Recommendation? 440C vs D2 steel for a Ganzo knife?

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Chronovore said:
The D2 knives seem consistent. A point that's been made elsewhere is that the D2 knives with original designs represent Ganzo's step into "legitimacy". BTW, that FH11 is the Ganzo I have. I got it when it first came out. I've had it apart once for a full cleaning and lubrication. The action and lock-up on mine are still just as good as in the video. Having done some sharpening and modification, I believe those hardness values for the D2.

AFAIK, there was only one case of the 440C being 8Cr13Mov. I have to wonder if there was a supply chain issue or something where they substituted without changing the stamp. That being said, how much difference is there between Ganzo's 440C and your average 8Cr13Mov? Having tried 8Cr13Mov from a bunch of manufacturers, it's mediocre but fairly consistent. On the other hand, 440C seems hugely variable. I've had good 440C on more expensive knives and I've had really bad 440C on cheap knives.
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Oh, just stop it.
"original designs represent Ganzo's step into 'legitimacy'.." Really?!?!
When will you figure out this argument holds absolutely zero water. You continue to heap praise on the company for this one line of knives as a beginning to their redemption while refusing to admit that their primary source of income is still coming from stealing other companies' designs.
It's like defending a mob boss, or drug lord by saying that because he donates money to church we should forgive him all his other misdeeds.
 
And I bet Ganzo uses 8cr on a LOT of 440c labeled knives. I remember spyderco had knives labeled 440c from China, and when they didn't perform like expected they tested them and it came out to be 8cr. But Ganzo isn't in the business of telling the truth, they just want to sell you a cheap knife and steal designs.

I like 8cr though. Stuff gets stupid sharp stupid easy and will last a long time for most people.

Also, don't praise enlan either. They blatantly copy others work as well. Just look up their 456 model. I don't think I have to explain where that design came from...
 
NorthernSouthpaw said:
Oh, just stop it.
"original designs represent Ganzo's step into 'legitimacy'.." Really?!?!
When will you figure out this argument holds absolutely zero water. You continue to heap praise on the company for this one line of knives as a beginning to their redemption while refusing to admit that their primary source of income is still coming from stealing other companies' designs.
It's like defending a mob boss, or drug lord by saying that because he donates money to church we should forgive him all his other misdeeds.
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It is extremely rude to mischaracterize a person's position or to put words in their mouth. It also makes it tough to trust any claims you make about whose arguments "hold water".
 
Chronovore said:
It is extremely rude to mischaracterize a person's position or to put words in their mouth. It also makes it tough to trust any claims you make about whose arguments "hold water".
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You are absolutely right. It is rude to do either. Which is why I have not. I do apologize for being a bit brusque though.
One: I quoted you. How is that putting words into your mouth.
Two: mischaracterize? This whole turning over a new leaf thing has been your primary argument in support of Ganzo for quite some time now. Along with the stance that due to geopolitical circumstances we need to understand that IP is a very murky subject.
Contrary to how you obviously perceive yourself and certain members of this forum. You are not Atticus Finch, and we are not the unwashed, uneducated lynch mob come to hang your client in effigy.

It is a disagreement due to two completely different points of view. On a large scale (global economy), you have very valid points and I agree with quite a bit of what you have said in the past. However this is about a very specific subject and a very specific brand, in a very VERY small community. Not a microcosm of the current geopolitical landscape. Because knives are a hobby we have the luxury to choose not to buy from brands that are known to steal IP. It really is that simple.
 
Chronovore said:
The D2 knives seem consistent. A point that's been made elsewhere is that the D2 knives with original designs represent Ganzo's step into "legitimacy". BTW, that FH11 is the Ganzo I have. I got it when it first came out. I've had it apart once for a full cleaning and lubrication. The action and lock-up on mine are still just as good as in the video. Having done some sharpening and modification, I believe those hardness values for the D2.

