440C steel--- i think its about time

Sometimes getting a good edge is useing the right honed and the right angle. For knives with 4 inches or so the lansky honing kit works well or at least it does for me
 
For a using knife, I don't particularly dislike any good knife steel, and I have several in 440C. It was a good all-around knife steel in the 70s and 80s because it's a known quantity. It grinds easily enough, and has a relatively easy, very repeatable, heat-treatment protocol, so it was easy for new makers to get started making quality blades, in less time. It's still the same steel, and still as good as ever. Maybe better, with the advent of cryogenic treatments. If it doesn't work for you, move to a different steel. 14C28N is an even better alloy than 440C, and VG-10 has a good reputation for taking a very fine edge without too much trouble.
 
ShaiHulud said:
It's about time we finally can the steel, am I right?
People say it's all in the heat treatment. However
At the additional price point, you are better off buying serviceable 154CM. Thoughts?
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“I refuse to be caressed by stone.
I now live emotionless and free from your pain.
My heart bleeds the darkest blood.”
 
VorpelSword said:
Is 440 useful for forging or is it best used in stock removal?
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most stainless knives are from stock removal....
while it's technically possible to hand forge 440c, you need it up over 1900F (to hammer work it and not have it crack on you) - that is like 4-500F higher than carbon steel requires, and it actually makes a serious difference in how much protective gear you need

(also need well ventilated area or fans & outside air due to off-gassing, 'ideally' a ventilation mask setup)

as a result, most places don't hand forge stainless
 
I am a crazy person who bought a $400 custom lockback knife with a 440c blade 5 years ago. Design is kind of like a better Buck 112, but thinner, pivot bushing, stainless liners with integral bolsters. Nice thin edge.

It's a great blade, mirror finish, 60RC so it holds that fine edge. Even though it has mastodon scales, since they are stabilized by Turnage I use it w/o fear in the kitchen. It's taken out the backs of many a chicken. Never chipped or rolled on bone. Mirror polish+Cr means it keeps that mirror polish. I run it across a Case medium stone a few times every so often, but it reaaly doesn't need it. 440C is great steel, worthy of any maker.

Original Dave Shirley Northwoods 1095 doesn't hold up even close. Scagel reproduction with a custom Scandi grind. Edge+moisture+lower RC=frequent need for sharpening. I like shiny knives, patina is not for me :)

Yes Viginia it is religion :)
 
Steel snobs get so worked up about steels and their composition, when the people who actually use their knives for a living (butchers, fish mongers, etc) have knives that are made from the most basic steels. Have you seen what the fish mongers in India use? A piece of flat bar mild steel, beaten into the shape of a knife in a crude forge and "heat treated" by heating it up in said forge and quenched in water. They don't even bother putting scales on the handles and they are sharpened with a file.

440C is fine
 
ShaiHulud said:
I see people here have great things to observe about 440c, I when only speaking of my own findings is that I dull the steel relatively quickly after few use applications and never can get it back up to a serviceable edge--- I also read its hard-er to sharpen
Sandvik 12C27 and 14C28N I have excellent time with
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I apologize if I asked this before... it's late and I'm pretty tired unwinding from a full day...

What are you using to sharpen with? What technique are you using? Have you tried stressing the edge apex flat on a rough stone to remove potentially burnt steel, and tried going from there as a new starting point?
 
emjay said:
Steel snobs get so worked up about steels and their composition, when the people who actually use their knives for a living (butchers, fish mongers, etc) have knives that are made from the most basic steels. Have you seen what the fish mongers in India use? A piece of flat bar mild steel, beaten into the shape of a knife in a crude forge and "heat treated" by heating it up in said forge and quenched in water. They don't even bother putting scales on the handles and they are sharpened with a file.

440C is fine
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Yessir, we are lucky to have what we have. I literally just a page or two back relayed a story of my Victorinox edge (considered below 440A) holding up extremely well after hitting stones and pebbles, a real experience I had just done, and the first reply was "That steel is awful and useless! It should never be used in knives etc etc" like... he didn't just read about a success with the steel 😂
 
Hashishiin said:
Yessir, we are lucky to have what we have. I literally just a page or two back relayed a story of my Victorinox edge (considered below 440A) holding up extremely well after hitting stones and pebbles, a real experience I had just done, and the first reply was "That steel is awful and useless! It should never be used in knives etc etc" like... he didn't just read about a success with the steel 😂
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It was a sarcasms... I was even asking on Larrin pinned thread to retest it because I believe that it is better than what his chart shows.
 
Deino said:
It was a sarcasms... I was even asking on Larrin pinned thread to retest it because I believe that it is better than what his chart shows.
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I am sorry, my notifications are screwy and I only just saw your reply to me by scrolling backward in the thread, your point is agreeable, haha, I had just initially misinterpreted you.
 
