440c comparisons (where does it stand?)

[strategy9]

These threads always seem to have a common theme.

The last ten years missing.

I wasn't attempting to include the past decade advances in super steels in as mich as simply helping a newer guy with zero to very limited knowledge on steel alloys maybe understand the basics better... Yes the super steels are superior in many ways, many come with certain drawbacks and challenges of their own, but more importantly it is important to note that in the shadow of newer (more expensive) fancier and complex alloys, the basic steels still make quality knives, the kind of knives that served our daddies and grand daddies well... Even the carbon (non stainless) steels that served our great grand daddies and their grand daddies well in blades still make for decent blade with care and proper maintenance

Yes, there is a ton of info left out; carbidic matrixing, vacuums, partical metallurgy vs billets, boehler vs carpenter vs crucible processes, etc... And just like a chocolate cake from the local grocery store vs a chocolate cake from the Italian bakery downtown vs the chocolate cake from the German market 2 towns over are all different, it helps to understand the basic milk and eggs side of things to start before expanding into a dash of salt, an extra pinch of baking soda, some vanilla and cinnamon etc...

I remember when I was beginning to look into steels, researching, google ninja'ing and I remember how many technical papers I came across that read like they were in a different language; also how many references were made like "the Japanese or Chinese equivalent of...." Without explanation of what they were orvwhy they were equivalents. Years later and years now in the steel business, I now can read a technical sheet with much more understanding, but I wanted to make generic reference for someone who might be googling steels for their first time, just venturing in, with a way they could grasp the very basic mechanics.

 

[strategy9]

Rank them based on what property? Saying one steel is better than another, without saying better for what property or application, is meaningless.

Well being this is blade forums, I guess my ranking would be based on basic all around blade function; based on their metallurgic make up, which ones would in essence make a better all around blade; strength, toughness, stainlessness, edge holding, cutting, carbidic assistance in cutting, etc... Others may feel free to disagree, yourself included, this is just "my" ranking, (and I do actually have hands on practical experience with every alloy listed from multiple manufacturers, except aus10). My take on it, not yours or anybody else's, take it or leave it for what it's worth.

Assuming again all mixes and heat treats were performed properly and to top standards, the similarities between the alloys being given a push comparatively, it's really going to boil down to personal preference, but the groupings are very similar to one another, and given slight (theoretical and actual metallurgic) improvements over the group before it.

Now of course I would venture to trust a 420hc blade by Buck is going to be a 100x higher quality then an aus10 blade whipped up by "Joe" in his garage homemade foundry, heat treated in his kitchen, but again, a quality 440c done by a reputable source with experience working with the steel and equipment to properly treat it, I would also venture to say is a better "all around" (blade) steel then a 420hc one, even with Buck's 2nd to none HT, based on the alloy and properties of the alloying elements, even the best 420hc will be limited by science (given it's low carbon and chromium content and snall vanadium boost) compared to the best 440c, aus10, or 9cr18mov. When done correctly they just have more potential (upside) based on the science behind their alloyed structures; higher carbon and carbide thresholds, etc tend to make for better blade edges and retention.

Are the differences going to be night and day? Absolutely not!
all things done properly, the differences will be so subtle that most average knife owners won't be able to tell the difference from one to another, just that (again) all do in fact make a reasonably solid performing basic stainless knife steel when done right... But the subtle differences will be present none the less, given the procedures to make and process the steel were in fact done right.

And don't take it the wrong way, I own a bunch of 420hc Buck knives too, and a handful of Case TruSharp 420hc, I think it's a fine steel, and personally i'm not a huge fan of aus8, but prefer 8cr whereas though some people love the stuff and swear by it, incl. one of my brothers, but i that's where the personal preferences come into play. I don't disregard aus8 completely, it is a free be blade steel too, I just prefer another in the same price range; 8cr, 9cr, or 440c are better for, and i even personally prefer another buck over an aus8 cold steel, but again, its not to disregard one over the other, it's prefetences, but a spade is a spade at the end of the day, and science says you can only go as far as your ingredients will allow.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

The way I look at it is 440 A, B & C steels are the grandaddies of most of the "Super" Stainless steels around today in the cutlery field..

Heat treating is everything when it comes to steel because if it isn't HTed properly really doesn't matter what blade steel your knife is made out of.

I use 440C for some of my knives today. Great for hunters to culinary knives!