AFAIK, there was only one case of the 440C being 8Cr13Mov. I have to wonder if there was a supply chain issue or something where they substituted without changing the stamp. That being said, how much difference is there between Ganzo's 440C and your average 8Cr13Mov? Having tried 8Cr13Mov from a bunch of manufacturers, it's mediocre but fairly consistent. On the other hand, 440C seems hugely variable. I've had good 440C on more expensive knives and I've had really bad 440C on cheap knives.
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Ganzo can't step into "legitimacy" till they address their past bad behavior.

I can't say how that could look but I know that for people in the knife industry and the majority of the members here we would not want their knives, or sit down at the same table as them until the demonstrate contrition and pay back the holders of the IP they've stolen.
 
Chronovore said:
The D2 knives seem consistent. A point that's been made elsewhere is that the D2 knives with original designs represent Ganzo's step into "legitimacy". BTW, that FH11 is the Ganzo I have. I got it when it first came out. I've had it apart once for a full cleaning and lubrication. The action and lock-up on mine are still just as good as in the video. Having done some sharpening and modification, I believe those hardness values for the D2.

AFAIK, there was only one case of the 440C being 8Cr13Mov. I have to wonder if there was a supply chain issue or something where they substituted without changing the stamp. That being said, how much difference is there between Ganzo's 440C and your average 8Cr13Mov? Having tried 8Cr13Mov from a bunch of manufacturers, it's mediocre but fairly consistent. On the other hand, 440C seems hugely variable. I've had good 440C on more expensive knives and I've had really bad 440C on cheap knives.
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I don't think I'd be able to tell the difference between 440C and 8Cr13MoV. In fact, I'd wager that most people view 8Cr as the "default" budget steel for Chinese-made knives, so unless the 440 performed radically better or worse than expected, you'd never notice unless you did a steel analysis.

NorthernSouthpaw said:
You are absolutely right. It is rude to do either. Which is why I have not. I do apologize for being a bit brusque though.
One: I quoted you. How is that putting words into your mouth.
Two: mischaracterize? This whole turning over a new leaf thing has been your primary argument in support of Ganzo for quite some time now. Along with the stance that due to geopolitical circumstances we need to understand that IP is a very murky subject.
Contrary to how you obviously perceive yourself and certain members of this forum. You are not Atticus Finch, and we are not the unwashed, uneducated lynch mob come to hang your client in effigy.

It is a disagreement due to two completely different points of view. On a large scale (global economy), you have very valid points and I agree with quite a bit of what you have said in the past. However this is about a very specific subject and a very specific brand, in a very VERY small community. Not a microcosm of the current geopolitical landscape. Because knives are a hobby we have the luxury to choose not to buy from brands that are known to steal IP. It really is that simple.
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You do realize that the "legitimacy" comment was preceded by "a point that's been made elsewhere," which points to it being something someone else has said. Jumping on his case for quoting someone else and following it up with "I quoted you" is very questionable.
 
Here is a simple yes or no question for anyone to answer but preferably those who support Ganzo.

Does Ganzo still make and sell knives which would be clones of other manufacturers w/o credit and/or agreement to license that design of feature?
 
A couple of my friends are always asking to see what I have in my pockets. They don’t necessarily know what I’m handing them (their knowledge is limited to what is seen in store displays), but I do, and there’d be no pride in showing off a Ganzo.
 
There's a disconnect between two perspectives of the anti-Ganzo argument, both of which are avid about knives and the hobby in general. The objection to Ganzo (and others like them) often gets confusing between these two sides.

One side of the anti-Ganzo faction dislikes Ganzo because they are a Chinese knife. They would equally dislike a Byrd, WE, Reate or Kizer. They are motivated for their own reasons (politics, patriotism, bigotry, etc) to not buy or support knives that originate in China. They might be fine with Ganzo if they came from Oregon City, Laguiole, Solingen, Sheffield, Maniago or Seki. Well, maybe not Seki if the reasons are based in bigotry, but I digress.

The other side of the anti-Ganzo faction, one which I consider myself part of, dislikes Ganzo because of their history of stolen designs, features, IP and styles. This faction will also tend to dislike Ganzo for quality issues.

