440C steel--- i think its about time

[strategy9]

If something has to go it's the HC steels, knife related.

It's a good thing that nothing has to go then... I don't shave often, but when I do can still get a buttery smooth shave from an HC straight razor that is more than 100 years old... I can still use 440c or m390, or 420hc, or ELMAX or any other nomenclature steel variety for numerous other cutting chores... what a great time to be alive, (and be a knife knut).

 

[Hashishiin]

How DARE you!!?!?



Srsly tho - I could happily go the rest of my life without using another stainless knife. On the other hand, I would rather give up coffee than go without my carbon steel blades.

Someone left their Cruwear blade in beef blood for 20m without a mark, some of these tool steels are actually pretty stain-resistant. Has been my experience with the steel, too. Never hesitate to carry that steel.

 

[JoeBusic]

If you are saying that after 2 years, carbon steels need to be completely reground, I'm calling B.S.

If so, someone needs to re-evaluate their heat treating.

Believe it or not, and like it or not, carbon steels still have some advantages. Otherwise they would be obsolete and discontinued.

Usage dulls the edge. Edge needs to be sharpened. When it's often the thickness behind the edge is to thick for general use and the blade has to reground to make it thinner. HC dominates in this category. They go fast with usage. If not used why even bother having an opinion about it.
Advantages are price and hamon.

 

[JoeBusic]

Could someone explain what everyone means by "religion"?

Belief without proof and/or proper understanding.

 

[Hashishiin]

I have no experience with 440C but I hate 420HC. It is no good for anything. I have plenty of 420HC "diving" knife and they are soft takes and hold a miserable edge and they rust quite easily. I have replaced my main use diving knives with LC200N Spyderco Waterway and while it was great, I have realised that it not a wise thing to carry a 200$ diving knife as it might lost during a dive easily. Since then I switched the Mora Companion and I am happy. It is not as good as LC200N but great improvement over 420HC. Wear edge retention does not mean much most diving use scenarios, the rust on the edge literally "eats" the edge away. I need to sharpen Mora after every 2-3 dives even if I do not use it to cut anything. Smaller chips on the edge turned bigger chips after 15-20 dives and the edge started to look like a serrated edge but still much better than 420HC. I will but a secondary or micro bevel on the Mora and get done with it. LC200N did not required any sharpening during my 7 months of use as a diving knife unless it was used. And I managed to get by those 7 months just by stropping the factory edge.

Also, do you know Spyderco has a series of knives much cheaper than the Waterway, using LC200N, the Salt series? Mora is great, but these are too, absolutely rustproof, serrated or plain edge, hawkbill, traditional shapes, whatever.

 

[JoeBusic]

It's a good thing that nothing has to go then... I don't shave often, but when I do can still get a buttery smooth shave from an HC straight razor that is more than 100 years old... I can still use 440c or m390, or 420hc, or ELMAX or any other nomenclature steel variety for numerous other cutting chores... what a great time to be alive, (and be a knife knut).

Key point is using not often. When used often things change considerably.

 

[shane45-1911]

Key point is using not often. When used often things change considerably.

That's why there is a whole sub-industry dedicated to making things that can re-sharpen knives......

Every knife in ANY steel gets dull at some point. I don't mind having to touch up higher carbon steel every once in a while. And 1095 sharpens up in seconds.

I'm not sure why you are so strongly opposed to HC steels. If SS is so Godly and all-encompassing, HC steels would have gone away a long time ago.

 

[JoeBusic]

I'm not sure why you are so strongly opposed to HC steels. If SS is so Godly and all-encompassing, HC steels would have gone away a long time ago.

Religion. This is how religious followers think. Even when evidence with great impact on decision making is brought up, fanatics defend them self with their beliefs.
So, to repeat AGAIN. When used purposefully often, tool gets used up. HC gets used up faster. Way faster. Most advances in steel industry is to make it last longer purposefully. In that sense HC's are not practical. Non regular users believe religiously HC rocks. Myths and legends. Bedtime storytelling. Nothing more.

 

[shane45-1911]

Religion. This is how religious followers think. Even when evidence with great impact on decision making is brought up, fanatics defend them self with their beliefs.
So, to repeat AGAIN. When used purposefully often, tool gets used up. HC gets used up faster. Way faster. Most advances in steel industry is to make it last longer purposefully. In that sense HC's are not practical. Non regular users believe religiously HC rocks. Myths and legends. Bedtime storytelling. Nothing more.

That is absolutely ridiculous.

Steel that "lasts longer" is full of compromises. Compromises I am not willing to accept when I need a hard use working knife. So what if I have to sharpen it more often? That certainly outweighs chipped and shattered edges, which is still all-too-common in many stainless knives when used hard in less than ideal conditions, or on less than ideal cutting media.

I guess you don't realize there are dozens of people on this forum that either own - or could afford to own - any production knife made today, in any steel offering. And there are even more people that own and use hundreds of knives in any and every steel possible, and a great percentage of them still prefer HC.

Again, knowing I could use any SS or HC knife I own, please explain to me why you think I (and dozens of others) don't know what works best for me, in my applications, with my choice of edge geometry and HRC in ANY steel I own?

I could use any one of the several dozen supersteel models I own, or any one of the dozens of quality stainless steel knives I have. But when I need a hard use knife for serious outdoor work, I ALWAYS take a higher carbon version. And my knives get used - and occasionally abused - HARD.

