30 Degree Edge Angle on Hard Use INFI?

[Last Visible Canary]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6DX83w95Oc
[youtube]L6DX83w95Oc[/youtube]

The above is a video from cliff talking about the minimum edge angle you can do before the knife starts to take on damage from normal use. He keeps his chopping knives between 12 and 15 degree's per side (15 being for winter use on hard frozen woods 0_0). It's not a directly usable example for what your talking about (hard use) but it is a good description of how you can push the limits of a steel and get the most out of it performance wise while keeping major damage and failure in check.

This is what I tend to set my INFI at. Busse kin in general has gotten better with their angles, it's no longer 35-40 degree's per side on the stock edge. My 1311 was 21 per side on the straight edge and 36 per side at the tip, which isnt bad, but they tend to be thick right behind the edge and can benefit from a releif bevel.

Cliff's example on the knife shown in the video is the last one in my image, but with a more acute microbevel (apex bevel in his terms). He is also regrinding everything, not just the edge, but for our purposes we can assume that if your going to do 10-15 degree's per side your going to be regrinding most of the knife away anyways. To me theres no reason to let INFI go above .035" thick behind the edge. It's strong enough that unless your going to be chopping truck springs with it it can handle a lot of shock force at that thickness. Anything below .020" right behind the edge and you start getting into INFI's weak territory. By 'weak' I don't mean bad performance at all - just the area where a much harder steel (d2 at 60rc) would retain it's form a little better. The thinner the edge the more INFI's maleability works against it, since there isn't enough backing metal to keep the rolls, dents and mashes from going higher into the edge/knife. INFI is still strong when thin, but it's less able to stay rigid and aligned than if it had more backing material or copared to other harder steels. In another steel at high hardness (58-60rc) you are more likely to have a chip that eats up a lot of the edge though, where INFI will deform and be more likely to be able to be steeled back.

Push the limits, but be away that the thinnest busse has ever let out of it's shop on a stock production model is around .020" thick behind the edge, and that was on the CABS. I consider that the benchmark for busse where when you go thinner you start to push some of it's abilities. It's where the game of chicken starts with performance vs. edge stability. A worthwhile game, you just have to pay attention to your edge more as your working with it.

 

[BePrepared]

On the happy side, Busse service has once again proven to be absolutely top notch.

Got my email from Lexi this morning. She didn't even call me a dumbass

This is my fault, and i make no excuses for it, but the Busse family is standing behind their product.

Well, it turns out that the damage was not covered by warranty. It's my own fault, since the reprofile i did caused the failure. They are going to repair it via the custom shop at my cost.

I can't blame them a bit. I screwed up pretty big when i put that thin a profile on the tip

 

[joshiecole]

Weird, I've seen them warranty much stupider damage. Interesting. Do you have any pics or whatnot of how much you thinned out the tip?

 

[BePrepared]

I don't have any pics, but Jerry himself made the call. I spoke with him this morning, and he said that his warranty doesn't cover modifications that cause failure

It's a perfectly reasonable decision. I caused the failure, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that I have to pay for the damage i'm responsible for.

As best i can figure, the tip was thinned down to about 20 degrees inclusive because of the way the WE was set up. There's nothing about the TGLB that caused the failure other than the fact that steel... any steel, just can't handle being impacted with a rock with a 20 degree edge

The folks at Busse were incredibly polite, and I don't have anything bad to say about them

 

[joshiecole]

Nice that you got a call from the big man. I also didn't realise it was so thinned down at the edge, or that you'd hit a rock. I have only skimmed through this thread periodically..

 

[BePrepared]

Nice that you got a call from the big man. I also didn't realise it was so thinned down at the edge, or that you'd hit a rock. I have only skimmed through this thread periodically..

lol, i wasn't TRYING to hit a rock. I was stabbing a piece of wood, and went through it. The rock was underneath and MUCH less forgiving than the wood

It's a bit depressing that it's not covered since i thought originally that EVERYTHING was covered except intentional destruction, but I have no one to blame for this but me

No one made me reprofile my blade, so it's reasonable to expect that i'll be the one who has to pay for it

 

[darkaether]

Once it comes back from the shop, it will be a LBTG variant grind. how are you getting it reground?