What gets tricky is keeping track of each side. When someone speaks out against Ganzo, it's important to determine the reasons and perspective for the objection. It's unfair to assume a critic of Ganzo is a China hating inbred, thereby dismissing their arguments. Likewise, those who object to Ganzo for more personal reasons need to be respected. It's their own money, after all. Short of proven bigotry, I have no right to judge someone for not buying a knife based on point of origin.

That's why these threads always seem to turn into a cluster. Between genuine questioners, outright shills, clone supporters, people seeking to justify a moderate stand, anti-cloners and anti-china knifers it's hard to separate one group from another and the dumpster invariably ignites. We can all help by going out of our way to speak clearly and calmly and try to have a good discord. A random Google searcher might be called to one of these threads and we should do all we can to keep them clear and civil while providing good info.

That being said, my opinion (as if I have given it ad nauseam, lol)
Ganzo = bad
Redemption Arc = can begin 5 years after a knife using stolen features or style is sold. Until we reach that point, there's not much point talking about it in my opinion.
 
Hackenslash said:
There's a disconnect between two perspectives of the anti-Ganzo argument, both of which are avid about knives and the hobby in general. The objection to Ganzo (and others like them) often gets confusing between these two sides.

One side of the anti-Ganzo faction dislikes Ganzo because they are a Chinese knife. They would equally dislike a Byrd, WE, Reate or Kizer. They are motivated for their own reasons (politics, patriotism, bigotry, etc) to not buy or support knives that originate in China. They might be fine with Ganzo if they came from Oregon City, Laguiole, Solingen, Sheffield, Maniago or Seki. Well, maybe not Seki if the reasons are based in bigotry, but I digress.

The other side of the anti-Ganzo faction, one which I consider myself part of, dislikes Ganzo because of their history of stolen designs, features, IP and styles. This faction will also tend to dislike Ganzo for quality issues.

What gets tricky is keeping track of each side. When someone speaks out against Ganzo, it's important to determine the reasons and perspective for the objection. It's unfair to assume a critic of Ganzo is a China hating inbred, thereby dismissing their arguments. Likewise, those who object to Ganzo for more personal reasons need to be respected. It's their own money, after all. Short of proven bigotry, I have no right to judge someone for not buying a knife based on point of origin.

That's why these threads always seem to turn into a cluster. Between genuine questioners, outright shills, clone supporters, people seeking to justify a moderate stand, anti-cloners and anti-china knifers it's hard to separate one group from another and the dumpster invariably ignites. We can all help by going out of our way to speak clearly and calmly and try to have a good discord. A random Google searcher might be called to one of these threads and we should do all we can to keep them clear and civil while providing good info.

That being said, my opinion (as if I have given it ad nauseam, lol)
Ganzo = bad
Redemption Arc = can begin 5 years after a knife using stolen features or style is sold. Until we reach that point, there's not much point talking about it in my opinion.
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Honestly, for me and probably many others, it's both. I've said it before, and I have no qualms about doing so again: I don't like Chinese knives, don't like anything about them. I don't buy them if I can help it. It's much in the same manner as the fact that I wouldn't be friends with a neighbor who was always stealing from me, or working actively at odds with my well-being. I don't care if he's doing it to feed his children. It's pretty simple in my mind, so I just don't buy them. There have been a ton of knives that I really like the design of, or like the maker, but when I find out they were made in China, that's an immediate (and permanent) hard pass for me. I can do without, or save up for the actual custom version of that maker's work.

Secondly, as far as I'm concerned, there is no redemption arc for thieves like Ganzo. I don't NEED any more knives. If suddenly no more knives at all were made here (or in a friendly country like Italy, Switzerland, etc.), I wouldn't die if I never bought another knife in my life. At the end of the day, these are luxury items. It's bad enough that most necessary items in my life have to be purchased from China because we don't make those things anymore. I don't have a choice there other than "Have the thing I need or do without".

But knives? Heh, no. I don't buy knives from China, and I damn sure won't ever spend a single cent of my money with a company who got their start stealing from others, most of whom were my fellow Americans. Simple as that. If anyone thinks less of me for my point of view, that's fine with me. It doesn't concern me in the least.
 