So why do you think that is? And don't tell me it is "religion". I could use any knife I want. My real-life 40+ years experiences with dozens of different steel types in hundreds of different outdoor situations and environments is hardly "myth and legend", and I think qualifies me as a "regular" user. I choose HC because it works. Period.

 

[strategy9]

Key point is using not often. When used often things change considerably.

Well, I collect vintage SR's, and considering 140+ years ago, they were the "only" way to shave, and even after the first introduction of the safety razor in the U.S. in the 1880's, straights were still the primary way of shaving for men, particularly barbers, for another 60 years or so, it's safe to say that the old vintage razors I use, which were all purchased used and then sharpened by me, have seen plenty of shaving back in the early 20th century when somebody bought them new... And yet, they still take a hair splitting edge, and still work exactly as intended 100+ years later...
(I have a couple from the 40's, but the vast majority, and all but 1 of my user's, are pre-prohibition era. So pre-1920).

The old scales go long before the blades do. And even as simple HC steels of yesteryear, used in a wet environment, with proper care and maintenance do not rust, but rather patina quite nicely, and with a good edge set only require a good stropping 99% of the time before they actually "need" to hit a very fine stone again...

 

[strategy9]

"Variety is the very spice of life, That gives it all it's flavor."
-William Cowper, circa.1785

 

[dirc]

my choice of HC is cpm-m4 ... with 1.4% carbon it surely qualifies right? only 4% chrome = not stainless....

challenge mr busic to show me how that is religion? its tougher & holds an edge longer than any stainless

(expect him to say its not HC - its high alloy... but imho that is just backtracking)
...
also challenge mr busic to see that perhaps, just perhaps, his view that stainless is the best always = also religion ; )

 

[Mannlicher]

I guess Randall Made knives would have to fold then, since half their knives are made of even worse 440B at about 52RC

 

[JoeBusic]

Religious fanatics! Einsteinian infinity.

 

[Jeeeen!]

I honestly never cared what steel my knife is. I sharpen them so often it doesn't matter much.

I wish they would not stamp the steel type on the blade either.

I like that Chris reeve doesn't do that.

 

[justjed]

About 35 years ago, in a discussion with Blackie Collins, he told me something that has stuck with me, and proven true over the years. There's no such thing as a bad knife steel. There are some steels that don't really make good knives. And, certainly, some steels will outperform others. But, in general, if a steel can be hardened to above about 55RC, it can be fashioned into a perfectly serviceable knife, provided the maker does his part, that being a proper heat treatment and correct geometry for the application.

5160 is old. It's still tougher than hell, easy to sharpen, and holds an edge acceptably well in hard use. Same with L6. And O-1. Ya don't like 440C? Don't buy it. No skin off my nose. But don't try to convince me I can't cut stuff with it cuz it's old.........

 

[I'mSoSharp]

Carbon steel is used heavily in industry for cutting tools & that definitely isn't "religion".

 

[I'mSoSharp]

For those who think HC steels can get a sharper edge: razors are stainless. Surgical blades are stainless. Most industry is using stainless when sharpness and endurance is key.

Simply not true.

A few examples.
Straight razors- Carbon
Stanley knife/craft blades - Carbon.
Surgical blades - some are Carbon, some are Stainless. Leave a scalpel blade wet & see what happens.......
Industry - cutting bits for metal lathes- Carbon
Woodworking tool blades- Carbon

It'd be easy to carry on listing Carbon uses for cutting, Stainless is normally used in food or conditions where Carbon steel would rust otherwise Carbon is the norm.

 

[tinfoil hat timmy]

if it wasn't for differences in opinion we wouldnt have horse races

 

[SomebodySomewhere]

I’m trying my best to ask this honestly, because I truly have nothing against plain carbon steel. The only source I can find that directly compares the toughness of 1095 and 440C is here, and it ranks them exactly the same…3/5.

Best Knife Steel Comparison – Detailed Charts and Suggestions

In an era where you have a thousand and one different knife steels to choose from, you can’t afford to be a steel snob.

www.cherokeeobserver.org

I know this isn’t knifenerds, but it makes intuitive sense to me since they contain the same amount of carbon. Though I know the stainless elements probably cause the 440C edge to chip more. (I have also heard “toughness” is hard to define.)

I admit to not knowing but remain curious about the data (and the experience of people using HC is of course a data point…it’s clear people really like it).

In looking around, this seemed diplomatic…

"There are a lot of fabulous, stainless steels out there that will perform better than a non-stainless steel. It will all depend on the grade of steel and what you are trying to do with it.

That doesn’t mean non-stainless steel is useless. There are still plenty of times when it is the best steel for the job. It’s often a little cheaper to produce, it is generally very tough, and often easier to dress up and sharpen the blade edge. I find this true of tools that are supposed to be cheap and abused - like machetes or bushcraft knives. However, in my opinion, stainless steel is better overall when it comes to pocket knives. It performs as well or better, and requires less maintenance."

Stainless Steel Vs. Non-stainless Steel

This article gives a brief history of carbon steel, non-stainless steel, and stainless steel. It then compares the advantages and disadvantages of stainless vs non-stainless steel. Learn more here!

agrussell.com

My sense continues to be that if I generally rule out price and handcrafting, I can find a steel that is tough enough, reasonably sharpenable and also stainless at the same time. But it does make me curious what a machete made of Magnacut would be like.

Thanks for the opportunity to continue to learn.