440C steel--- i think its about time

SomebodySomewhere said:
I’m trying my best to ask this honestly, because I truly have nothing against plain carbon steel. The only source I can find that directly compares the toughness of 1095 and 440C is here, and it ranks them exactly the same…3/5.

www.cherokeeobserver.org

Best Knife Steel Comparison – Detailed Charts and Suggestions

In an era where you have a thousand and one different knife steels to choose from, you can’t afford to be a steel snob.
www.cherokeeobserver.org www.cherokeeobserver.org

I know this isn’t knifenerds, but it makes intuitive sense to me since they contain the same amount of carbon. Though I know the stainless elements probably cause the 440C edge to chip more. (I have also heard “toughness” is hard to define.)

I admit to not knowing but remain curious about the data (and the experience of people using HC is of course a data point…it’s clear people really like it).

In looking around, this seemed diplomatic…

"There are a lot of fabulous, stainless steels out there that will perform better than a non-stainless steel. It will all depend on the grade of steel and what you are trying to do with it.

That doesn’t mean non-stainless steel is useless. There are still plenty of times when it is the best steel for the job. It’s often a little cheaper to produce, it is generally very tough, and often easier to dress up and sharpen the blade edge. I find this true of tools that are supposed to be cheap and abused - like machetes or bushcraft knives. However, in my opinion, stainless steel is better overall when it comes to pocket knives. It performs as well or better, and requires less maintenance."

agrussell.com

Stainless Steel Vs. Non-stainless Steel

This article gives a brief history of carbon steel, non-stainless steel, and stainless steel. It then compares the advantages and disadvantages of stainless vs non-stainless steel. Learn more here!
agrussell.com agrussell.com

My sense continues to be that if I generally rule out price and handcrafting, I can find a steel that is tough enough, reasonably sharpenable and also stainless at the same time. But it does make me curious what a machete made of Magnacut would be like.

Thanks for the opportunity to continue to learn.
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1095 will generally be tougher than 440C. Carbon content doesn't directly affect toughness, it is more to do with carbide content(and type) and how the carbides are distributed in the micro structure. The heat treatment also has a lot to do with how the micro structure ends up, as well as whether the steel is a PM or regular ingot steel.

1095 is fine for a lot of the knives that use it. The "hard use" knives in 1095 are generally heat treated to be a bit lower on the hardness side which gives it better toughness, and they generally have a fairly robust geometry which helps with strength. It's by no means a super tough steel relatively speaking, though it's better than a lot of steels out there.

This is an over-simplification and not always true, but generally plain carbon steels will be tougher than stainless steels because of the chromium in stainless. Chromium(especially in ingot steels) with carbon will readily form large carbides that reduce toughness, but that isn't always the case. For example AEB-L has a mixture of alloying elements that are basically in the sweet spot of having enough chromium to be quite stainless, but not enough carbon to start forming large clumps of carbides to affect toughness too much. It is generally much tougher than 1095 at normal hardness levels and would perform very well as a chopper for example.
 
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Speaking of real world use and toughness, I was using my Victorinox Floral (chisel-ground Wharncliffe) while weeding my garden, I have some awful stones on the side of my house that I intend to replace with flowers, and I had to get to the root. First time I hit a rock, thought the blade would roll - nope! Hit like 15 rocks gently while cutting out roots, and the blade can still treetop a dandelion with a gentle swipe - no damage, just the tip scores a lil less easily which I can improve in 2secs, and a small, small roll in the mid, also easily swiped right.

The steel, Inox, is said to be similar to a lower 440A, in this ad, and is great!! What with the steel cookin and blade shapes...
vvic.jpg
 
Why do people always compare 1095 to 440C? Then get unhappy when people compare it it to other stainless with better property at lower price...

One of the reason that 440 series is cheaper is because of the availability. It has mass industrial application and not limited to knives and tools or some niche use. This is much like how the "aircraft grade" aluminium is cheap, yet it's one of the better for general use. Still, it doesn't mean that the procedure to make a knife from 440 series is cheaper. Some people here asked why 440C is so expensive from European manufacturers... Well, every time I look at the American 1095 blunt chopper, I ask myself the same question.