SomebodySomewhere said:
Sorry to keep beating on this, but I did find a knife nerds source here that also lists 440C and 1095 as having identical toughness. But 440C also has much higher edge retention, plus stainlessness. So again, it’s hard for me to see why I would choose carbon steel between these two. 440C is actually also cheaper, even if it is due to mass production. I understand I’m probably not going to get a handcrafted 440C blade for the same price I can get a handcrafted 1095 blade for, of course.

knifesteelnerds.com

Knife Steels Rated by a Metallurgist - Toughness, Edge Retention, and Corrosion Resistance - Knife Steel Nerds

Steel Metallurgist Larrin Thomas uses tests of knife steels to rate the steels and explains the factors that control performance.
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com

Edit: “Cheaper” probably isn’t right. Maybe “equal.”

Edit again: Poor reading skills on my part. 440C = 3.5. 1095 = 4.5. 4.5 is higher than 3.5. But 3.5 still doesn’t seem bad given much higher edge retention and stainlessness. Anyway, not here to beat up on 1095 or claim 440C is the best thing ever, just trying to understand.
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I would interpret that scale as 4.5(out of 10) being average, maybe slightly subpar in the grand scheme of things and 3.5 being somewhat poor. That's just my interpretation anyway.

To be honest, I don't really care too much, within reason, what steel a knife has. If I like the knife, I like the knife. I think both 1095 and 440C are both fine. If you would rather a stainless steel then there are plenty of options out there
 
ShaiHulud said:
I see people here have great things to observe about 440c, I when only speaking of my own findings is that I dull the steel relatively quickly after few use applications and never can get it back up to a serviceable edge--- I also read its hard-er to sharpen
Sandvik 12C27 and 14C28N I have excellent time with
Click to expand...
How many knives have you used in 440C? It's possible you have a knife that was not heat treated properly, or the factory edge may have been damaged from excessive heat.

A good example of 440C should be noticeably better for edge retention than 12C27 at least, and probably equal or better than 14C28N as well.
 
Deino said:
I believe that you get it wrong a bit here. Nitrogen does helps in refinement, but Vanex and LC200N has very low amount of carbon, which already help to get finer carbides. The low amount of carbide also reflex on their lower wear resistance on Catra test. MagnaCut "secret ingredient", stated in Larrin's video, is more about Nitrogen than Vanadium.

High Vanadium is not that much different from Chromium when you reach similar carbine carbide volume. The better example would be Crucibles steels with V suffix (S60V, S90V, S30V, S110V, 15V). Not all of them are stainless, they have very high vanadium. For some of them, without the PM tech, they are unachievable because of huge carbide clumps. The "carbon vanadium" only have similar toughness to chromium stainless. As someone mentioned earlier, forging a PM steel will likely cancel out all of the PM benefit.
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Yes I agree as carbide content gets higher the size of the carbides tend to get larger. That's why I said generally speaking as I was not comparing one steel against another with similar carbide volume. But if you look at Vanax, MagnaCut, S30V and 4V which I believe have similar carbide volumes (if I remember correctly) you will notice that the carbides in Vanax, MagnaCut and 4V is much more refined compared with S30V. Furthermore, if you look at the high chromium carbides (e.g. S60V) with similar carbide fraction you will see that chromium carbide steels have those large chunk of carbides whereas vanadium ones would be more refined. Even if both steels are SS you can still see the difference. For instance, compare S30V to S35V and then compare both to MagnaCut, Vanax and 4V and you will see the difference. Knifesteelnerds have all of those microstructure figures.
 
dirc said:
most stainless knives are from stock removal....
while it's technically possible to hand forge 440c, you need it up over 1900F (to hammer work it and not have it crack on you) - that is like 4-500F higher than carbon steel requires, and it actually makes a serious difference in how much protective gear you need

(also need well ventilated area or fans & outside air due to off-gassing, 'ideally' a ventilation mask setup)

as a result, most places don't hand forge stainless
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Sounds complicated and tricky.

With all that, it is a wonder how any large scale, semi-production maker can get a years' worth of stainless blades forged using a 440 steel.
 
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Swp321 said:
“I refuse to be caressed by stone.
I now live emotionless and free from your pain.
My heart bleeds the darkest blood.”
Click to expand...
Death, pierce through me for
My heart is of sculpted ivy
and of stone flowers

What is this, the haiku thread now?
 
No the op’s name is Shaihulud. They are an old school 90’s 00’s metalcore band. That’s just one of the lines to one of their popular songs. And also yes I’m aware the name is attached to the dune movie as well.
 
Swp321 said:
No the op’s name is Shaihulud. They are an old school 90’s 00’s metalcore band. That’s just one of the lines to one of their popular songs. And also yes I’m aware the name is attached to the dune movie as well.
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Well, it goes without saying that a sandworm tooth is the best blade material of all, bar none.
 
But it must be kept within the body's electrical field, lest the blade begin to disintegrate at the molecular level, leading to chipping, and the eventual shattering of said blade...
 
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