440c comparisons (where does it stand?)

[marcinek]

Yes, thereby making AUS8 knives that were previously quite acceptable to now be crap. As soon as the XHP versions came out, the AUS8 blades dulled and rusted literally overnight. My Recon 1 ceased to be able to cut warm butter.

LOLing....:thumbup:

 

[EChoil]

Yes, thereby making AUS8 knives that were previously quite acceptable to now be crap. As soon as the XHP versions came out, the AUS8 blades dulled and rusted literally overnight. My Recon 1 ceased to be able to cut warm butter.

Sidenote, When I bought my CS Ti-Lite I chose the AUS8 over the XHP. Price was no object---both under $100. You can only get the XHP in beadblast.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Yes, thereby making AUS8 knives that were previously quite acceptable to now be crap. As soon as the XHP versions came out, the AUS8 blades dulled and rusted literally overnight. My Recon 1 ceased to be able to cut warm butter.

I hate when that happens!:grumpy: LOL!
So many good steels are rendered useless as soon as an improved version coms out.

 

[utahsam]

Bookmarking this thread for my doctoral dissertation on blade steels and my new cure for insomnia.

 

[Sunyata]

I hate when that happens!:grumpy: LOL!
So many good steels are rendered useless as soon as an improved version coms out.

Knives have become phones

 

[strategy9]

Wait. We have been told in this thread that 440C is better than AUS-8, and CTS-XHP is better than 440C.




So it is clear that the CTS-XHP makes a better knife than AUS-8 for all uses/users!

You have very poor reading comprehension skills...

I did say specifically that ALL the afore mentioned steels make a great knife steel, aus8 included, but metallurgically it does compare more to a modified 440a then 440c, metallurgically 440c is just s modified 440a... Aus8 does have less carbon and chromium then 440c, but it does contain a small amount of harder vanadium carbides as well as nickle, that is fact. I also clearly stated that I would take a 420hc blade from a quality manufacturer over a 440c blade from a questionable one, and I clearly stated any differences from one steel to the next, provided they were manufactured properly, would be so subtle that most people couldn't tell the difference, again reiterating that they ALL make a fine steel for a knife blade. The ranking wasn't anything set in stone, just a take based on metallurgic properties of the given alloys which ones "in theory" would perform better all around if all were of equal manufacturing quality. Yes, my own personal preference is 440c based on my own personal experience. I have a brother who swears by aus 8... I also prefer 8cr14mov to aus8, its not to say you or anybody else has to agree with me, but the comparison shows the "science" that all these basic steels in comparison are very similar more so then that one is far greater then another (which I never stated)..

And if its "clear" that cts-xhp makes a better knife then aus8 from anything that I wrote, that again it shows your severe lack of comprehension skills, since again, I clearly stated I had never tried cts-xhp, and was eager to try it, because metallurgically "it appears" to be an improved version of 440c. And on paper it does.
Is it? Idk, hence why I can't wait to try it.. Who knows, maybe I hate the stuff? Maybe I buy a cold steel later this month and by July 4th i m doing a gaw because I hate it that much?

You try to disregard my attempt to help clarify alloying differences and similarities between current common "basic" steels for any newb who may be interested or curious, but you offer zero helpful or constructive information of your own, but rather just attempt to cause disruption... The only facts I claimed as facts were the compositions of each metal as per the manufacturer data sheets... Are you gonna argue that too? Maybe 440c really doesn't have a higher carbon content, maybe there really isn't any vanadium added to 420hc? Maybe the nickle content in aus8 is a conspiracy and its really not in there? I ranked them based more on similarity between compositions then anything else, not necessarily which is "better" as again for the umpteenth time (since you seem to miss that part of my opinion despite it repeatedly stated) they ALL make a quality blade. Any opinion or personal preference I made was pretty clear as to be just that.

And fwiw, your opinions are just as worthless or worthwhile as mine or anybody elses, so keep that in mind whenever try and disregard someone's opinions with opinions of your own. on that note, Keep smiling champ. It's still a beautiful day in my neighborhood

 

[strategy9]

But it comes off as more of an opinion piece. 440C is better than all these select old midgrade steels because.......

Then you start to wonder why you chose the steels you did, and left out a lot of common steels used by big manufacturers and fixated on only a couple manufacturers .

Then you seemed to peak at S30v the big steel of 10 years ago. Both are good steels but again different steels are developed for different purposes. If I was doing something wet I'd used the S110v bladed knife in my pocket over the M4 blade in my other pocket.