AEB-L was made for razor, 420 stainless was used for razor for a long time. Many things you found in antic store in excellent condition in the glass cases are probably stainless.
Wood working, construction, and mechanical tools in stainless are all over the place. Saying that it is limited to carbon is ignorance.
Bits are made of high alloy steels, but since there is only 2 types of steel can exist, carbon and stainless, high alloy is dubbed as carbon.
Same with high impact resistance steel, since they are not stainless, they can only be classed as carbon....... 🤷‍♂️

PM techs doesn't automatically make any steel better as apparently, PM can only makes the carbides so small at a certain point. PM is often used for high alloy steels and some alloy can only be stabilized by this procedure. Plain carbons already have very small carbide, so the benefit is minimal. (unless you want to make knife from a type of plain carbon steel called cast iron. /s).

Hashishiin said:
Speaking of real world use and toughness, I was using my Victorinox Floral (chisel-ground Wharncliffe) while weeding my garden, I have some awful stones on the side of my house that I intend to replace with flowers, and I had to get to the root. First time I hit a rock, thought the blade would roll - nope! Hit like 15 rocks gently while cutting out roots, and the blade can still treetop a dandelion with a gentle swipe - no damage, just the tip scores a lil less easily which I can improve in 2secs, and a small, small roll in the mid, also easily swiped right.

The steel, Inox, is said to be similar to a lower 440A, in this ad, and is great!! What with the steel cookin and blade shapes...
View attachment 1981214
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It is 4116 steel, one of the worst steel according to many people, something that should never be used!!!!!! Yes, it is used in Victorinox knives and the high quality kitchen knives that cost over 100$+ from Wusthof and other prestige brands.
 
Deino said:
It is 4116 steel, one of the worst steel according to many people, something that should never be used!!!!!! Yes, it is used in Victorinox knives and the high quality kitchen knives that cost over 100$+ from Wusthof and other prestige brands.
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Normally would agree, but on the SAK, a lot of which have two blades, scissors and/or saw (sometimes awl that I sharpen, too, and other cutting tools), the cutting capability is good, the idea for some is to keep one razor sharp and the other use often, in case of emergency. I actually prefer the 58mm "Emergency blade".

Anyways, excusable on a multitool that functions so well, is so carryable, is ground right, thin... I can excuse it. I hear they use a modified version of it, but either way, joy to sharpen to a razor edge. I always pair my SAK with a pocket knife when going out, but the humble SAK is a great EDC. They could stand to use 12cr27, sure and true. Heck, I may get a K390 and a VG10 blade on a pair of SAKS just cause I like 'em, but the standard SAK is great.

J jackknife mentioned a guy hiking the entirety of the Appalachian trail, having a SAK Executive (one of the smaller, 74mm SAKs)? That was very cool.
 
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Deino said:
AEB-L was made for razor, 420 stainless was used for razor for a long time. Many things you found in antic store in excellent condition in the glass cases are probably stainless.
Wood working, construction, and mechanical tools in stainless are all over the place. Saying that it is limited to carbon is ignorance.
Bits are made of high alloy steels, but since there is only 2 types of steel can exist, carbon and stainless, high alloy is dubbed as carbon.
Same with high impact resistance steel, since they are not stainless, they can only be classed as carbon....... 🤷‍♂️
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AEB-L, 420HC, LC200N and and 14c28n have toughness up there with the best tough carbon steels.
And the guy is talking pre-1900 razors, I don't think those were stainless.
 
JoeBusic said:
Usage dulls the edge. Edge needs to be sharpened. When it's often the thickness behind the edge is to thick for general use and the blade has to reground to make it thinner. HC dominates in this category. They go fast with usage.
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Yeah I know how knife usage works. But there are countless examples of heavily used carbon steel knives that are years and years (often decades old) that don't need reground. I'm not sure where you're coming up with this nonsense.

JoeBusic said:
If not used why even bother having an opinion about it.
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Again....not sure what you're talking about here.