 

[LX_Emergency]

Every steel is a compromise.

You could see it as having to divide character points in a videogame.

You get 20 points and you have to divide them across the following characteristics:

Edge retention
Toughness
grain structure
Corrosion resistance
ease of heat treat
price of production

440C is simply one of the steels that has the most equal most well balanced spread among those. It's an old steel...but it's been around for a long time for a good reason. It's not trendy, but as indicated by tests it works and works well. I believe Chuck from Alpha Knife supply recently did some testing on well heat treated 440C that really impressed me when it comes to it's score against other steels like CPM154.

Just because it's so old and easily available doesn't mean it's a bad or "cheap" steel. Well heat treated, well ground 440C will hold it's own against any of the medium range steels like VG-10, ATS-35, RWL-34, CPM154, AUS8a etc and will do so price effectively.

Now I don't know Jay Fischer. The man comes across as a bit of a know-it-all on the internet from what I could tell. But he IS right in that 440C is an excellent choice for almost any knife. Is it the GREATEST for any knife? Well that depends on the application. CPM3V will do better in a chopper, ZDP-198 will do better in a polished push cut test.

But there are very few steels which shine as well on ALL fronts as clean cast, well ground, well heat treated 440C (or AUS-10 or 9CR18Mov).

 

[vilePossum]

honestly for me the original post and some parts of the thread were simply an interesting read. thank you.
i like knives, i own several but i wouldn't call myself a collector. and unless i take a smithing course someday i will likely never forge a knife myself. still i found it interesting because i like to see what other people think about this topic and it might just improve my knowledge about knife steels a bit. maybe people should just relax a little...

 

[Ankerson]

Nothing wrong with 440C, it's as good now as it always was and when heat treated by a maker who really knows what they are doing and has the equipment to do it right it can be very good.

There are other options though, ones that I would personally choose over 440C given the choice like CPM 154 that I believe is one of the better all around well balanced steels especially when done by one of the better makers.

But then that's my opinion and the great thing is that we have a lot of choices and excellent ones at that.

 

[marcinek]

maybe people should just relax a little...

...and stop pretending that their opinion on what steel is "better" than another steel is anything other than just that...an opinion. Claiming one has created a guide for the layman to what knife steel is "better" then another only feeds the misunderstanding that one steel can be "better" than another.

Its a dis-service to the folks new to the knife world, in my opinion.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

honestly for me the original post and some parts of the thread were simply an interesting read. thank you.
i like knives, i own several but i wouldn't call myself a collector. and unless i take a smithing course someday i will likely never forge a knife myself. still i found it interesting because i like to see what other people think about this topic and it might just improve my knowledge about knife steels a bit. maybe people should just relax a little...

Just so you understand, the vast majority of knives of both stainless & high carbon steels are made by stock removal. Its forged as it comes in sheet from the mill and you grind or drill away everything you don't want. Hence, Stock removal. Also the majority of forged knives are then ground.

People can get testy when discussing different steels.

 

[craytab]

People can get testy when discussing different steels.

Or when the same folks keep preaching about how others should feel about different steels :thumbup:

 

[Fire_Brand]

According to Jay, there are not that many carbon steels that qualify as true tool steels, that is, steels with added components designed for industrial purposes... He list true "tool steels", and the list is short... 440C is a true industrial tool steel.

Jay Fisher: "It's important to remember that O1 is a true tool steel. Tool steels are a special classification of steels, and they are designed specifically to make tools to cut, press, form and work other materials, including metal, woods, and plastics. The previous two listed alloy types were not specifically designed to be tools, and you can see that from the applications I listed that there are much more economical applications for these steels. I did not make these up, they are detailed specifically in the Machinery's Handbook®, the standard reference for machinists and engineers."

It is likely that some stainless steels make better blades than 440C, the question I have is: Where are the tests done on identical blades, made by the same maker to the same edge bevel and grit? The answer is, there are none...

You may want to consider the following as well:

Jay Fisher: "By the way, there is NO certified, regulated, sanctioned, or official testing authority of ANY knife performance, process, or construction, anywhere on this earth!"

"There is a reason that one knife blade analysis and testing site claims: "Grade 440C is capable of attaining, after heat treatment, the highest strength, hardness and wear resistance of all the stainless alloys."

If there really was something fundamentally better than the four steels he uses most commonly (out of about just ten he uses in total): 0-1, D-2, 440C and ATS 34, I'm sure he would be all over them...