And things that work for our granddaddies and daddies is a silly argument, they didn't have the options we do. I wouldn't go back to paper filing my taxes because my dad did, I wouldn't drive around in a car with no seat belts because my grandfather did. The advancement of technology is a good thing.

I tried to include only the most common basic steels... Showing metallurgic similarties and differences, and while yes there was some opinion and bias on my part, I did say they all make a solid knife blade and users will prefer what they prefer. They are not all that different from one another, and more then just trying to say "440c is the best", I wanted to show that these basic cheaper steels, aren't all that bad, any of them, including 440c which from a metallurgic standpoint, still matches up quite well alongside the cr-mov's and aus series steels.

I included cts-xhp and s60v simply because they were in fact originally dubbed 440 varients as 440xh and 440v respectively, and peaked with s30v because it is an older "supersteel" and as such a very common one these days, but it begins to show the complexity involved in the "supersteel" structures with more alloys like tungsten, higher vanadium, etc, getting thrown into the mix. I could've kept going into more super steels, but again, my goal was more to show how the basic level steels matchup composition wise.

As per the "grandaddy" thing, I feel it does carry validity. Sure if you can afford a new car, then go ahead and have at it, but if you can't, that doesn't mean you shouldn't consider an older model in your price range. Likewise, if your computer crashed and you can't afford a new one, it is very valuable to know how to still paper file your taxes. If you can afford a newer super steel blade, then great. (They're never cheap). Technological advances have come a long ways and most of the super steels are in fact "super" in many ways.. But if you can't, this was to show that the basic steels used in most of your cheaper sub-$50 production knives, they still do make for quite adequate and functional blade steels if done by a reputable source. People shouldn't shy away from a 12c27, 440, or cr-mov made knife just because it's not the newest $200 "xyz6000"... They'll all still work just fine.

 

[Captain O]

This is the very reason I adore the $25.00 Colonial "Quick Flick" Model 7001 knife I purchased directly from Colonial in Warwick RI. It has:

a) 440C steel that's been heat treated to a Rockwell Hardness of between 58-60 and,

b) the parts were manufactured in the United States of America (but the knife was assembled in China, to save on labor costs.)

The end result is an excellent assisted opening knife of USA manufacture at an affordable price.

What's not to like?

Captain O

 

[strategy9]

Since marcinek likes to selectively pick and choose only what parts he wants to read and try and start worthless controversy without taking the entirety of a given statement, let me reiterate what he/she apparently didn't read or simply wasn't capable of comprehending from page one. Just in case anyone else miss interpreted what I intended to say here;

At the end of the day, considering what Buck (and Case Tru-Sharp) has done and continues do with 420hc, a lower carbon, lower chromium, no molybednum version of 440a with 0.3% vanadium added to give it a little extra umph in strong carbides, all in all they are ALL quality basic stainless steels in their own right when mixed, handled, and heat treated properly and with care to detail.
If I had to rank them,

420hc - 12c27 *push
440a - 7cr17mov *push
14c28n - Aus8 - 8cr14mov *push
440c - aus10 - 9cr18mov *push
*(from a metallurgical point of view, those groupings are the most similar in composition, but it's not to say necessarily one steel is better then the other or that one group is better then the other, but rather "IF I"; personal preference will ultimately dictate who likes what more, and anyone is free to prefer one over another as I too prefer certain ones over other ones. )

But again, ALL make a quality affordable blade steel when properly made by a company who knows how to handle a certain steel;
I think Cold Steel and their aus8, Kershaw and Sandvik 14c28n, Buck and Case both with 420hc, Boker Magnum and Boker(+) with 440a vs 440c, SOG, CRKT, Taylor with their 7-8-9cr-MoV's
familiarity with one over another can go a long way...

I thought that was pretty clear when I originally wrote it, but maybe it was worth repeating.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Experience tells us that not all opinions are of equal value. The trick is to figure out whose opinion deserves greater weight.

 

[marcinek]

I thought that was pretty clear when I originally wrote it, but maybe it was worth repeating.

You intended to tell laymen how steels compare to one another.

Anyone with in depth insight want to add or chime in, it is strongly encouraged, but i wanted to put together a somewhat short, (it's long, but for the amount of information packed in, it's actually pretty short), somewhat "laymen term" and understandable explanation of how some of your more basic steels compare to one another, as well as where 440c actually sits amongst them.

I intended to point out to laymen that you cannot compare steels and rank them as you wanted to do. As I said earlier, feeding the myth that one steel is better than another is a dis-service.

You, of course, are free to spread the myth as much as you would like.

 

[Thomas Linton]

With apologies to Ken Warner.

There is no best steel. There are only best steels for: for certain geometries, for certain hardness, for certain applications.

