13C26 Razor Blade Steel -- a Kershaw Junkyard Dog II Review

[msiley]

I should be getting my Leek in the mail in a day or two.
I think I'm going to pick up a mini-cyclone next month (I have a
one knife a month limit

 

[Cliff Stamp]

We would all have to wonder about the accuracies vs Cliff wanting to show himself to be right.

I have put up results on my website which show that I was wrong. The work that I do specifically, as does all science, evolves in that fashion. You hope for refinement, but at times you realize problems. The older reviews are heavily edited to note problems with methods initially used. Of course the fact that I have reviews on knives where I didn't know the steel or the hardness speaks against your nonsense as does the fact I recently formed a group which will again do blind tests on steels. In most cases I won't even know until the tests are completed.

... you've decided it's OK to compromise people who trusted you in doing it.

There is a whole list of assumptions there which are all unfounded.

I will also caution you from calling me a liar ever again, there is no place on any forum for that.

Don't lie then, look up the defination of the word restriction some time.

The restrictions that have Cliff upset are the fact that I shut him down from being involved with the testing...

As I noted several months ago, I have moved past personally doing individual reviews. I still look at knives from time to time but now I am more focused on using the voluntary research group and correlating their BLIND testing with materials measurements. So again Thomas your rants are all lies, because there is no bias unless you assume the several dozen volunteers are all under my control as well as the makers like Phil Wilson who volunteered to do materials testing and large groups like CATRA, yes that all seems sensible.

I do not feel bad about using this average.

I think it is reasonable as long as it is known that it is an approximate, this isn't something specific to the micron level. This is the problem with posting numbers, people will always assume far too much precision unless you give CI's which almost no one does.

However, Sandvik claims that they eliminate all primary carbide in the forging process in all alloys ...

THere are a couple of definations of primary carbide, essentially each stage has a primary and secondary carbide. Statements like the above generally mean there are no large dendretic networks remaining.

... and the micrographs for carbon steels in Landes' book don't look any finer than 1 micron, they look larger to me.

Carbon percentage is really high.

When it's thinned down to approximately 0.012", no, it won't cut like 1095 thinned down to 0.0004", but it will handle most every-day tasks without the person holding the knife having to take care beyond basic safety.

That is always the problem, restrictions in cutting ability for the sake of durability or range of work.

Are there heat-treatment recipes which would uniformly bring 13C26 to a higher level of hardness without a high level of surprizes?

This is a well known steel, there really should not be any clause for experimentation in the discussion. Now as to the effort, you can see Landes heat treatment. Aside from the triple quenching, it isn't overly complicated and this is just his perfectionism showing. This isn't gaining a huge amount of hardness, he is just attempting to minimize as much austenite as he can. Now he is clear you can push past 63 to 65 HRC with the same heat treatment - but this is likely custom only as he generally states production loses about 2 HRC due to less than ideal heating/cooling rates even with the right temperatues and cooling.

-Cliff

 

[nozh2002]

I guess I will never have answers...

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[thombrogan]

That is always the problem, restrictions in cutting ability for the sake of durability or range of work.

You'll see restrictions on Johnston's knives, too. They're easy enough to fix when you remove most of the primary grind cutting binding plastic, but for edge retention, loose, thin-guage steel is their stopping point. When I last checked, he was having super luck with O-186 from Vermont American, but was using thicker grinds than seen on his 1095, M2, and O1 blades.

What we're seeing Kershaw's use of 13C26 is a process of gradual evolution. They started at RC57-58 and have moved up to RC59-61. Given that it's rare to see a production company run S30V above RC58 on a consistant basis, seeing Kershaw do so with a finer-grained steel featuring higher edge-stability and impact resistance (or did I already mention that by saying finer-grained?) is very nice. In a knife you can buy at Wal-Mart for $30 (Storm, Storm II), that's unheard of. Will this decade close up with those same knives featuring a uniform hardness of RC63 and edge-thicknesses averaging 0.007"? Let's wait and see.

This is a well known steel, there really should not be any clause for experimentation in the discussion. Now as to the effort, you can see Landes heat treatment. Aside from the triple quenching, it isn't overly complicated and this is just his perfectionism showing. This isn't gaining a huge amount of hardness, he is just attempting to minimize as much austenite as he can. Now he is clear you can push past 63 to 65 HRC with the same heat treatment - but this is likely custom only as he generally states production loses about 2 HRC due to less than ideal heating/cooling rates even with the right temperatues and cooling.