 

[BePrepared]

i actually don't know that. Jerry just said that he was going to hand it over to Garth and have him do what it took to fix it. Since it's clearly not usable now, I gave the go ahead.

Hopefully it won't lose TOO much length. That's the thing i'm most worried about

 

[jeepin]

i actually don't know that. Jerry just said that he was going to hand it over to Garth and have him do what it took to fix it. Since it's clearly not usable now, I gave the go ahead.

Hopefully it won't lose TOO much length. That's the thing i'm most worried about

So what are they charging you to fix it?. You can pm me if you dont want to post it here.

 

[BePrepared]

i will tell you when i know.

Right now all i know is that they're charging me based on how long it takes to fix it. Hopefully it won't be TOO crazy. I wasn't expecting it to cost me anything when i sent it in, so i wasn't really prepared for a big bill

 

[jeepin]

Thats to bad. Makes me wish there warranty was like Esee and Bark River. You thin out the edge to make it a better slicer and if it breaks, it gets fixed or replaced free

 

[BePrepared]

Thats to bad. Makes me wish there warranty was like Esee and Bark River. You thin out the edge to make it a better slicer and if it breaks, it gets fixed or replaced free

That was the impression i was under, but you can't fault a company for not covering your own stupidity i suppose

 

[Cobalt]

here is what Busse warranty says directly from the man himself and as you can see mods are done at your own risk. If you had broke it hammering it with a hammer and it had no mods, it would have been covered, but when you reground it, it must have been considered a major mod and I guess that is not covered.

Busse Combat is proud to have the toughest warranty in the industry. Busse Combat Grade, Combat Basics, and Combat Customs are guaranteed for life against any and all MAJOR damage.

Common sense dictates that we do not cover “intentional” damage. For example: If you cut a Busse Combat Knife in half with an acetylene torch (on purpose) and then return it for replacement, we are not going to be very excited about giving you another one.

We have been asked recently how modifications of our knives might affect our warranty. Modifications can change the very nature and authorship of a knife. Simply put, we cannot warrant workmanship that we do not perform.

Specifically, if you have modifications done to your knife, outside of our shop, and the modifications adversely affect the integrity and/or performance of your knife, causing it to fail, then it should be noted that “OUR” warranty will not cover “YOUR” modifications. We will, however, continue to cover the parts of your knife that are left unaffected by your modification. For example: If you have mastodon ivory grips put on your Steel Heart II by someone outside of our shop, then our warranty will continue to cover everything except the ivory grips. So be careful. BEFORE you have any modifications done to your knife, make sure that the person doing the modification will guarantee their workmanship.

Busse Combat encourages extreme usage of our blades as they are without question “The Toughest Knives in the World”. We have no rivals. You can use a Busse Combat knife as hard as you like and our warranty has you covered. If you have any specific warranty questions please feel free to email me at busse@bright.net .

Yours in Nuclear Toughness,
Jerry Busse

HERE is how Busse warranty covers ridiculous abuse:

LET’S TALK ABOUT CLIFF STAMP:

There has been much discussion lately about knife testing. With these discussions come unsupported shots at some of those who do extreme testing. Of course, you can’t bring up the subject of “Extreme Testing” on these forums without bringing up the name of Cliff Stamp. Along with the mention of Cliff’s testing come the detractors to his methodology. The detractors often, for whatever reason, resort to taking personal shots at Mr. Stamp. I must admit that I find myself confused by the animosity that many have shown towards this individual. Perhaps I have missed something, but I have yet to see Cliff return fire on anyone at a personal level.

Before this discussion goes any further let me set the record straight on some accusations that have been leveled recently on the forums and in private emails. First of all, Cliff Stamp does not work for Busse Combat. . . he is in no way affiliated with Busse Combat. . . . and more importantly he really does exist and lives in Newfoundland thus proving that “I” am not “him”. . . He does not get paid or receive a “kickback” when he puts us at the top of the heap of blades that he has tested. . . . If you think that this clarification sounds unnecessary then you are only beginning to see the level of stupidity that some of these discussions can reach.