Gaston

I don't know why you seem to take anything Jay says as gospel... I personally work in the tool and die industry and we use powder steels for extremely high wear and high stress applications. For example we use CPM 10V for high stress punches when working with thick blanks or dual phase steel, we try to do this sparingly because it is very expensive but we use it and others specifically for the qualities that make them a superior tool steel. Granted we do use O-1, A-2, and D-2 regularly (as well as many others) but these are for the more standard procedures because they are far less expensive. We are purely concerned with the most economical choice and thus will always choose exactly what is needed for an application and nothing more.

While we don't use all of the different powder steels that are out there in our industry there is no way you can believe the knife industry is what supports the creation of these new steels. Pretty much ALL new steels developed are developed with the intention of using them in an industrial application, or better put as a tool steel.

 

[Lycosa]

Informative post. ^ Thanks.
rolf

 

[marcinek]

Well being this is blade forums, I guess my ranking would be based on basic all around blade function; based on their metallurgic make up, which ones would in essence make a better all around blade; strength, toughness, stainlessness, edge holding, cutting, carbidic assistance in cutting, etc... Others may feel free to disagree, yourself included, this is just "my" ranking, (and I do actually have hands on practical experience with every alloy listed from multiple manufacturers, except aus10). My take on it, not yours or anybody else's, take it or leave it for what it's worth.

Yes. Each of our opinions on what steels we prefer are worth what they are worth...as all opinions are.

But the rest of us aren't trying to pass off our opinions as some

... "laymen term" and understandable explanation of how some of your more basic steels compare to one another, as well as where 440c actually sits amongst them.

That's the problem here. I happen to really like AUS-8. Based on some of the characteristics you listed above, and those characteristics are not "weighted" evenly.

But I certainly don't have the hubris to tell anybody, let alone a layman, that my subjective opinion makes it "better" than any other steel.

 

[Sunyata]

I wasn't attempting to include the past decade advances in super steels in as mich as simply helping a newer guy with zero to very limited knowledge on steel alloys maybe understand the basics better... Yes the super steels are superior in many ways, many come with certain drawbacks and challenges of their own, but more importantly it is important to note that in the shadow of newer (more expensive) fancier and complex alloys, the basic steels still make quality knives, the kind of knives that served our daddies and grand daddies well... Even the carbon (non stainless) steels that served our great grand daddies and their grand daddies well in blades still make for decent blade with care and proper maintenance

Yes, there is a ton of info left out; carbidic matrixing, vacuums, partical metallurgy vs billets, boehler vs carpenter vs crucible processes, etc... And just like a chocolate cake from the local grocery store vs a chocolate cake from the Italian bakery downtown vs the chocolate cake from the German market 2 towns over are all different, it helps to understand the basic milk and eggs side of things to start before expanding into a dash of salt, an extra pinch of baking soda, some vanilla and cinnamon etc...

I remember when I was beginning to look into steels, researching, google ninja'ing and I remember how many technical papers I came across that read like they were in a different language; also how many references were made like "the Japanese or Chinese equivalent of...." Without explanation of what they were orvwhy they were equivalents. Years later and years now in the steel business, I now can read a technical sheet with much more understanding, but I wanted to make generic reference for someone who might be googling steels for their first time, just venturing in, with a way they could grasp the very basic mechanics.

But it comes off as more of an opinion piece. 440C is better than all these select old midgrade steels because.......

Then you start to wonder why you chose the steels you did, and left out a lot of common steels used by big manufacturers and fixated on only a couple manufacturers .

Then you seemed to peak at S30v the big steel of 10 years ago. Both are good steels but again different steels are developed for different purposes. If I was doing something wet I'd used the S110v bladed knife in my pocket over the M4 blade in my other pocket.


And things that work for our granddaddies and daddies is a silly argument, they didn't have the options we do. I wouldn't go back to paper filing my taxes because my dad did, I wouldn't drive around in a car with no seat belts because my grandfather did. The advancement of technology is a good thing.

 

[tidefan]

99% of knife users couldn't tell the difference between 440C and any of the new super steels. I've used almost all of the newest steels and If I were making myself a knife it would be 440C. If heat treated properly 440C is a super steel. It is more stain resistant than most newer steels and holds an edge extremely well. 440C gets a bad rap due to all the "440" series of steels used in cheap knives. 440C is not in that particular family. 440C was the first "super steel" way back and it's just as good now as it was then....