I'm thinking that the triple-quenching and expected loss of two points of hardness in large batches; escpecially the triple-quenching part; might keep RC63 13C26 knife blades out of the production market for a while. The cooling rates for thin strips of 13C26 versus knife-sized hunks of the same steel do put experimentation into the equation. It's one thing to do one blade at a time, but I don't think Kershaw or the heat-treater for Bark River's 12C27 blades are handling such a low volume. I've been wrong a lot this morning, but might not be wrong on that point.

There isn't anyone who can't do anything better than it's currently being done, but I believe Kershaw's latest 13C26 bladed folders; the JYD, JYD II, and Groove; are better than the S30V stuff which preceded them both in performance and cost. You may find better peformers for less cost, but they're not folding pocketknives and they don't change the fact that knives like the Junk Yard Dog II and the Groove are better peformers than similarly-designed custom knives and so-called higher end productions.

 

[Razorsharp244]

I just read the Blade show 2007 seminar list and I found that Sandvik will present their steels there. I suppose 13C26 will be covered there.

The schedule:
http://www.collect.com/shows/article.asp?id=13921

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You'll see restrictions on Johnston's knives, too.

On all knives, they all have some durability limit. The really crappy thing is that you lose durability way faster than you gain cutting ability, as one is a linear gain and the other a cubic loss.

Given that it's rare to see a production company run S30V above RC58 on a consistant basis ...

We need higher standards, you can buy $5 Mora's with higher hardness levels, not S30V, but actual knife steels. It is kind of sad that this makes an impact on the NA market, you won't see that impact at all overseas because the knives at 1/10 the price are superior. Nor of course they don't have flippers and such, but what are we talking about, steel or gadgets?

Will this decade close up with those same knives featuring a uniform hardness of RC63 and edge-thicknesses averaging 0.007"?

Given the overally nature of those knives, which clearly isn't a focus on a pure cutting tool (the handle says that strongly), you would expect the optimal edge thickness to be 0.010-0.020, with a proper edge angle of course, 10/15 or something similar.

I'm thinking that the triple-quenching and expected loss of two points of hardness in large batches; escpecially the triple-quenching part; might keep RC63 13C26 knife blades out of the production market for a while.

The loss of +2 points is from 65 HRC, not 63 HRC. The triple quenching as noted is perfectionism, it is like mirror polishing a blade vs satin finishing it in that regard. Landes does it because he can, he is a high end custom maker. Then again, the actual time of the multiple tempering isn't that long and it is just two additional tempers. Most of the high carbide steels are mandated to have more than one temper when they are tempered hot as many of them are.

Now what would be interesting is some comparisons of 13C26 vs S30V in terms of slicing aggression, similar to Wilson's which showed it dominated. But it would be closer at 63 vs 58 of course which is the real strength, then the fact that you run it thinner and Swaims edge lifetime viewpoint comes into play.

Now the interesting thing is will any of this change the viewpoint that 440C is "better" than 440A or that AUS-4A is "junk". If 13C26 is accepted as a quality steel and STR's hypothesis is not disputed, then it also has to hold that AUS-4A at 55 HRC, or even 420J2, can not be told apart from Kershaw's 13C26 at 60 HRC.

This of course is nonense, but the point remains. Are people understanding the reasons behind the performance and reclassifying steels based on a C/Cr ratio or is this just a particular brand getting acceptance? Would be interesting to see how it holds when compared to some high wear steels at the initial obtuse angles as it doesn't do well there for slicing aggression.

-Cliff

 

[Kohai999]

If Cliff's pseudo-scientific protestations allowing him to attack experts in the field, that actually DO something(Jerry Hossum, Bob Dozier......, anyone?) did not cause him irreparable damage to his credibility(it did), then his latest personal attacks on Thomas should nail that coffin shut, permanently.

Sorry, Cliff, but even if the science is fundamentally sound(yours is not), if your former supporters(not many) are abandoning you, and no one will listen to you because you have driven them away with your arrogance and blustering, the results of your hard work might just not even exist.

You have reduced your own work to the meaningless and obscure category, and that is a damned shame.

Here we have a steel, a good one. Through the use of INDEPENDENT testers, with no fealty to anyone, regardless of your accusations, changes for the good, it is hoped, are being implemented. But that is not good enough for you.

Instead, you seek to impugne anyone involved, and regardless of your being able to see it for what it is, your writings in this thread display for ALL to see, unvarnished jealousy and a petty and vindictive character.

Have a nice day, ESAD slowly,

STeven Garsson

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Instead, you seek to impugne anyone involved, and regardless of your being able to see it for what it is, your writings in this thread display for ALL to see, unvarnished jealousy and a petty and vindictive character.