Cliff Stamp tests many knives to the point of total destruction. He has broken one of our knives (a Basic #7) during his testing. Cliff, breaks knives, it’s what he does. I don’t understand why, when he breaks someone’s favorite brand or make of knife, there is such anger. He broke ours while pounding the sand out of it with the hammer end of a hatchet. It had endured this level of abuse for more than 2 years. Was I excited about it? No. Did I think it was unfair? Who cares? Remember, that Cliff, breaks knives, it’s what he does. When a lion trainer is attacked by a lion, why are people shocked? It’s what lions do. Cliff, breaks knives, it’s what he does. It is also important to note that not ONE forum member on the Busse Combat Forum attacked Cliff for his methodology when he broke the Basic # 7. I admire that. It says a lot about our customers.

Cliff presents information. How those who choose to read it assimilate that information, is up to the individuals who are doing the reading. I do not see where there is room for personal attacks. You can argue methodology but personal attacks simply show fear.

LET’S TALK ABOUT WARRANTIES:

Frankly, makers and manufacturers who maintain the power of final judgment when it comes to warranty decisions and yet continue to claim that they offer a “Lifetime Warranty” confuse me. Where is the anger that should be directed towards these manufacturers and individuals? How can you rely upon a warranty that relies upon the judgment of the person who stands to be put at a financial loss if it is honored? This quite obviously sets the stage for bias from the maker or manufacturer. They reserve the right to say, “Well, you shouldn’t have done that with your knife and therefore you have voided your lifetime warranty.” Why should anyone believe that their knife will stand up to hard use when their warranty will not?

It’s all about TRUST. How can I, as a knifemaker, on one hand say that my knives are designed for the most extreme situations that may present themselves to our customers and then on the other hand cry foul when someone destroys one during use? I try not to judge whether or not a customer’s use of one of our blades is “too abusive”. Who am I to judge? That is why our guarantee has the word “intentional” in it. We allow the customer to make the decision as to whether or not he meant to damage his Busse knife. That’s called TRUST, and that’s what our customers put in us when they buy a Busse knife. We’re not about to betray that trust by allowing “our” judgment to decide whether or not “their” knife should be covered by “our” warranty. . . Lifetime warranties with “Abuse Clauses” are limp-wristed and do nothing more than demonstrate the amount of faith, or lack of faith, that a maker or manufacturer has in their product.

LET’S TALK ABOUT INFI:

How does INFI compare to other commonly used cutlery steels? It quite simply SPANKS them. If it didn’t, and there was a steel that could outperform it on all levels then we would be using it instead. We have been making knives for twenty years. We have used every steel imaginable. None of them compare with INFI. . . None of them. I am commonly dismayed by those who try to make claims of equivalence or comparability to INFI with steel like ATS-34, A-2, and 1095. INFI has set a publicly demonstrated standard that NO ONE has been able to near. We expect there to be unsupported claims of comparability with INFI from customers and fans of other manufacturers. They have no stake in the game and are no different than those who stand on the side-lines and push other people into fights. However, until another manufacturer comes along and publicly duplicates our series of tests with one of their knives, we will continue to be the performance standard by which all production knives will be measured.

Understand that we are not claiming to have a design that will satisfy everyone’s needs or tastes. We never have and never will. However, when it comes down to the pure, unadulterated performance of the steel involved . . . Busse Combat and INFI continue to stand alone.

Jerry Busse

 

[BePrepared]

Pretty sure this is the part that got me

Specifically, if you have modifications done to your knife, outside of our shop, and the modifications adversely affect the integrity and/or performance of your knife, causing it to fail, then it should be noted that “OUR” warranty will not cover “YOUR” modifications. We will, however, continue to cover the parts of your knife that are left unaffected by your modification. For example: If you have mastodon ivory grips put on your Steel Heart II by someone outside of our shop, then our warranty will continue to cover everything except the ivory grips. So be careful. BEFORE you have any modifications done to your knife, make sure that the person doing the modification will guarantee their workmanship.

