like to at some point pickup another at the $260. Whats really odd is that Ive seen them sell on ebay for almost $500. That is absolutely retarded. And I really am ashamed of the jerks who are buying 10 of these knives in one sitting only so that they can flip them on ebay. I understand trying to make a few bucks but this is a hobby where we should be trying to help each other out and not sticking it to everyone. I have no problem with legit dealers asking higher prices. I have an issue with the guys who simply sit and wait for stores to show stock of these knives and their only interest is to make money off of them. There are many people out there who want only one of these knives to put in there collections and they cant because of people sniping them. I just cant wait for supply to even out with the demand and some of these snots getting stuck with the knives once the market is flooded.
 
cmacclel said:
I agree 110%. If you mentioned Hinderer to me a month ago I would of had no clue it was a knife. I recently bought an XM-18 and 0560 and compared them side by side. I would take the 0560 over the Hinderer in a heartbeat, nevermind you can buy 3-4 0560's for the same price :)
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Curious why you think that? I don't have either knife (yet, 0560 on friday wooo) but that is definitely a bold statement to say you'd take the ZT in a heartbeat.
 
I think the 0560 is a more attractive knife than the xm18. Ive handled XM18s and I own the 560. There are a couple reasons why I choose to own a production knife over high dollar customs. One is price. An xm18 is an overbuilt knife that is for sure but at the price they usually go for its not something I look at as disposable. A 0560 isnt exactly chump change either but they are easier on the wallet for sure. The second is that IMHO they are comparable as far as materials go. They are both Ti frame lock flipper knives. Kershaw is using the same grade Ti that any knifemaker has the ability to utilize. And the technology for making both frames is comparable. The attention to detail and exclusivity of the hinderer may have some appeal but honestly I think its rather elitist to think that kershaw is not capable of manufacturing a knife that is as reliable as any other maker. You may prefer one brand over another but at the end of the day High grade materials are high grade materials. And CNC machines are CNC machines. The technolgy in which knives are made are very quickly evening the playing field. Your even seeing more and more custom makers leaning heavily on CNC to even cut their blades. So much to the fact that it is blurring the lines of what a custom made knife is and isnt. Im not trying to devalue anything rick hinderer or any other maker does. They make fine products and they obviously have a market. I simply dont feel that there is anything magical or mystical about what they make. In other words NO KNIFE is made by wood elves and sprinkled in fairy dust with unicorn horn scale handles.
 
saying a 560 is as good or better than a xm is crazy. Do you guys think rick hinderer would allow zt to make a knife that could put his business at risk? No The 560 is awesome and is as close as you will get to a xm but not the same. Its like saying a fixed up subaru Wrx or a Honda civic is the same as a ferrari or a lambo because they can have the same 0-60 times.
 
I really don't think Kershaw would go into a collaboration knowing they'll have to purposely "cripple" their knife. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's the case. Now obviously it's not going to be as good since it has to be mass produceable (is that a word) and doesn't have the personal touch of a semi-custom/custom knife.
 
Jfoley4 said:
saying a 560 is as good or better than a xm is crazy. Do you guys think rick hinderer would allow zt to make a knife that could put his business at risk? No The 560 is awesome and is as close as you will get to a xm but not the same. Its like saying a fixed up subaru Wrx or a Honda civic is the same as a ferrari or a lambo because they can have the same 0-60 times.
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There is nothing wrong with a Hinderer he makes a fine knife that is for sure. Is it worth $375 Yes......is it worth $800 not in my opinion. There are many other knifes in the $800 dollar range that I would much rather have. I have right next to me a $1400 Hinderer XM-18 with a custom ground blade, it's nice don't get me wrong but not $1400 nice maybe $500 nice :)

Tell me something you can do with a Hinderer that you can't do with a ZT 0560? The ZT is without a doubt smoother with it's bearing system, uses a better blade steel, and costs 1/3rd as much as the current market rate. Also the XM's are not even really a custom knife as everything is CNC made. Im my book a "Custom" at least deserves a hand ground blade by a master craftsman which is why I'm shelling out the dough in the first place.
 