Quiet said:
Honestly, for me and probably many others, it's both. I've said it before, and I have no qualms about doing so again: I don't like Chinese knives, don't like anything about them. I don't buy them if I can help it. It's much in the same manner as the fact that I wouldn't be friends with a neighbor who was always stealing from me, or working actively at odds with my well-being. I don't care if he's doing it to feed his children. It's pretty simple in my mind, so I just don't buy them. There have been a ton of knives that I really like the design of, or like the maker, but when I find out they were made in China, that's an immediate (and permanent) hard pass for me. I can do without, or save up for the actual custom version of that maker's work.

Secondly, as far as I'm concerned, there is no redemption arc for thieves like Ganzo. I don't NEED any more knives. If suddenly no more knives at all were made here (or in a friendly country like Italy, Switzerland, etc.), I wouldn't die if I never bought another knife in my life. At the end of the day, these are luxury items. It's bad enough that most necessary items in my life have to be purchased from China because we don't make those things anymore. I don't have a choice there other than "Have the thing I need or do without".

But knives? Heh, no. I don't buy knives from China, and I damn sure won't ever spend a single cent of my money with a company who got their start stealing from others, most of whom were my fellow Americans. Simple as that. If anyone thinks less of me for my point of view, that's fine with me. It doesn't concern me in the least.
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I guess I shouldn't have made it sound like it was "either/or" for disliking Ganzo. You're probably right that the majority of those who object have some level of both viewpoints. I may be in the minority by being OK in general with Chinese knives but vehemently opposed to Ganzo.
 
Hackenslash said:
There's a disconnect between two perspectives of the anti-Ganzo argument, both of which are avid about knives and the hobby in general. The objection to Ganzo (and others like them) often gets confusing between these two sides.

One side of the anti-Ganzo faction dislikes Ganzo because they are a Chinese knife. They would equally dislike a Byrd, WE, Reate or Kizer. They are motivated for their own reasons (politics, patriotism, bigotry, etc) to not buy or support knives that originate in China. They might be fine with Ganzo if they came from Oregon City, Laguiole, Solingen, Sheffield, Maniago or Seki. Well, maybe not Seki if the reasons are based in bigotry, but I digress.

The other side of the anti-Ganzo faction, one which I consider myself part of, dislikes Ganzo because of their history of stolen designs, features, IP and styles. This faction will also tend to dislike Ganzo for quality issues.

What gets tricky is keeping track of each side. When someone speaks out against Ganzo, it's important to determine the reasons and perspective for the objection. It's unfair to assume a critic of Ganzo is a China hating inbred, thereby dismissing their arguments. Likewise, those who object to Ganzo for more personal reasons need to be respected. It's their own money, after all. Short of proven bigotry, I have no right to judge someone for not buying a knife based on point of origin.

That's why these threads always seem to turn into a cluster. Between genuine questioners, outright shills, clone supporters, people seeking to justify a moderate stand, anti-cloners and anti-china knifers it's hard to separate one group from another and the dumpster invariably ignites. We can all help by going out of our way to speak clearly and calmly and try to have a good discord. A random Google searcher might be called to one of these threads and we should do all we can to keep them clear and civil while providing good info.

That being said, my opinion (as if I have given it ad nauseam, lol)
Ganzo = bad
Redemption Arc = can begin 5 years after a knife using stolen features or style is sold. Until we reach that point, there's not much point talking about it in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Somehow, threads seeking an opinion on random Microtech knives don't devolve into discourse about how evil Marfione is for stealing IP; that sort of thing seems to be reserved for Ganzo. This phenomenon leads me to believe that IP theft is just a convenient pretext for the real reason people are biased against Ganzo.

A related issue is that there is very little, if any, actual legal protection available for knife design. In the US, you can't copyright a knife design or an element thereof unless it's purely decorative. Trademarks have a similar requirement against "functional" features. As functional items, once your patent expires, your IP is fair game. And, of course, a US Patent doesn't do anything to protect you overseas. So, if there's no legal issue, it's got to be a moral objection to this sort of thing. If it is, in fact a moral issue, giving Marfione and Microtech a pass is hypocritical.
 