 

[chiral.grolim]

You said it lost ~1/4", maybe a little more? I wonder how thick it was at the break... It broke within the sharpened area? If your sharpening-job reprofiled the apex so low, it's possible that they could simply blend the tip-angle back into the blade removing as little metal as possible to get it to 30 dps there. I'm not sure I understand at what point sharpening qualifies as '"YOUR" modifications' and voids the warranty 0_o. Then again, if the break occurred within the sharpened bevel, that might qualify as "normal wear". INFI's material properties are supposed to be quite impressive, but I am not sure how one would determine if '"YOUR" modifications' were insufficient to compromise the expected performance of the steel. How hard did you hit that rock? Why didn't the tip bend before breaking? Or am I misunderstanding the damage?

 

[richstag]

There is one thing that I believe should come from this thread. What does Busse consider modification?

Let me start by saying, I do not expect my knives to be covered after I modify them on my grinder and I take the warranty into my own hands. I always have and always will. I never once asked Jerry to fix my mistakes free of charge. I actually learned to fix them myself.

Now with that said, what angle would Busse say would all the sudden become a modification of the edge? I don't blame Jerry a bit for drawing lines. I think he should actually. When I was more active here I remember seeing Jerry replace knives I thought he was crazy to do it for. I never took advantage of the company myself though.

So what I am getting at is should folks be afraid to buy a busse and take the factory edge down to 15 per side on and edgepro or stone because it will become a modification? Wow, that would put me off to the company if so. I do not believe that is the case here though. I believe what was done to this knife may have greatly exceeded what most would reprofile an edge to. If Busse now means you have to keep the factory edge, well thats no knife at all IMHO, thats closer to owning a paperweight in some cases.

Again, with all of this said, every time I have seen Jerry make a call that it was 'modification error' it was a pretty insanely thinned out edge.

I hope this little hiccup does not turn into a mess. I would just be happy that Jerry and Garth will fix my mistakes. I hope this works out for both sides. Jerry should not receive grief because he has always been overly generous with his warranty IMHO. Nor should a customer have to be afraid to sharpen their knife by hand without power tools within reasonable limits.

Kevin

 

[BePrepared]

i hit the rock pretty hard. I was stabbing the crap out of the board when it went through. It broke clean off, so i don't know why it didn't bend.

I am going to just take Jerry's word for this one. He's a stand up guy, and i think that he'd have absolutely no trouble fixing it on his dime if he wasn't absolutely satisfied that my "modification" was solely responsible.

 

[resinguy]

This is an interesting development. It may the first time we have heard of Jerry declining to cover damage. But I agree with you; you can't blame him, and he is not being unreasonable. Over the last few years there has been an increased number of posts around modding or reprofiling knives, along with a general belief that it's all good, and Busse will cover it. I, and others, have tried to remind folk that if you mod it, then you should consider that you own your own warranty, and need to rely on the strength of INFI and some common sense, NOT the unbounded generosity of Jerry Busse.

 

[jeepin]

This is an interesting development. It may the first time we have heard of Jerry declining to cover damage. But I agree with you; you can't blame him, and he is not being unreasonable. Over the last few years there has been an increased number of posts around modding or reprofiling knives, along with a general belief that it's all good, and Busse will cover it. I, and others, have tried to remind folk that if you mod it, then you should consider that you own your own warranty, and need to rely on the strength of INFI and some common sense, NOT the unbounded generosity of Jerry Busse.

I have been thinking about the Unintentional Warranty which covers everything except if you deliberately tried to break the knife. Im pretty sure he reprofiled it so it would be a better slicer. He didnt think it would damage the blade. Therefore wouldnt that be called unintentional damage

 

[Sethrotull]

All I will say is; I believe Jerry will do what he feels is right, and you can include Dan in that as well. The Bussekin warranty is by far the best in my book.