13C26 Razor Blade Steel -- a Kershaw Junkyard Dog II Review

[db]

Larrin that is very interesting, shure some makers make too big of a deal about everything. What's your feeling on edges and grain size compared to effects of edges by carbide size?

 

[Larrin]

Larrin that is very interesting, shure some makers make too big of a deal about everything. What's your feeling on edges and grain size compared to effects of edges by carbide size?

Small grain size of course contributes to toughness and strength, which can contribute to many things, but carbides have a large affect on everything. It is true that forgers need to know some things about grain size, if they are forging incorrectly they might be getting a very large grain size, and it will no longer hold a fine edge because it is not very tough. What's the reason that stainless steels at high hardness in general are less tough than carbon steels? Because of carbide volume and carbide size. Powder metallurgy is great, but why is it that S30V is still not as tough as 52100? Because 52100's carbides are a micron or less and S30V has carbides of less than 6 microns (Roman Landes says actually some even larger), also S30V has a greater carbide volume. Why does AEB-L hold a very fine edge better than VG-10? Because it has a lower volume of much smaller carbides.

Everything has an affect on the steel: impurities, grain size, alloy, etc. But in my opinion, the biggest difference between different kinds of steel is simply the carbide size, type, and volume.

 

[Dog of War]

... Heck I my self even wonder if DOW is one of the testers. ...

Dang ... caught red-handed! In fact I am actually a salaried full-time employee and report directly to Thom Brogan, who is really a 63 year old Japanese executive living in Tokyo; he looks exactly like Mr Miyagi, drinks only the finest single malt Scotch, and personally puts bamboo under our fingernails if the tests don't come out exactly as he orders!

 

[thombrogan]

Guess I better hide the Johnny Walker Red.

d00d, you're gonna get us in trouble again!

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I wasn't confusing triple quenching with triple tempering.

No, it was just confused and I was pointing out that Landes procedure is different than Fowlers.

STR already noted there is a noticeable difference when the Rc is increased.

I was addressing the comments made here, specifically that a 7 point HRC would not be noticable, that is just nonsense.

Thomas is here to promote Kershaw, have fun AND give something back to the knife community. Wouldn't you agree that he accomplishes that?

He is a salesmen for Kershaw, how well he does his job would be reflected in thier gross sales. As for the other questions, I have no idea if he has fun, and I don't know what the community wants.

He spreads a huge amount of misinformation about steels and performance, but there is a reason why marketing isn't simply reduced to a list of all the positive aspects of your product.

I had posts in three threads concerning Kershaw knives at the same time which were all positive about the knives, or the thread subject and Thomas makes a post and can't resist making a jibe at me. Yet I am the juvenile one.

Again, try using some facts every now and again.

What's the reason that stainless steels at high hardness in general are less tough than carbon steels?

Because they are stainless, compare 12C27M (no carbide), to L6 or S7. Johnston has discussed this in detail many times on rec.knives. Carbide volume always degrades toughness, but the actual elements in the steel to make them stainless does it very strongly as well.

Note that carbide volume can also increase toughness depending on the heat treatment. Specifically for stainless (and a lot of steels) as the austenizing temperature is raised more of the carbide dissolves so there is less carbide in the steel

However the steel is more brittle becuase of the effect the carbon percentage has on the type of martensite formed. The plate/lathe composition has a major impact on toughness.

Now Kohai, see that is actual scientific fact, not vague generalities designed to sell knives. Of course ignore that as always and retort again to meaningless and unsupported personal rants.

Guess I better hide the Johnny Walker Red.

If that is your idea of a superior single malt scotch then that is the saddest statement I have ever heard.

-Cliff

 

[The Mastiff]

Why does AEB-L hold a very fine edge better than VG-10? Because it has a lower volume of much smaller carbides.

If it's doing better than VG10 than it's good indeed. There are so many more steels I'd like to try in knives.

My all time favorites are still the carbon tungston steels and HSS though, and I'd still be using Vascowear but it would be in a spyderco now. Joe

 

[Cliff Stamp]

If it's doing better than VG10 than it's good indeed.

Edge holding is fairly complicated. Generally saying something like A holds an edge better than B is fairly useless because you can say that about any two steels or invert it depending on the type of cutting and how. For example for some materials and on some types of cutting 440A is superior than 440C and on others it inverts.

-Cliff

 

[thombrogan]

No, it was just confused and I was pointing out that Landes procedure is different than Fowlers.

It might be a travesty in 52100 (I said "might" ), but if it reduces retained austenite in AEB-L and 13C26 then slaughter me some ovines to garnish my sacred cows.