I can buy a 200 and a 300 for almost what a 560 will cost. This is what I am thinking about doing.
 
00ChevyScott said:
Curious why you think that? I don't have either knife (yet, 0560 on friday wooo) but that is definitely a bold statement to say you'd take the ZT in a heartbeat.
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It's all personal preference. I like the 3d machining on the Titanium side of the ZT, The ZT pivot system due to the bearing is much smoother and the blade just fly's out. The 2, XM-18's I had took some effort to snap the blade open where the ZT's did not. I'm also a lefty and with the ZT you have 4 clip position for lefty / righty / tip Up / tip down carry. Why more MFG do not go with this setup is beyond me. Since I'm a lefty my choices are slim as I only will carry tip up and what has fit that bill for the past 2 years is a SOG Titanium Vision.
 
If you don't think its worth the money don't spend it. Hinderer designed the spanto blade specifically so you can use the knife for things other knife companies warn against. the 560 does flip better but I wouldn't call it smoother by any means. I own both knives and love them both. I'm simply saying the only reason they are being compared is because Rick hinderer designed them both.
 
They market the 0560 as being designed after the xm-18.
That's why they're compared.
And some very good points are being made here.
 
To beat the dead horse a little. The ability to turn a profit is what makes this country great! People making money means people spending money which helps everyone!

I have been wanting a 0560 for a while but just picked up a gunhammer in its place and will snag a 0560 when availability gets a little better. That's just my $.02. I have bought and sold too many things to count and this has aloud me to get things I normally couldn't own.
 
Jfoley4 said:
saying a 560 is as good or better than a xm is crazy. Do you guys think rick hinderer would allow zt to make a knife that could put his business at risk? No The 560 is awesome and is as close as you will get to a xm but not the same. Its like saying a fixed up subaru Wrx or a Honda civic is the same as a ferrari or a lambo because they can have the same 0-60 times.
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No one said better or worse. And rick doesnt have control over another companies quality. The comparison between a subaru and a ferrari holds no water. Ferraris and subarus dont share any commonalities except for the fact they are both cars. They are made from different materials and are for different target markets. There is nothing magical about a knife made by rick hinderer. He is not gandolf and this isnt middle earth. No mithril was used in the making of an xm18. The hinderer is a borderline luxury item. Luxury Items do not have high prices simply because they are well made and reliable products. Your paying for exclusivity and bragging rights. Im not saying that a hinderer is better or worse than a ZT. ZT knives have been shown to be very very reliable and to take a serious beating. So do hinderers. So you tell me, if two knives from two different price points share the same materials and the same methods of manufacture and both hold up equally well in field testing then which one is better? The more expensive one just because it costs more? Face it. At some point once a certain level of quality and reliability is reached its simply a matter of aesthetics, exclusivity and the ever so nagging supply and demand that makes one product more expensive than the other. And if you really want to use the ferrari comparison go ahead because in reality a subaru WRX STI will out corner a ferrari and subaru has a much much better reliability rating. And cheaper to fix than the ferrari. But the ferrari must be the better car since they charge so much for it right?
 
Another thing I forgot is some arent realizing that hinderer at one point had to prove himself in this market. Most makers when first coming on the scene practically give away their work in order to get the word out there. The prices you see are a reflection of his endurance in the market and making a name for himself. But there are plenty of knives that are up to par with his build quality that simply dont pull in the same revenue because they havent built that empire yet. Just look at brad duncan. He could have been great. His knives were on the rise and a couple mistakes sent his resale value into the toilet. There simply comes a point where quality peaks and there is no getting "better" and then other factors take over in regards to price point.

Dont get me wrong. I love that smile factor of having a custom hand polished blade with satin flats in my pocket. And I like the feeling even more when holding it in my hand and admiring it for a work of art. And that is really what we need to compare knives to is art. Some art is technically "better" than others by certain criteria. But at some point the quality of work evens out and its the reputation and popularity of the person behind the work that will force prices. A painting at walmart may be technically flawless yet a Picasso will have higher value for a scribble. Technically the walmart painting is a "better" product but the picasso is worth more. I know that is an extreme comparison but its just to show that its not always quality that is the driving force of cost.
 
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