Nice to see as always, you contribute to a discussion about steels with your usual wealth of valuable information. As for the rest of your rant, I have not even posted a review in many months, and my site continutes to get more visitors than ever, even though it doesn't even have a front end, or a sensible interface yet as I never got around to writing it. I still get constant emails about knives, requests for reviews, etc. . Don't know when I "attacked" Dozier, Dozier even sent me a knife to review sometime back, which kinds of disputes your always baseless claims. That knife, like many others I own is out on semi-perm passaround. It was reviewed by an individual sometime back. It will go out to another when he finishes with it this year.

-Cliff

 

[DaveH]

Steel arguments aside, I'm fascinated that vendors, either through ignorance or deliberate scheme, are selling knives that don't exist.

 

[thombrogan]

Steel arguments aside, I'm fascinated that vendors, either through ignorance or deliberate scheme, are selling knives that don't exist.

Whatchu talking about, DaveH?

On all knives, they all have some durability limit. The really crappy thing is that you lose durability way faster than you gain cutting ability, as one is a linear gain and the other a cubic loss.

With blades, though, how much durability is needed for cutting? Swaim's argument that thinner edges last longer suggest that you don't need too much of that extra strength if the steel isn't there to get in the way.

We need higher standards, you can buy $5 Mora's with higher hardness levels, not S30V, but actual knife steels. It is kind of sad that this makes an impact on the NA market, you won't see that impact at all overseas because the knives at 1/10 the price are superior. Nor of course they don't have flippers and such, but what are we talking about, steel or gadgets?

My moras cost $9 and $13 US dollars, thank you very much! :grumpy: I can see your argument about wanting higher end knives to have similar or better steel than the mass-produced moras and puukkos, but don't discount the gadgetfactor. All of the advances made in Brazil and the USA in balisongs alone are done for both improved quality and safety and to keep us from slicing up everything in our paths. With non-balisong folders getting neat things like the Ikoma Korth Bearing System, axis locks, toggle locks, ball-bearing locks, and waves, even more material is being spared from superfluous separaion. With folders, I can flick; with fixed blades, I have to chop and cut or practice my Arnis.

Given the overally nature of those knives, which clearly isn't a focus on a pure cutting tool (the handle says that strongly), you would expect the optimal edge thickness to be 0.010-0.020, with a proper edge angle of course, 10/15 or something similar.

I think a folder of that class can handle 0.007" especially since we've both seen tantos and swords with 0.015" single-tempered 1095 edges handle worse. Just don't loan the knife to museum curators or guys wearing bib overalls and you're safe.

The loss of +2 points is from 65 HRC, not 63 HRC. The triple quenching as noted is perfectionism, it is like mirror polishing a blade vs satin finishing it in that regard. Landes does it because he can, he is a high end custom maker. Then again, the actual time of the multiple tempering isn't that long and it is just two additional tempers. Most of the high carbide steels are mandated to have more than one temper when they are tempered hot as many of them are.

You might want to track down an Eagle Scout about that. There may be a reason why triple quenching is needed for AEB-L and 13C26 for certain applications (never thought I'd ever recommend triple quenching without being sarcastic. What's become of me? )

Are people understanding the reasons behind the performance and reclassifying steels based on a C/Cr ratio or is this just a particular brand getting acceptance? Would be interesting to see how it holds when compared to some high wear steels at the initial obtuse angles as it doesn't do well there for slicing aggression.

I believe it's more of a popularity; both of Kershaw and Sandvik. Thankfully, Kershaw runs their 13C26 harder than anyone was running AUS-6. Even their 440A is pretty good (so was pre-bankruptcy Shrade's 440A) and is fun to use on thin edges like their Leek folding pocketknife.

I've done some recent tests on edge stability using hardwood and saw my $13USD (not $5 ) mora fair better than more expensive knives thinned to similar profiles. What doesn't sell me on throwing out all chrome and all large carbides are ZDP doing well on that test and all of the cutting fun afforded to me by SG-2 in my Shun Elite kitchen knives and SKD-11 (aka D2) in Fred's Yoshikane chef knife. I think edge-stability depends on more than grain-size when those three steels can do well at jobs requiring thin, polished edges. What intrigues me is that lower-carbide steels such as 13C26 and O1 and higher-carbide steels such as SG-2 and ZDP-189 fair better than S30V.

STeven,

What Bob Dozier does with D2 goes against the grain of the ASTM's recommendations. They say cryo is a very good thing for that steel and Bob says it's a work-around for a poor heat-treatment so far as blades are concerned. Bob's actions place him contrary to panels of published experts, but you know what? He's just as right for his choices as they are for theirs.