If that is your idea of a superior single malt scotch then that is the saddest statement I have ever heard.

It's a blended scotch with only name-recognition and a slightly sweet flavor contributing to its demand (unlike its blended brother JW Black). I was hiding it because Dog of War was saying I drink only single malt scotch.

BTW Cliff, your bias is clearly showing through and revealing its truly grotesque colors. It's been years since you complained that Gerard "Jerry" Busse drinks Carling Black Label and yet you leap down my 13C26-enjoying throat for liking a blended scotch. For shame, Dr. Stamp! For shame! (and if your travels take you to Iran, please read "The Shahname"). I see how it goes around here....

 

[thombrogan]

My all time favorites are still the carbon tungston steels and HSS though, and I'd still be using Vascowear but it would be in a spyderco now.

Mine are M2 and S7. No wonder we get along even when arguing!

 

[db]

Isn't ATS 34 a HSS? But what do I know, I am an Irish whiskey guy.

 

[STR]

For the record I am not the only one that has reported that 13C26 at 64.5 RC and 13C26 at 60RC were basically neck and neck in every cutting and edge keeping test they were used on. I was not the person that thought the 58 RC blade was a cutting demon either. I simply reported it. I am not the only one that noted the conditions of the edge of each knife after each series of cutting was done. I was not the only tester involved in these knives that were run with this steel. If one wants to twist things to suit his own view of things by comparing it to other steels now, saying how much nonsense is involved with scenarios that do not exist and were not tested one needs to be clear. It is not to be confused with anything said by me regarding a single steel used in identical knives at different hardnesses.

The steel in question is 13C26 used in identical blades on Storms and Storm II knives by Kershaw. These were not cut against Mora steel. Not 440A. Not any Machetes or these other items thrown out there to confuse and direct attention elsewhere. The knives used were folders. Two models. All Storms from Kershaw. The knives tested against were folders the same size, with similar blade shapes, and profiles that could be said to actually compete with each other when I cut with them side by side.

I think anyone that actually reads my posts knows that I come here on these forums to actually contribute substance to the threads and to learn as well as share what I know and experience in the way of knives with no ulterior motive other than to try to help really which I go out of my way to do for folks many times. I think anyone that reads these threads can see that there are now a number of reports of praise from other people that have bought and owned the Kershaw knives in this steel with very little negative to say about them.

When I got a knife to test and made it public that it was given to me I did not have to do that. I did it voluntarily because I have nothing to hide that I was given some $30 and $50 folders to cut with. Someone else here wants to make me out to be a salesman for this company now and if some of you want to believe that go right ahead. For what its worth a good many of the knives I used are now in the hands of soldiers in Iraq who I gave them to. Keep in mind though that if this person found out later that I had some free knives for testing and didn't reveal it that it would be equal reason to distrust me and it would equally be used against me to paint me in some other light.

There is only one person here with this public distrust and completely slanted take that manufacturer owners, and any other salesmen that grace our forums or that makes knives and sell knives are only here to take your money. His generalities here paint these forums as if they cannot be trusted and are only here to sell you knives including the knifemakers, the store owners, and any others that come here to share and contribute to these discussions. If you want these people here and more importantly want to keep them here I suggest you take action to stop this kind of blatant attack on people that do so much in the way of providing free knives in the pass arounds as well as the information they provide here before it changes the face of our forums. If you really want these folks to be here and more importantly to feel welcome here you better sure start showing it or you may just find the next time you post that they no longer view here that much to see your cries for some answers. And you have one person you can thank for that that when and if it occurs. If thats what you all want then fine. If not you have the power to put a stop to it if you want to. Use that little button at the top of the screen with the exclamation point and click it.

To the person making these accusations. I would strongly suggest that you watch your steps from now on. You are now treading on some very dangerous territory and it can be very difficult to build bridges back up once you burn them down. I don't know who you are but it is apparent that you are not the same person that I have seen typing before on that keyboard.

I would also like to add that I do not intentionally mean to misinform anyone of anything I report. I can only report what I see and experience with the knives I have used in this steel. I don't think its necessary to be a scientist to be able to know if a knife cuts or not or works well in the hand, is comfortable, functions as it should and gives good or better than good edge keeping.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... if it reduces retained austenite in AEB-L and 13C26

It does, Landes has measured retained austenite really precisely, one of the many things he studied. I am still trying to nail him down on the specifics, the exact gains for various steels. But I don't pay him for consulting, so it isn't like you can be that demanding on services rendered.

It's a blended scotch with only name-recognition and a slightly sweet flavor ...

Yeah, I like blue though, never had gold.

It's been years since you complained that Gerard "Jerry" Busse drinks Carling Black Label....