 

[marcinek]

With apologies to Ken Warner.

There is no best steel. There are only best steels for: for certain geometries, for certain hardness, for certain applications.

But if there is no "best" steel, there is no "better" steel! And if there is no "better" steel, how can one rank them?!?

At the end of the day, considering what Buck (and Case Tru-Sharp) has done and continues do with 420hc, a lower carbon, lower chromium, no molybednum version of 440a with 0.3% vanadium added to give it a little extra umph in strong carbides, all in all they are ALL quality basic stainless steels in their own right when mixed, handled, and heat treated properly and with care to detail.
If i had to rank them,

Anyone with in depth insight want to add or chime in, it is strongly encouraged, but i wanted to put together a somewhat short, (it's long, but for the amount of information packed in, it's actually pretty short), somewhat "laymen term" and understandable explanation of how some of your more basic steels compare to one another, as well as where 440c actually sits amongst them.

 

[strategy9]

Still not quite sure where you keep getting that I'm saying that any of the basic steels are hands down better or worse then one another, but rather comparing their metallurgic similarities and differences between each, and pointing out in fact that while yes i have my preferences, they are all still quite serviceable in their own rite? How does that equate to you assuming me making matter of fact claims that one is hands down "better" is beyond me, but continue to take what you want out of context, however it makes you happy.

 

[brownshoe]

You intended to tell laymen how steels compare to one another.



I intended to point out to laymen that you cannot compare steels and rank them as you wanted to do. As I said earlier, feeding the myth that one steel is better than another is a dis-service.

You, of course, are free to spread the myth as much as you would like.

It is not a myth that one steel is better than another. A product is always a combination of intended use, materials, manufacturing, and sales that has to be a compromise. A knife, designed for a type of user or specific application, made by a company with specific capabilities and to be sold with a defined marketing strategy, at a specific price...there is probably a "best" steel.

Think of it this way. For Buck, 420HC is the best steel for a $30 hunting knife. They also use it on some of their high end fancy knifes. However, many customers have trouble paying $400 for a hunting knife (could be the same basic blade shape) that has 420HC. In this case the "best steel" may not be 420HC and it will have nothing to do with the performance of the knife at the intended task.

 

[Thomas Linton]

It is not a myth that one steel is better than another. A product is always a combination of intended use, materials, manufacturing, and sales that has to be a compromise. A knife, designed for a type of user or specific application, made by a company with specific capabilities and to be sold with a defined marketing strategy, at a specific price...there is probably a "best" steel.

Think of it this way. For Buck, 420HC is the best steel for a $30 hunting knife. They also use it on some of their high end fancy knifes. However, many customers have trouble paying $400 for a hunting knife (could be the same basic blade shape) that has 420HC. In this case the "best steel" may not be 420HC and it will have nothing to do with the performance of the knife at the intended task.

With further apologies to Ken Warner.

There is no best steel. There are only best steels for: for certain geometries, for certain hardness, for certain applications, or for certain price points.

 

[craytab]

You have very poor reading comprehension skills...

Ha! See that marci! Turns out, you can't read! Or perhaps it was the massive walls of text.....


Seriously though, 440c is fine. I've had it in a couple blades. Worked great. Would I seek it out like I do my more preferred steels? No. I use what works best for me. These threads and posts putting it on a pedestal with folks foaming at the mouth and posting walls of subjective opinion as fact are getting tiresome.

 

[Lonewolf01]

Ha! See that marci! Turns out, you can't read! Or perhaps it was the massive walls of text.....


Seriously though, 440c is fine. I've had it in a couple blades. Worked great. Would I seek it out like I do my more preferred steels? No. These threads and posts putting it on a pedestal with folks foaming at the mouth and posting walls of subjective opinion as fact are getting tiresome.

I hope those knives were hollow ground.

 

[marcinek]

For Buck, 420HC is the best steel for a $30 hunting knife.

But for me, it may not be. So "best" is meaningless in our context.

You may say apple is the best fruit for pies, Thomas Linton may say cherry, and I may say peach. One cannot rank them or say where blueberry fits among them in any meaningful way, let alone have the chutzpah to create a guide for the layman on them as strategy has.

 

[marcinek]

Ha! See that marci! Turns out, you can't read! Or perhaps it was the massive walls of text.....


Seriously though, 440c is fine. I've had it in a couple blades. Worked great. Would I seek it out like I do my more preferred steels? No. I use what works best for me. These threads and posts putting it on a pedestal with folks foaming at the mouth and posting walls of subjective opinion as fact are getting tiresome.

I'm fine with it too. But AUS-8 is better. You should like it more than 440C.