A lot of us here have been influenced by Cliff; not as much as you, of course; and we're all S-N and R-S for these Junkyard Dog II knives even though they're not Cliff's cup of tea in their current incarnations. That's fine by me. Along with cutting stuff, these knives must've been designed to please us Stampies while ticking off Cliff. Must be a duplex structure...

When you finally tire of asking the good doctor to ESAY, you might notice the both of youse agree a lot more on design and material aspects than you differ. For instance, neither of you would bring a tactical cake cutter to Thomas Welk's birthday party.

 

[Kohai999]

STeven,

What Bob Dozier does with D2 goes against the grain of the ASTM's recommendations. They say cryo is a very good thing for that steel and Bob says it's a work-around for a poor heat-treatment so far as blades are concerned. Bob's actions place him contrary to panels of published experts, but you know what? He's just as right for his choices as they are for theirs.

A lot of us here have been influenced by Cliff; not as much as you, of course; and we're all S-N and R-S for these Junkyard Dog II knives even though they're not Cliff's cup of tea in their current incarnations. That's fine by me. Along with cutting stuff, these knives must've been designed to please us Stampies while ticking off Cliff. Must be a duplex structure...

When you finally tire of asking the good doctor to ESAY, you might notice the both of youse agree a lot more on design and material aspects than you differ. For instance, neither of you would bring a tactical cake cutter to Thomas Welk's birthday party.

It is one thing to differ. If we all agreed, there would be no learning. That is one of the things that we are here to do, right?

Never said that Cliff was dumb, mostly wrong, or that there was no merit in what he writes. Said that his arrogance and blustering was going to repel more than attract. It will.

Cliff has tried to paint the picture of Thomas as a glad-handing sales servant of Satan, and this was bad enough, but he flat-out called Thomas a liar, and that is just not right. Thomas has not lied to me in the 14+ years that I have known him. I hate liars as much as the next guy.

Big difference between me and Cliff is that when I talk smack I do it in person as much as on the net. I give people the opportunity to take a shot at me if they feel the need. Cliff doesn't leave his warren.

STeven

 

[Larrin]

Triple quenching as we typically know it has to be modified for any real grain refinement with air hardening and stainless steels. You don't get any higher hardness using a triple quench, though.

 

[thombrogan]

Triple quenching as we typically know it has to be modified for any real grain refinement with air hardening and stainless steels. You don't get any higher hardness using a triple quench, though.

Once a steel is past the butterysoft mark (HRC62), grain refinement is very important. It's important when the steels are soft, too, but I meant for folks wanting to apply the thin, polished edges afforded by high hardness and small grained martensite.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Triple quenching as we typically know it ...

That isn't what Landes does, Landes does triple temper/cryo, not triple austenize/quench. The triple temper/cryo is goaled to reduce retained austenite and thus does gain some hardness, but it is going to be very small. I would be very surprised if you gained a half a point.

Cliff has tried to paint the picture of Thomas as a glad-handing sales servant of Satan, and this was bad enough, but he flat-out called Thomas a liar, and that is just not right.

What I have said is that he, like all salemen, presents a biased argument. THis of course is reacted with shock and dismay by those which like to popogate the nonsense that those that sell products should be the ones used as sources of reference. Yes he lied in the above, several times, like I said look up the meaning of the word RESTRICTION.

Cliff doesn't leave his warren.

Cliff has traveled all over the world, and has never hide his real address if anyone wanted to come meet him, or his phone number if anyone wanted to talk to him. Because Cliff doesn't want to go meet with people who are incapable of having a logical discussion is hardly a personal fault. There is nothing stopping any of those people from coming to see him and never have been in the 9 years he has been active on the internet discussing knives.

With blades, though, how much durability is needed for cutting?

Depends, I am very sloppy (relatively) with Johnsons paring knife, cut up sods and such, which for most people would require insanely thick edges. A lot of it is just experience using very thin edges, I consider something like 0.010 fairly thick now, especially with a flat grind.

My moras cost $9 and $13 US dollars ...

Some of mine have cost $30+, they start off fairly cheap though. If you buy them locally they are way cheaper still. Note that 13C26 is a cheap steel, this doesn't mean it is bad, 1095 is very cheap as well, but you would expect this to be reflected in the price. I would look more towards lock security/reliability to set prices as well as general fit and solidness of construction. The knives generally get solid praise there which could be used to argue that the performance/price was very high.