Yeah, well some targets are too easy to hit. He also favors like $ 0.50 cigars, but his knives are cool anyway.

-Cliff

 

[hardheart]

For the record I am not the only one that has reported that 13C26 at 64.5 RC and 13C26 at 60RC were basically neck and neck in every cutting and edge keeping test they were used on.

That's pretty much the opposite of what you said before. You said the 64.5 was "a different story altogether." How much of a difference was there?

I'm still getting my salt pots together, I might mess around with the JYD blade if I can get to the proper temps. Wish the cash was on hand for a rockwell tester

 

[STR]

I think I clarified before that I could not state with certainty that the 64.5Rc was what was responsible for the performance of the blade but that it may have been the reprofile done by Thom. I believe it was a later post. For all I know it was the reprofile work that Thom did that brought up some additional praise. I can't be sure in other words.

In other words I'd rather be safe than to say something I may not be absolutely sure of because for all I know I'd like a 60Rc blade just as much if it were done the same way by Thom but in using one that I now have in 64.5Rc that is factory edge profile against other factory edge 60Rc blades I was able to tell that they basically could not be told apart in a blind test. The post you refer to was before I got ahold of this second 64.5Rc blade that had not been reprofiled.

I do love that blade Thom redid for me though and it does perform quite well and has been a very good and very effective slicer with the same super edge keeping as it had in the thicker factory edge only now it takes less effort and bigger bites when I slice with it into hard wood and soft woods. Thom's work on the edge also made cutting hemp rope lots less effort with this knife to where gloves were no longer needed for me to use the knife for 50 cuts in 1/2" hemp and then slice paper then make 50 more cuts and slice paper, and so on.

For all I know its the thickness difference that I like and not so much the hardness factor. I say this because in the knives by Kershaw with 60Rc blades they maintained the edge just as well and cut just as long and in Thom's hands he was not all that impressed so much with the 64.5Rc blade but really preferred the softer one which was around 58Rc.

Again I cannot say for certain that doing the 64.5Rc treatment would be as important as doing the edge work. More work would need to be done to determine that I think. Much has been said about the need for special triple procedures for this higher hardness that I don't think is going to be done, at least not by Kershaw. Also, I can't say what really but some other things have been reported by other testers negative about the steel at this hardness so I would not hold my breath for it to come out unless that can be addressed. I suspect it had to do with some austenite retention that could be problematic I'd have to look.

STR

 

[hardheart]

Well, all the Leeks are going to 13C26, I guess the 64.5 isn't all that big a deal. I just might be able to get the hardness where I want it after some practice anyway.

 

[STR]

I am sure there are people that could retreat the blade if that is what you wanted. You can send them to several places also perhaps. I don't mean to say I know for sure the 64.5RC does not have something to do with the performance level of my particular blade. It seems to be less of a deal to me than the reprofile is all I'm saying and I think that would be easier to achieve than the re heat treat.

STR

 

[db]

Is it possible to get one of the 60 rc blades to the same profile as the 64 rc one and compare?

 

[thombrogan]

I'm still getting my salt pots together

You're a bad, bad man, hardheart.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

... in Thom's hands he was not all that impressed so much with the 64.5Rc blade but really preferred the softer one which was around 58Rc.

He noted this on the forums? Were any of those blades actually hardness tested? You can also make a blade harder and mangle the heat treatment so it is worse. So you would have to be very specific about where the performance was faulty on the harder blade.

In regards to hardness/profile, the reason for a high hardness is specifically to allow a thinner profile. Johnston made this point on rec.knives as early as 1998, and it wasn't new to him then.

Yes if you take a knife with a "worse" steel and a superior geometry it can have a superior cutting lifetime than a knife with a "better" steel and a less efficient geometry. Swaim proposed this <2000 and I did the math to show it quantitatively a long time ago.

A sensible manufacturer however takes a optimal steel and combines with with an optimal geometry.

I am sure there are people that could retreat the blade if that is what you wanted.

It isn't as easy as you might think, especially if the heat treatment isn't optimal. You are looking at a complete reharden to get optimal results, and then you have other issues like the edge getting heavily damaged (you don't grind to sharp and heat treat) by most heat treaters. It is possible, but the cost would be more than knives of this class. There are some guys which will do it for free though. You just have to have a charming personality like mine and know how to make friends and influence people.

-Cliff

 

[hardheart]

You're a bad, bad man, hardheart.

I must be, nobody at Omega wants to talk to me. I should be able to get thermocouples from Nanmac or Watlow pretty easily though, just waiting on quotes.

Now to head to Sears to pick up another belt sander...