 

[stabman]

99% of knife users couldn't tell the difference between 440C and any of the new super steels. I've used almost all of the newest steels and If I were making myself a knife it would be 440C. If heat treated properly 440C is a super steel. It is more stain resistant than most newer steels and holds an edge extremely well. 440C gets a bad rap due to all the "440" series of steels used in cheap knives. 440C is not in that particular family. 440C was the first "super steel" way back and it's just as good now as it was then....

It's still fine...
But I find that other steels tend to do what I want a bit better. I have a knife in 440C that's pretty good; it's my dedicated box opening knife.
It needs shaprpening more frequently than some of my other blades that use steels designed for better edge retention.

 

[Sunyata]

99% of knife users couldn't tell the difference between 440C and any of the new super steels. I've used almost all of the newest steels and If I were making myself a knife it would be 440C. If heat treated properly 440C is a super steel. It is more stain resistant than most newer steels and holds an edge extremely well. 440C gets a bad rap due to all the "440" series of steels used in cheap knives. 440C is not in that particular family. 440C was the first "super steel" way back and it's just as good now as it was then....

Without data it's all just an opinion. I just had two knives made. One in D2 and one in Elmax. Both great steels. The knives while looking the same have different purposes. I chose two steels I like neither is the best as there is no all over best.

Which newer steels? If you do as the OP and select a group to match your theory (M2,M4, K390, 3v, etc )then yes it is. But if you select steels made to be stainless (s35vn, s60v,s90v,s110v,s125v, elmax, cts 204p, m390, etc) then maybe not.



Likewise some steels are designed to hold an edge longer and will keep their edges longer than 440C. My two carry knives for the day were selected for edge holding as they handle a lot of everyday cutting so I dont want to have to touch them up. One is less stain resistant than 440C but it's edge retention especially with how thin it is and how I will reprofile the blade is very good. I love M4 for that quality.

 

[Inazone]

The improvements made in steel (and knives in general) don't make those of yesteryear worse, but do (eventually) change the value proposition when manufacturers stop using an older steel in favor of something newer and (arguably) better. For instance, both Cold Steel recently changed what steel is uses in some knives, and sure, some folks are going to debate if the change is really an upgrade, especially if the price increases. If, for instance, someone really liked Cold Steel's AUS8, they may not feel compelled to buy the same knife for more money to "upgrade" to CTS-XHP. That doesn't mean XHP doesn't contribute some improvements that may make a better knife for some uses/users, but it doesn't make AUS8 bad. Buck offers a lot of its knives in multiple steels, but just because a particular knife is offered in S30V doesn't make a "lower" model in that product line inadequate simply because it uses 420HC. For someone who gets good results with 420HC, paying more for S30V isn't a good value.

If the only thing that mattered was metallurgy, there would be a lot fewer knives on the market. For a lot of manufacturers, adopting a superior steel might mean pricing themselves right out of their established target market, thus the continued abundance of AUS8, 8Cr13MoV and similar steels in the "budget" range of knives.

 

[marcinek]

If, for instance, someone really liked Cold Steel's AUS8, they may not feel compelled to buy the same knife for more money to "upgrade" to CTS-XHP. That doesn't mean XHP doesn't contribute some improvements that may make a better knife for some uses/users, but it doesn't make AUS8 bad.

Wait. We have been told in this thread that 440C is better than AUS-8, and CTS-XHP is better than 440C.

CTS-XHP appears to be an improved 440c so I can't wait to try it, because I do appreciate the original quite a bit.

So it is clear that the CTS-XHP makes a better knife than AUS-8 for all uses/users!

 

[tidefan]

My data comes from 15 years of knife making both from stock removal and forging. I also worked for a year with Neil Blackwood and we both agree, on our personal knives 440C gets the vote. Several custom makers use 440C almost exclusively due to it's stain resistance, toughness, and edge holding properties. Check out Entrek knives. Very impressive knives with his 440C done right.

 

[Inazone]

Wait. We have been told in this thread that 440C is better than AUS-8, and CTS-XHP is better than 440C.

Yes, thereby making AUS8 knives that were previously quite acceptable to now be crap. As soon as the XHP versions came out, the AUS8 blades dulled and rusted literally overnight. My Recon 1 ceased to be able to cut warm butter.