OrangeBlueOrangeBlue said:
Somehow, threads seeking an opinion on random Microtech knives don't devolve into discourse about how evil Marfione is for stealing IP; that sort of thing seems to be reserved for Ganzo. This phenomenon leads me to believe that IP theft is just a convenient pretext for the real reason people are biased against Ganzo.

A related issue is that there is very little, if any, actual legal protection available for knife design. In the US, you can't copyright a knife design or an element thereof unless it's purely decorative. Trademarks have a similar requirement against "functional" features. As functional items, once your patent expires, your IP is fair game. And, of course, a US Patent doesn't do anything to protect you overseas. So, if there's no legal issue, it's got to be a moral objection to this sort of thing. If it is, in fact a moral issue, giving Marfione and Microtech a pass is hypocritical.
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sniff, sniff, is that "Whataboutism" I smell?
 
Quiet said:
sniff, sniff, is that "Whataboutism" I smell?
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Not at all, because I'm not trying to justify or diminish what Ganzo does by referencing Microtech. I don't buy either from either of them, because they're in the same boat. But I guarantee there are posters on this site that slam Ganzo for "IP theft" while happily buying Microtechs (whether because they're ignorant of Marfione's "borrowing," they're hypocrites, or they're using it as a way to slam Ganzo without just saying they don't buy Chinese knives).

I don't care really care if someone does or doesn't buy Chinese knives (although I will definitely challenge someone who ignorantly makes blanket statements about the poor quality of Chinese knives). I don't care someone buys a clone (in fact, I hope Ontario makes their own version of Ganzo's Axis-lock RAT hybrid). But if someone takes a particular company to task for "stealing IP" while happily buying from a different IP thief, I think that's worth pointing out.

Again, "whataboutism" is about deflecting the guilt of one party using someone else's guilt, which wasn't the point of my post. I'm questioning whether the people who have a moral objection to Ganzo are using it as a pretext for their anti-Ganzo stance, and if the moral objection is the real reason, whether they apply that thinking consistently.
 
OrangeBlueOrangeBlue said:
Not at all, because I'm not trying to justify or diminish what Ganzo does by referencing Microtech. I don't buy either from either of them, because they're in the same boat. But I guarantee there are posters on this site that slam Ganzo for "IP theft" while happily buying Microtechs (whether because they're ignorant of Marfione's "borrowing," they're hypocrites, or they're using it as a way to slam Ganzo without just saying they don't buy Chinese knives).

I don't care really care if someone does or doesn't buy Chinese knives (although I will definitely challenge someone who ignorantly makes blanket statements about the poor quality of Chinese knives). I don't care someone buys a clone (in fact, I hope Ontario makes their own version of Ganzo's Axis-lock RAT hybrid). But if someone takes a particular company to task for "stealing IP" while happily buying from a different IP thief, I think that's worth pointing out.

Again, "whataboutism" is about deflecting the guilt of one party using someone else's guilt, which wasn't the point of my post. I'm questioning whether the people who have a moral objection to Ganzo are using it as a pretext for their anti-Ganzo stance, and if the moral objection is the real reason, whether they apply that thinking consistently.
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I searched through Hackenslash Hackenslash 's post that you quoted and didn't see a single mention of Microtech. Is there a discussion of Microtechs somewhere else in this thread?
 
I keep saying:
"Buy nice or buy twice"
"You get what you pay for"
"I'm not rich to buy cheap stuff"

Next to all these reputable companies who have decent budget line products I can't see reason to go after a company which basically cloned some other company's design and is also not always being honest with steel they use. This is zero reputation in my eyes and I wouldn't want to give my money to such people.

Imagine if you made something and then you noticed that your business is suffering because someone is making knock-offs or clones of your product?

Also, I can't see how is any folder better gardening option than a simple, cheap and proven Mora.

Folder will get dirt and all nasty stuff inside and it'll definitley schratch up it's insides, not to mention lack of durability and sthrenght for more serious tasks, and risk of the blade folding on your fingers.
 
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