JoeBusic said:
Advantages are price and hamon.
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There are more advantages than these.
 
BlindMouse2of3 said:
I understand perfectly well, I just figured If we are tossing one good steel and by the same logic should toss all other non 2022 super steels I would offer a safe place for them.

Like all things in life new things come along, it doesn't mean the old things stop working. I shoot a .30-06 and to alot of people it's the same as 440c... Dead. Is it old? Yes it is. Does it work just fine for what it is? Yes it does. There are no secrets left to it. So a company can produce it with zero R&D cost. Whatever you would need to know about the steel can be found on YouTube. That doesn't make it bad

Edit to add: it occurs to me my opinion is probably null and void as I'm sitting here playing sudoku on paper with a pencil....
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what the heck is a pencil?
 
Hashishiin said:
Normally would agree, but on the SAK, a lot of which have two blades, scissors and/or saw (sometimes awl that I sharpen, too, and other cutting tools), the cutting capability is good, the idea for some is to keep one razor sharp and the other use often, in case of emergency. I actually prefer the 58mm "Emergency blade".

Anyways, excusable on a multitool that functions so well, is so carryable, is ground right, thin... I can excuse it. I hear they use a modified version of it, but either way, joy to sharpen to a razor edge. I always pair my SAK with a pocket knife when going out, but the humble SAK is a great EDC. They could stand to use 12cr27, sure and true. Heck, I may get a K390 and a VG10 blade on a pair of SAKS just cause I like 'em, but the standard SAK is great.

J jackknife mentioned a guy hiking the entirety of the Appalachian trail, having a SAK Executive (one of the smaller, 74mm SAKs)? That was very cool.
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I was mocking people thinking 4116 bottom bad. It is a serviceable, capable and user friendly. Most of the 4116 knives are from Europe, about any thing advertised as "German steel" and "Vanadium" blade. Uncommon see China use it, maybe because of the steel weirdly poor reputation, unless used by established brands. It's analog to 425M.
 
Deino said:
…

It is 4116 steel, one of the worst steel according to many people, something that should never be used!!!!!! Yes, it is used in Victorinox knives and the high quality kitchen knives that cost over 100$+ from Wusthof and other prestige brands.
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In all fairness, if your cooked roast or steak is as hard to carve as a block of wood, you need a better cook rather than a better steel.

n2s
 
In the steel discussions I have read on this forum, I have not run across that steel (440B) How does it compare to other premium steels in composition and performance? Where does that formulation sit on the sptrum of blade steels?

U am not a steel head and pretty much only know what I've read on this forum.
 
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OK . . clicked around myself a little bit. ?So, to me, it seems that 4he 440 family of knife steels (A,B, and C)) are not right up there with the newer high alloy, premium blade making steels.

Maybe that is too harsh as a judgment from a non-expert. But I ask, why are most premium knife makers using something else now?
 
MolokaiRider said:
I still use and enjoy 440C, it is a perfectly serviceable steel for general knife use.

I had a gig drywalling and installing insulation a few years back and used a 440C knife to cut both. It surprised me on how well the knife worked, and how easy it was to touch back up.

And it didn't rust.

Sometimes us knife nuts overthink alloys. A good heat treated 440C blade with appropriate geometry for the task can certainly still get a lot of work done.

I also have an old Buck 119 that has done a wonderful job over the years butchering wild game.
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The right knife for the job. It really boils down to that. I’ve had a lot of knives over the years. I field dressed a lot of deer with the Randals and cleaned a lot of small game with just my pocket knife. I skin a quarter with Victorinox butcher knife. All different steels. They were all good for what I was doing. Oh if I were fighting I wouldn’t bring a knife to a gun fight 🤔
 
1095 is mentioned a lot here, and I have some knives in that steel that work well enough. But what really, really impressed me recently was a small, cheap scandi blade in 80CrV2 (made by Lauri of Finland and available for under $10) that I had thinned out to a very fine edge. Hours of woodworking and it did not faze the edge in the least. Don't think any of my stainless blades would've held up as well with that geometry.
 
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