I think a folder of that class can handle 0.007" especially since we've both seen tantos and swords with 0.015" single-tempered 1095 edges handle worse.

Depends on the user, those handles look tactical to me which doesn't scream really thin edges and high edge stability steels. It is of course always interesting to see any comparative work on knives, but what is the real purpose of knives with such handles. Is this really a delicate push cutting tool?

There may be a reason why triple quenching is needed for AEB-L and 13C26 for certain applications ...

He recommends that in general for high alloy steels, it isn't specific to 13C26. 420HC for example has the same recipe.

What intrigues me is that lower-carbide steels such as 13C26 and O1 and higher-carbide steels such as SG-2 and ZDP-189 fair better than S30V.

S30V is softer in most knives, as low as 55 HRC. This means that the microstructure is very likely far from optimal, blown grain, etc. .

... we're all S-N and R-S for these Junkyard Dog II knives even though they're not Cliff's cup of tea in their current incarnations.

I think the knives look fairly solid, clean grinds, handle looks fairly secure. That type of knife doesn't say "razor blade" to me though, and given the general design I don't see how the benefits of 13C26 are even close to optimal. But it isn't like the bajillion knives in S30V are all sensible either. There are a lot of crazy steel+ design choices, Satan isn't of course being them, just ignorance (well mainly fad).

-Cliff

 

[db]

I personally believe grain size is very important to the edge. Much of the problems and benefits blamed on carbide size I think is more to do with the grain size.
The problem most have with Cliff isn’t how much he knows about cutlery it is his behavior. In fact he knows so much about cutlery he can and often does argue both sides of an issue. This thread is just the most recent example of his behavior. His comments about Thomas are mean and accusative, and his comments about the testers are hypocritical at best. While the Thomas issue is bad I think the tester comments are even more so, damaging in fact. As we don’t really know who the Kershaw testers are he has caste a shadow over every review of a Kershaw knife that is posted. Heck I my self even wonder if DOW is one of the testers. Everyone knows that Cliff and I haven’t really gotten along very well, but even I back in the Maddog days supported Cliff. Heck I still will agree with some of the things he posts. However I have also pointed out some, not all or many of his hypocritical statements, and I am now on his ignore list because of it. We have seen this happen before with Cliff more than once. He goes on the attack all in the name of truth and justice, and self destructs, and many get pissed and some even leave the forums. I personally think he does much more damage than good, even though there are many threads that would be very boring without him posting in them.

 

[Larrin]

I wasn't confusing triple quenching with triple tempering.

 

[hardheart]

Whatchu talking about, DaveH?

13C26 Leeks that are not

I can't wait for the 64.5 Rc Leeks, I want to see what the steel does at that hardness. STR already noted there is a noticeable difference when the Rc is increased. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4365120&postcount=4

I still want a JYD, but I'm going to modify it heavily once I get one. Heck, it's gonna look almost like a Leek

 

[Kohai999]

What I have said is that he, like all salemen, presents a biased argument. THis of course is reacted with shock and dismay by those which like to popogate the nonsense that those that sell products should be the ones used as sources of reference. Yes he lied in the above, several times, like I said look up the meaning of the word RESTRICTION.

I think the knives look fairly solid, clean grinds, handle looks fairly secure. That type of knife doesn't say "razor blade" to me though, and given the general design I don't see how the benefits of 13C26 are even close to optimal. But it isn't like the bajillion knives in S30V are all sensible either. There are a lot of crazy steel+ design choices, Satan isn't of course being them, just ignorance (well mainly fad).

-Cliff

The simplicity and clarity of the above statement contrasts to a large degree with the statement below, which is generalized, vindictive, innaccurate(Cliff, really, STR doesn't have ANYBODY's hand up his ass(I think) ), and really beneath you.

Of course he has positive feedback, he sends out knives to people who are only openly positive about the knives and him in particular, restricts what they can do with them, restricts what they can say about them, and ignores the criticism and focuses only on the positive. If he actually wanted unbiased and meaningful feedback he would be acting in a totally different manner but that is not his goal. Lets not pretend it is a public service he is performing, he is here to promote Kershaw.

Thomas is here to promote Kershaw, have fun AND give something back to the knife community. Wouldn't you agree that he accomplishes that?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Larrin]

I personally believe grain size is very important to the edge. Much of the problems and benefits blamed on carbide size I think is more to do with the grain size.

Actually I think you have it backwards. Some knifemakers make way too big a deal of grain size.

 

[hardheart]

I think that depends on the technology they have available. Grain size can become a big deal when you can't guesstimate your forging temps within a couple hundred degrees.